What would Dirk's Mavs have looked like if he had 80s Celtics equivalent teammates? Bird's teammates had 22 all-star appearances during his 13 year career. Dirk's teammates have 6 in his first 13 years.

Kevin McHale = Paul Pierce

Robert Parish = Marcus Camby

Dennis Johnson = Chauncey Billups

2001=1980:
Camby
Dirk
Pierce
Cedric Maxwell/Tiny Archibald/Danny Ainge equivalent
Chauncey

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 1/10/2012 1:09a).]

This thread is why I continue to come to this board. The fail in some of your arguments is fantastic.

Person 1: not saying dirk is better than bird, but don't you think they're in similar conversation now?

Person 2: OMG HAVE YOU SEEN DUNCAN'S RINGS?

Person 3: dirk is not better than bird! Have you seen my stat list?

Person 1: wtf?

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Some are obviously still playing, but I would take any of the current players I listed over Dirk.

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That's what you said. Don't try and rope me in to some argument someone else made and then try and hold me to it. That's a pathetic attempt at deflection.

If you would seriously take the careers of players like Dwight Howard or even a 2-time MVP like Nash over Dirk, you're simply a hater or don't know basketball.

But I guess that's just Guitarsoup having reading problems (on top of sensitivity issues), as usual.

I didn't say I would take their careers, I said I would take the players.

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Bird is top 10 all time. Dirk is borderline top 50

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I see. The "moving the goalpost" tactic. Another staple.

How can you define players across different eras? You look at their body of work.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 1/10/2012 9:31a).]

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Adjust for pace and the Dirk vs Bird stats aren't so far off. Many more shots taken in the 80s. But stats are for losers. There's 10 players all-time with 10 All-NBA selections, an MVP and a Finals MVP. Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Dirk, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt. That list transcends stats and show sustained greatness along with great single seasons. Add in some old-timers and some that fell a little short on the hardware and Dirk is still a top 20 all-time player. And he's still in his prime.

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Just re-posting from what IF said. That's the company that Dirk keeps, and those guys would all be top 10-15 on a list of all time players.

I guess you can take Dwight Howard as a player over Dirk though, whatever the hell that means.

Guitarsoup...you would take Nash over Dirk when starting a team?

I did overlook Bash, but an argument could be made based on 2 mvp and 5? Assist titles.
I was thinking more Durant, lebron, Howard.

If you want to judge based on who you would start a team with, dirk could drop some. I was judging based on overall game.

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Durant, lebron

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Dirk outplayed both of those guys last year, in the playoffs, at age 32.

And you, me and everyone else would trade dirk for either player.

At this point in their careers yes, but to say that it's a slam dunk to take an even worse defender in Durant over an same age Dirk is silly.

I also think it's impressive that dirk is 17th all time in Free throws attempted already. This is not a stat that comes from a guy who just shoots jump shots.

Are you talking about right now? Uhh yeah, if I was a GM I would trade a 33 year old Dirk for Durant, Lebron in their primes.

But earlier you were talking about all-time. So now you're talking about right now? Or you're not talking about what they've accomplished in their careers (a pretty decent measure of who they are as players), you're talking about every player in their prime, and pitting their skills against the other.

In that case no, I would not take Lebron or Durant over Dirk. I'll take the unguardable big with a dreamshake-esque set of unique jumper moves, who's a solid rebounder (and elevates his ability in the playoffs), has become a much better passer in the last half of his career (I know you like to cite stats, and no he's not as good a passer as Bird, but the last 4-5 years he's really learned how to move the ball when the defense immediately collapses on him), and has proven that he can take on the best the NBA has to offer (those guys you would take over him) while being the only All-NBA player on the team, and win a championship.

Dirk has proved it on the court. Those guys haven't. That was Dirk's knock right? How come that standard does not apply to them?

I think Dirk's defense keeps him out of the top 15. To me, he's a top 25 player.

At any point in either career, I would take Durant over Dirk without thinking twice.

If you could start a team in 2012 with a 20-year old Dirk or 20-year old Durant, I choose Durant every time.

Durant has two scoring titles and is just below Dirk in FG and 3FG for his career (about .020 behind in each, despite his somewhat weak rookie year being 25% of his career).

