I agree.
I think "big men" are overrated when it comes to "foundation" building.

I don't think so at all. But I think the NBA has wanted to move towards more exciting slashing players like Kobe/Bron/Wade and have changed rules to help out their game, rather than have the slow plodding Duncan and Shaqs dominating.

If you had a Shaq/Duncan/Robinson/Hakeem/Kareem in their prime in the league right now, they would destroy the league because their aren't any truly great centers. Bynum and Howard are the cream of the crop and that is pretty sad.

A big man who is great on both ends is not underrated at all. A great guard gives you great offense and defends one player at an elite level. A great PF/C still gives you great offense, but controls the entire defensive end of the court including rebounding.

The rules in today's NBA have been altered to favor G/Fs who can drive to the rim, so the G/F has more impact on the offensive end than the PF/C does. I still think the PF/C's defensive impact is what pushes him over the top.


How many great teams (meaning several years of elite performance) have lacked a great big man? The Jordan Bulls and who else?

Isiah's Pistons
Clyde's Blazers
Current Heatles. Bosh isn't really a traditional post player. He is one of the best in the game at the mid-range shot and isn't a great post defender. I bet he can't even bench his body weight.

Big men used to mean more than they do now, because the difference in the way the games are officiated. You can molest post players inside the paint, but if you look at a premier wing player with an ugly face its a foul these days. Notice all of the best teams have elite perimeter play combined with an interior that is just good enough. Shoot, the two centers featured in this finals matchup are among the worst in the league.

I know with yao being the only super star at times, it also was so hard to close out games. Perimeter players can start half court sets with the ball or get them off in bounds passes, but it takes too much time and effort to work it into the big man, especially if they are trying to take it away.

I would rather have Magic and an average Joe in the post like Perkins than have Shaq and an average guy on the perimeter like Trevor Ariza

But you don't need a hakeem to have good post defense. You can have a guy like Perkins and be fine. The best defenses in the league don't have dominant offensive centers. On the other hand, the best teams in the league all have dominant offensive perimeter players.

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But you don't need a hakeem to have good post defense. You can have a guy like Perkins and be fine. The best defenses in the league don't have dominant offensive centers. On the other hand, the best teams in the league all have dominant offensive perimeter players.

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It is really really nice when you can have it all-in-one and not waste a spot on the court on that. Especially when so many teams force you to play small, you can have your best player working it both ways rather than a Kaman type that can score easily but plays matador defense.

Magic Johnson

Perkins/Ibaka/Collison are a fantastic defensive trio in the paint, and we haven't seen what they do when they have to pay all those guys what they are worth.

The Heat are weak down low, but they not yet sustained success over the long term, and struggled with some pretty mediocre teams in the East.

I almost listed the Pistons, but Laimbeer/Rodman is a nice 1-2 punch on defense and especially on the boards.



The nice thing about a superstar post player is that you get offense and defense in one player. Look at the Thunder... they have some big choices coming up. Right now they pay Westbrook, Harden, Sefalosha, and Ibaka less than 15 million combined; about the same as the 25th-largest individual salary in the NBA. That doesn't fly longterm. To keep Ibaka, they'll have to pay him 10x what he is making now. Westbrook's salary will have to double or triple. Harden's will double. Sefalosha will get another couple million. Just imagine how much more flexibility they gain if they can get consistent offense from Ibaka.

Also combine that with what soup said about getting the whole package in one player on the court. Forgot to mention that, but it's pretty important to have a star who contributes on both ends. A great post gives you more leeway on the role players you can use... defensive specialists are easier to carry on the offensive end and terrible defenders can be bailed out on defense.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/18/2012 4:44p).]

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I almost listed the Pistons, but Laimbeer/Rodman is a nice 1-2 punch on defense and especially on the boards.

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Rodman wasn't the Rodman we think about when the Pistons won it all. He averaged 6 and 9 for those two playoff runs.

Yeah, but the collective crazy of that team was off the charts.

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Westbrook's salary will have to double or triple.

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Westbrook is already locked up long-term.

I would still go with MJ or LJ .... Even bird over any of the bigs unless I have to play Shaq.
I think Magic would be a top 5-10 offensive center.... It's hard to get a center the last shot. ... And controlling the paint is not as important/beneficial against excellent shooting teams.

Obviously who is left on the board would matter.

Big men are not overrated. Right now howard is the best center in the league and the magic are locks for the second round every year. Howard would be the fighting it out with Shawn kemp and zo for 5th best center of the 90s. Any of the top 4 would be better than any wing being named.

lebron took a worst team deeper in the playoffs consistently

And Howard had a real coach, as opposed to lebron

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And Howard had a real coach, as opposed to lebron

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Could anyone else carry the 06 Cavs to the Finals?

Kobe? Nope
Hakeem? Nope
Shaq? Nope
Jordan? Maybe
Magic? Maybe

Jordan, Magic and LeBron are the 3 best players of my lifetime. I'm only 26, Hakeem was amazing and might be the best big man ever but those 3 are on another planet.

^SMH.

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Could anyone else carry the 06 Cavs to the Finals?

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You mean the 06 cavs that lost to Detroit in the second round?


That would probably be the 07 Cavs....
They played in the East... I am sure Several of those guys could have done that.

I don't think we have seen LJs best 10 years yet.



[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/19/2012 12:53p).]

Dwight Howard played in the East too, did he not?

Howard was not mentioned in that list.... He was still a pup.... averaging less than 2 blocks per game and less than 20 points.

The FACT is that all of the best perimeter players in the league are leading their teams deep in the playoffs and Dwight Howards team hasn't been a factor in the championship conversation... ever. You could say he has a crappy supporting cast, but so did LeBron. They are both the best players at their position, but you can easily say that LeBron is more valuable to his team and adds more wins.

ok...

FYI
I am the one saying big men are overrated.

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Dwight Howards team hasn't been a factor in the championship conversation... ever

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I see your point but this statement is wrong. They may have lost in the finals but they got there. Big men can win titles as the #1 go to guy ask Mr Hakeem

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Dwight Howards team hasn't been a factor in the championship conversation... ever.

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Except when they went to the NBA Finals?

Speaking of not a factor:

HotardAg07, the best perimeter players are leading teams to finals now, but there are no true great big men now. In my post earlier even though Howard is borderline great (would be 5th or 6th best C in the 90s) but he still has his team going deep with little around him (finals and east conference finals). His supporting cast is was a Lewis & Turkoglu, not exactly Wade, Bosh, Westbrook, or Harden.

Take Kobe as an example. He is one of the greatest of all time yet he never sniffed a championship without Shaq, Pau, & Bynum.

Look at Dirk. Great great player, but they got over the hump when Tyson Chandler, not great, was the man in the middle.

D-Wade alone = not good. D-wade with Shaq (even past his prime) = rings.

Not saying it can't be done without a big man, but they are key pieces in most championships and hard to come by. They are the obvious choice IMO to build around.