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At this point in their careers yes, but to say that it's a slam dunk to take an even worse defender in Durant over an same age Dirk is silly.

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SI seems to think that Durant's D is improving greatly, but what do they know?

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By any measure, the guy has suddenly become a stalwart individual and team defender.

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Or you're not talking about what they've accomplished in their careers (a pretty decent measure of who they are as players), you're talking about every player in their prime, and pitting their skills against the other.

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Why judging the best, why not take into account both skills and accomplishments?

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I'll take the unguardable big with a dreamshake-esque set of unique jumper moves, who's a solid rebounder (and elevates his ability in the playoffs), has become a much better passer in the last half of his career (I know you like to cite stats, and no he's not as good a passer as Bird, but the last 4-5 years he's really learned how to move the ball when the defense immediately collapses on him), and has proven that he can take on the best the NBA has to offer (those guys you would take over him) while being the only All-NBA player on the team, and win a championship.

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Really? So his really great fadeaway is enough to take him over two guys who are better scorers than Dirk ever was? Both are better

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Dirk has proved it on the court. Those guys haven't. That was Dirk's knock right? How come that standard does not apply to them?

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It does. But Durant is 23 and Bron is 27. They have a lot of career left, so you have to weigh their abilities heavier than their accomplishments. They just don't have the same decade+ body of work to judge accomplishments like you can with Dirk. Dirk could surprise us all, but I don't think he is winning another title this year, just like I think Duncan is done with all his big awards and titles.

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Why judging the best, why not take into account both skills and accomplishments?

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Okay... Dirk wins. By a lot.

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Really? So his really great fadeaway is enough to take him over two guys who are better scorers than Dirk ever was? Both are better

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Lebron lights up the scoreboard when he's playing the Kings and Raptors. If only he could do that when it matters.

Oh, that's right, he played really well when he was the lone star on a Finals team... but couldn't win the championship. Do we know of someone else who did, though? And it was AGAINST the person we're talking about?

But you're right, he played a Spurs team that was one of the best ever. No team with just one All-NBAer could have beaten that Spurs team in a 7 game series... err wait a minute. Oh...

Durant is a hell of a scorer. A great talent and he fills up the stat sheet. As defenders they're about the same. But again, Dirk averages 25 and 10 in the playoffs, one of 4 people in the history of the game to do that. And we saw them go head to head last year (again, age 32) and Dirk outplayed Durant, as well as outscored him.

But I guess the playoffs are the only thing that mattered around here... until the Mavs won a championship.

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It does. But Durant is 23 and Bron is 27. They have a lot of career left, so you have to weigh their abilities heavier than their accomplishments. They just don't have the same decade+ body of work to judge accomplishments like you can with Dirk. Dirk could surprise us all, but I don't think he is winning another title this year, just like I think Duncan is done with all his big awards and titles

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To put Duncan and Dirk on the same plane at this point in their careers is silly. Dirk is in the follow up year to a title in which he dominated the playoffs and you think he and Timmy are at the same place? Timmy is in the ride off into the sunset stage of his career. Dirk is still at an elite level.

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Lebron lights up the scoreboard when he's playing the Kings and Raptors. If only he could do that when it matters.

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Had the same problem with Dirk until last year. He had more than one big playoff choke. It took him until 32 to win it all.

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. But again, Dirk averages 25 and 10 in the playoffs, one of 4 people in the history of the game to do that.

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And again, meaningless contrived stat. Those 4 players that have done that have 4 titled combined. So obviously not a stat to prove success.

Only four players have averaged 28 points and 5 assists in the playoffs. Obviously, you have to be ****ing awesome to do that, right? Two of those players are Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. Three of those players never won a title as a player. So who cares?

Six players have a PER over 25 in the playoffs. Of those six, only LeBron has failed to win a title. Of the other five, only Hakeem has failed to win at least 4 titles. Seems like a lot of winners there.

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And we saw them go head to head last year (again, age 32) and Dirk outplayed Durant, as well as outscored him.

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So one series makes a career and clearly defines one player as better than the other?

By the same token, is Wade going to always be better than Dirk for taking him to the woodshed in 06?

What about when Malone knocked out Hakeem and Barkley in 97?

Would you take Ewing over Pippen because of 94?
What about Ewing over Zo because of 93?

Durant did average 28-10 last year against Dirk. Clearly greatest ever, since it is above 25/10.

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To put Duncan and Dirk on the same plane at this point in their careers is silly. Dirk is in the follow up year to a title in which he dominated the playoffs and you think he and Timmy are at the same place? Timmy is in the ride off into the sunset stage of his career. Dirk is still at an elite level.

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Dirk is closer to where Timmy is than he is to Durant. Especially judging by the first handful of games Dirk has played.

He beat Durant in a head to head battle last June and was clearly the best player on the court. I wouldn't let the start of this season say your opinion of him.

You are swimming up stream by yourself on this one. No one agrees with you.

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Dirk is closer to where Timmy is than he is to Durant. Especially judging by the first handful of games Dirk has played.

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You're reaching, bro.

Dirk is 33. Duncan is 35. Durant is 23. You would have to be the biggest ****ing moron in the world to not realize dirk is closer to the end of his career than the beginning.

Edit: Autocorrect

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/10/2012 1:14p).]

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You are swimming up stream by yourself on this one. No one agrees with you.

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I'm completely fine with a bunch of Mavs homers not agreeing with me on the placement of their favorite player in history.

Cons:
- One dimensional
- Poor to below average defender
- Below average rebounder for his height and position
- Poor to below average ball handler and passer
- Lost in his prime to a 8 seed after winning 67 games
- Epic choke in the Finals
- 5 first round exits
- Never led the league in any major stat category

How many of the top 50 players can you say that about?


Pros:
1 MVP
1 Title
2 Finals Appearances
Great scorer
Extremely unique and memorable style
Has great overall stats in the playoffs
Good person
Elevated a shitty franchise to a title.
Durable
Consistent

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Had the same problem with Dirk until last year.

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False. That has never been Dirk's problem (referencing what you said about loading up on points against weak teams). As a matter of fact, he excels in the playoffs. Statistically, he is better in basically every stat across the board compared to the regular season (he's .1 off his career regular season APG). So you are literally dead wrong here.

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And again, meaningless contrived stat. Those 4 players that have done that have 4 titled combined. So obviously not a stat to prove success.

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Meaningless to you only because it hurts your argument. 4 titles for 4 people that would be considered alpha dogs is statistically significant. Nobody here is saying Dirk is better than Kareem.

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Only four players have averaged 28 points and 5 assists in the playoffs. Obviously, you have to be ****ing awesome to do that, right? Two of those players are Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. Three of those players never won a title as a player. So who cares?

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Reaching. There's a reason that double-doubles are tracked as statistically significant.

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Six players have a PER over 25 in the playoffs. Of those six, only LeBron has failed to win a title. Of the other five, only Hakeem has failed to win at least 4 titles. Seems like a lot of winners there.

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Top 7 players ever in playoff PER:
Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Mikan, LBJ, Nowitzki.

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Yeah, bunch of slouches Dirk's in company with.

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I'm completely fine with a bunch of Mavs homers not agreeing with me on the placement of their favorite player in history.

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Another Mavs homer hating on GS's opinion. It's not me... it's everybody else. Everybody who disagrees with me is a Mavs homer.

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I hate the Mavs, so therefore I'm not a fan of Dirk at all, but this is 100% correct. I would have a difficult time naming 30 people who are without a doubt better than Dirk. The German can play

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How many of the top 50 players can you say that about?

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Pros:
1 MVP
1 Title
2 Finals Appearances

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Add in Finals MVP and then ask yourself that same question. How many top 50 players can you say that about?

Hint: it's less than 15.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 1/10/2012 1:29p).]

Guitar is really just trolling at this point. I understand his stance. As an Emmitt Smith fan growing up I used to downgrade the accolades of Barry Sanders because I didn't want to believe his real greatness.

Also as a Spurs fan I am sure there is a lack of support for the only consistent thorn in the Spurs side over the last 12 years.

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only consistent thorn in the Spurs side over the last 12 years

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The Lakers were a bigger thorn.

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False. That has never been Dirk's problem. As a matter of fact, he excels in the playoffs. Statistically, he is better in basically every stat across the board compared to the regular season (he's .1 off his career regular season APG). So you are literally dead wrong here.

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It doesn't matter if you average 28ppg in the playoffs if you don't win the big one. Just ask Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. And everyone outside the Metroplex knew Dirk was losing to the Heat and MIami. That was the perception. It didn't matter that he had an incredible 3-point play against Ginobili, because he choked when it mattered against Wade.

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Meaningless to you only because it hurts your argument. 4 titles for 4 people that would be considered alpha dogs is statistically significant. Nobody here is saying Dirk is better than Kareem.

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No, meaningless because it is contrived and you could structure it a million different ways. But there are a lot of players that are unquestionably better than Dirk that don't meet that criteria, but have a history of stepping it up in the playoffs. 4 titles for 4 players over 60+ years is not all that significant when you are trying to say they are the best ever because of that stat. Or is that stat trying to prove something else? If I am trying to prove Dirk's playoff prowess, I am not trying to get in linked with Elgin Baylor and Pettit.

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Reaching. There's a reason that double-doubles are tracked as statistically significant.

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Yes, but only significant for big men. How many double-doubles did the greatest player ever have in the playoffs? (The answer is 39.) How many does Ewing have? 46.

Triple-Doubles are statistically significant, but I don't think we are all going to judge Kidd as the second greatest ever because he has the most trip-doubs in the playoffs after Magic.

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Another Mavs homer hating on GS's opinion. It's not me... it's everybody else. Everybody who disagrees with me is a Mavs homer.

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Same homers making the same arguments they made before Dirk won the title, although now with an updated resume.

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Add in Finals MVP and then ask yourself that same question. How many top 50 players can you say that about?

Hint: it's less than 15.

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FYI, they didn't always give out a Finals MVP. The award is named after Bill Russell, but he never won one. Nor did Cousey. Some of the most important historic players are left out just because the NBA was stupid.

Won MVP+Title

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Dirk
4. Garnett
5. Snaq
6. Jordan
7. Robinson
8. Hakeem
9. Magic
10. Bird
11. Moses Malone
12. Kareem
13. Dr. J
14. Bill Walton
15. Bob McAdoo
16. Dave Cowens
17. Willis Reed
18. Wilt
19. Big O
20. Bill Russell
21. Bob Pettit
22. Bob Cousey

Of those 22 people, do you know how many of them never lead the league in any statistical category (any of the shooting percentages or the big 5 categories - note that the NBA didn't always count steals, assists and blocks)?
Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Dirk.

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Also as a Spurs fan I am sure there is a lack of support for the only consistent thorn in the Spurs side over the last 12 years.

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Lakers were a much bigger thorn.
In the Duncan era:
Spurs were 2-4 in playoff series against the Lakers (won in 99 and 03, lost in 01, 02, 04 and 08)
Spurs were 3-2 in playoff series against Dallas (Spurs won in 01, 03 and 10; Dallas won in 06 and 09.)

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/10/2012 2:06p).]

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It doesn't matter if you average 28ppg in the playoffs if you don't win the big one. Just ask Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. And everyone outside the Metroplex knew Dirk was losing to the Heat and MIami. That was the perception. It didn't matter that he had an incredible 3-point play against Ginobili, because he choked when it mattered against Wade.

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Considering Dirk has a title, as a solo All-NBA, against two top 5 current players, makes all this null and void. Again.

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No, meaningless because it is contrived and you could structure it a million different ways. But there are a lot of players that are unquestionably better than Dirk that don't meet that criteria, but have a history of stepping it up in the playoffs. 4 titles for 4 players over 60+ years is not all that significant when you are trying to say they are the best ever because of that stat. Or is that stat trying to prove something else? If I am trying to prove Dirk's playoff prowess, I am not trying to get in linked with Elgin Baylor and Pettit.

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You're right, there are a bunch of great players who don't meet this criteria. That's the point. It's a cap feather. Just because some internet Spurs homer doesn't like it doesn't belittle the significance of it's exclusivity.

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Same homers making the same arguments they made before Dirk won the title, although now with an updated resume

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Uhhh, pretty significant resume update. The point you fail to see is that winning the title validates and strengthens all those other arguments as well.

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FYI, they didn't always give out a Finals MVP.

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No sh-t.

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Of those 22 people, do you know how many of them never lead the league in any statistical category (any of the shooting percentages or the big 5 categories - note that the NBA didn't always count steals, assists and blocks)?
Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Dirk.

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You're putting a lot of weight into this "never led the league in X stat category" argument. Why does this receive so much credence but the 25/10 stat is seen as meaningless to you? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, aside from giving selective significance to what supports your argument.

Dirk will finish top 10 all time for points scored. Being able to sustain offensive scoring over a career is much more important than finishing 1 season with the highest ppg or something. Instead, Dirk is 22nd ALL-TIME in CAREER PPG.

Should be good to barely crack the top 50, right?

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Considering Dirk has a title, as a solo All-NBA, against two top 5 current players, makes all this null and void. Again.

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That was the whole point, dumbass.

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Uhhh, pretty significant resume update. The point you fail to see is that winning the title validates and strengthens all those other arguments as well.

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Except I moved him up in my rankings pretty significantly because of it. So not sure what you are *****ing about.

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You're putting a lot of weight into this "never led the league in X stat category" argument.

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I think being one of the best in the league at any given point is a pretty important measuring stick as to how great you are career wise.

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Why does this receive so much credence but the 25/10 stat is seen as meaningless to you?

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I think that Dirk has upped his production consistently in the playoffs is significant. I also think part of the reason he has is because like you are fond of pointing out, Dirk is the only All-NBA player on the Mavs. So he is always the goto player. And it has always been that way. He gets more looks, more touches and scores more. That is also why you often see his shooting % down in the playoffs. He has to carry more than a lot of other stars because he doesn't have a Ginobili, Pippen, McHale or Worthy. He has a Terry.

The main reason that the 25/10 doesn't mean a whole lot is it feels like a contrived stat. 28 points 6 assists sounds like pretty great production for a 2 guard in the playoffs, right? In fact, only three people have ever averaged that for their career in the playoffs and all were SGs. And none of them won titles.

That 25/10 is nice and pretty and round, but it really doesn't translate to success. What it does translate to is 4 guys that spent a LOT of playoff series without any help from their teammates and not a lot of titles to show for it. That's also why Iverson and McGrady are top four in scoring all time. They never had great teammates with them in the playoffs. They were one man shows in the terrible Eastern conference.

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Dirk will finish top 10 all time for points scored. Being able to sustain offensive scoring over a career is much more important than finishing 1 season with the highest ppg or something.

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So is Malone the best PF? I mean, sustaining 25+ppg for a hundred years is pretty awesome, right?

Dirk has never cracked the top 3. He has never contended for the scoring title. And that was his best attribute AND he played without another great scorer like a lot of guys did. Dirk was ALWAYS unquestionably the alpha dog of that team. It is a negative.

And I already addressed his durability and consistency as a positive, didn't I?

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Instead, Dirk is 22nd ALL-TIME in CAREER PPG.

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He also hasn't finished up his career. A lot of players drop a bit in that ranking as they play out their careers. Look at the numbers arc for Duncan, Robinson, Hakeem and Barkley. Those late seasons tend to drop you, and I see Dirk playing quite a few more season as long as he doesn't have a major injury.

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Should be good to barely crack the top 50, right?

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That's why I said

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Dirk is somewhere in the 30-50 range. No ****ing way is he easily top 20.

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I even provided a list of 40 very accomplished or talented players. No one took a stab at naming 20 of them that Dirk is easily better than. It is a lot easier to throw *****on the wall than discuss it seriously. Who is better than Dirk?

My barely top 50 thing was an obvious troll and I was called on that immediately, but you seem to hang on it like it was serious. I guess when you don't have anything else to argue, might as well hold on to that. I have Dirk somewhere around 35 right now, but think that there are a few players that are younger than him that will have a better career than him.

There's the delicate little Guitarsoup that we all know. It was only a matter of time before your sensitive little feelings got hurt because nobody takes your mindless stat listing, constant goal post moving, and semantics-play as proof of knowledge. And, just like always, in a few posts you'll start whining and crying about being personally attacked even though you started slinging sh-t first.

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It is a lot easier to throw *****on the wall than discuss it seriously.

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My barely top 50 thing was an obvious troll and I was called on that immediately

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What a hypocritical dumbass.

The overwhelming facts have been presented to you by multiple people. Nobody agrees with you. Make your idiot Spurs-homer Dallass Sux list of All-Time NBA players. When a real list comes out and Dirk is somewhere between 15-25, I'll bump this and you can find a way to avoid it with statistics, semantics, and tears. Or if Dirk is 30-something you can bump it and, unlike you, I'll admit that I'm wrong.

Such a delicate little flower.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 1/10/2012 3:47p).]

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Three titles and the only back to back to back MVP ever

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A whole bunch of guys have won back-to-back league MVPs, and four guys have won back to back Finals MVPs (Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe)...

You may now resume e-arguing.

[This message has been edited by madd_ag_05 (edited 1/10/2012 4:04p).]

Three Backs. Not two.

This thread.

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Dirk has never cracked the top 3. He has never contended for the scoring title. And that was his best attribute AND he played without another great scorer like a lot of guys did. Dirk was ALWAYS unquestionably the alpha dog of that team. It is a negative.

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Um? Double teams?

Your boy Tim Duncan has never led a major statistical category either.

I would assume he must rank outside the top 25 in your eyes.

There are really large holes in all of your arguments.

Basically it comes down to this:

You are a gigantic homer. So much so that you're using the same arguments against Dirk that you used before he had one of the best playoff runs for a single player of all time. He carried that team to a title and single-handedly vanquished all of your arguments. Your hatred of the Mavs probably caused a disturbance in the Force at your home so strong that it is only best represented in the below photo:

Wait, Guitarsoup is listing players without rings in front of Dirk? Didn't he constantly claim that Dirk would never be <insert random player> because he didn't have a ring?

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What a hypocritical dumbass.

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Says the guy trying to take me to task for attacking while attacking me. Makes perfect sense. Same old Judge.


What constitutes a real list? Maybe your MFFL that puts Dirk ahead of BILL RUSSELL?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/759308-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-15-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time

Simmon's most recent iteration of the Pantheon has Dirk at 39. If you assume the list is correct except for Dirk's placement, Dirk obviously needs to move up. But do you move him past Willis Reed and Dave Cowens who won two titles each as the man and an MVP? I think Dirk fits perfectly right below them. One title, one MVP. That would make sense to have him just ahead of Frazier since Frazier never won an MVP, but won two titles.

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Or if Dirk is 30-something you can bump it and, unlike you, I'll admit that I'm wrong.

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You will either disappear or go to attack mode rather than address the subject or details discussed just like you are doing now.

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Your boy Tim Duncan has never led a major statistical category either.

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Yep. That and his free throw shootings are his two big negatives, though Duncan did lead in total rebounds once, was top 5 in blocks per game 5 straight years, was top 5 in rpg 8 straight seasons and for 10 seasons total (top 3 5 times). He should finish this season top 10 in blocks (already there) top 20 in rebounds, top 25 in points, 2nd in most Finals MVPs (only Jordan has more), 8th in most MVPs, first in all-defense teams, and fifth in most all-NBA teams. Pretty solid resume to go with his 4 rings as the man.

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You are a gigantic homer.

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Hilarious coming from you.

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Wait, Guitarsoup is listing players without rings in front of Dirk? Didn't he constantly claim that Dirk would never be <insert random player> because he didn't have a ring?

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So it goes something like;
Bill Russell
Sam Jones
Robert Horry
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr

Clearly not. But is getting a ring the only factor in judging greatness? Jerry West never got one, but Simmons ranked him 9th.

It is funny that MavFans accuse me of moving the goalposts, when they are the ones doing it. Now he has a ring, so it reigns supreme. At least until they can find some other obscure stat to show he is second best ever after Jordan.

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So much so that you're using the same arguments against Dirk that you used before he had one of the best playoff runs for a single player of all time.

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Dirk's game has the same weaknesses as it did before. He didn't become a great defender, passer or rebounder. And after that great run, I gave him a bump up in his all time ranking about 15 spots or so. Seems about right. What would you expect? One single playoff run instantly makes him jump 30-40 spots all time, when he was already among the all-time best?

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/10/2012 5:17p).]