Ralph Sampson made multiple all-star teams. Hell, he was the MVP of the game in Hakeem's rookie year.

Duncan got most of his 1st Team All NBA's as a Forward. In different years he beat out Karl Malone, Dirk, Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber, and even Lebron James. He was easily the best PF in an era of the PF.

His '03 Season also matches up against any of Hakeem's and his performance to end the 3 year run of the Lakers Titles as well as his near Quad Double in the Clinching game of the Finals is easily as impressive as anything Hakeem ever did in the playoffs.

Duncan also had to do it after they changed the rules on defenses making it harder on big men to dominate. He has been consistently great his entire career as well and his teams have been consistently great.

I watched Hakeem and appreciated him from his UH days onward. He was great. Duncan is just better. It's really not close anymore.

Again, it's like Bill Simmons said. We like to assume that later players were better than earlier ones just because it's later. That way of thinking is simply not true. Hakeem regularly scored 30 over triple teams all night. He's the all-time blocks leader. He had more combined steals and blocks than any player in history.

People like aggie93 who think its "not even close" are just showing their basketball ineptitude. So many people disagree with you it's ridiculous. I listed some of the greatest players ever who all think Hakeem was the best. What else does it take?

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Ralph Sampson made multiple all-star teams. Hell, he was the MVP of the game in Hakeem's rookie year.

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My mistake, Ralph was an all-star in Hakeem's first three years a.k.a. before his prime and during the reign of basketball's greatest team ever, the mid-80s Celtics

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I listed some of the greatest players ever who all think Hakeem was the best. What else does it take?

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They were considering Duncan a power forward, not a center. So it wasn't a comparison against him.

Career wise it really isn't close. Duncan's resume is far better than Hakeem. The only thing that Hakeem has over Duncan is a marginal lead in a few regular season categories and a DMVP. Duncan has been either All NBA First or Second Team Defense for all 14 years of his career however and his regular season minutes were reduced earlier in his career (thus reducing his stats) because the Spurs went on so many deep playoff runs.

It was also far easier for a big man to dominate in Hakeem's era with no illegal defense, defensive 3 seconds, and the allowance of hand checking. It's no coincidence that since '00 you saw less and less Centers that dominated in the NBA, the rules changed greatly helping the perimeter game.


Duncan:

4× NBA champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
14× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011, 2013)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
10× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007, 2013)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
6× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010, 2013)

Hakeem:

2× NBA champion (1994–1995)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1994–1995)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1994)
12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993–1994)
6× All-NBA First Team (1987–1989, 1993–1994, 1997)
3× All-NBA Second Team (1986, 1990, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1995, 1999)
5× All-Defensive First Team (1987–1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
4× All-Defensive Second Team (1985, 1991, 1996–1997)

As I said, I remember watching Hakeem play in those Final 4's during the Phi Slamma Jamma years and I would bet a lot of Hakeem lovers here certainly didn't. He was a great, great player. It just took him longer to become the complete player he was in the Mid '90s, he was less consistent than Duncan, and he didn't accomplish nearly as much. Was he more dominant at his peak? Maybe, but that wasn't really Duncan's game. Duncan was always all about the team and winning the big prize and thus his personal stats (while very impressive) suffered.

I will guarantee you this though, Duncan doesn't give a damn. He has never cared about the individual acclaim.

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Career wise it really isn't close. Duncan's resume is far better than Hakeem

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Yeah no ****, too bad that's not what's being argued

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It was also far easier for a big man to dominate in Hakeem's era with no illegal defense, defensive 3 seconds, and the allowance of hand checking. It's no coincidence that since '00 you saw less and less Centers that dominated in the NBA, the rules changed greatly helping the perimeter game.

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I'm sorry, but you're trying to discount his career when he DOMINATED the likes of young Shaq, Ewing, and David Robinson? That's laughable. Wanna know why there's no dominant 5s out there? The whole basketball system is screwed up now and it's a guard's game.

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As I said, I remember watching Hakeem play in those Final 4's during the Phi Slamma Jamma years and I would bet a lot of Hakeem lovers here certainly didn't. He was a great, great player. It just took him longer to become the complete player he was in the Mid '90s, he was less consistent than Duncan, and he didn't accomplish nearly as much. Was he more dominant at his peak? Maybe, but that wasn't really Duncan's game. Duncan was always all about the team and winning the big prize and thus his personal stats (while very impressive) suffered.

I will guarantee you this though, Duncan doesn't give a damn. He has never cared about the individual acclaim.

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And Hakeem wasn't all these things? Robert Horry, Kenny Smith, and CHARLES FREAKING BARKELY all said that Hakeem was the most honorable/best teammate ever. Hakeem wasn't some ******* like Wilt Chamerlain who was stat hungry. He wanted to win so badly that his temper sometimes got the best of him early in his career.

And less consistent is just blatantly false:
"Hakeem averaged 21-12 as a rookie, with a 21-13 and 20 stocks (steals+blocks) in the '85 playoffs; 15 years later, he averaged 19-10 regular season and 20-11 with 21 stocks in the '99 playoffs. He made the playoffs every year for his first fifteen except '92, never winning fewer than 42 or more than 58, yet he only played with 4 All-Stars during his career

As I said, Hakeem was great he just isn't as great.

Hakeem beat some great players but he didn't beat as many as Duncan has. He also didn't dominate Robinson outside of one playoff series. Robinson absolutely owned Hakeem in his career. I agree Hakeem is better because of that series but he lost to Robinson far more than he beat him so I don't see how he "dominated him". Who knows if Hakeem would have a single title if Jordan hadn't gone to play baseball.

Hakeem was a good teammate but he also went through a period he demanded to be traded and he was disgruntled a few times with his coaches and team in his career when they started to lose. Duncan has no history of that whatsoever.

Hakeem also was very consistent, he just isn't as consistent as Duncan. Duncan's teams have never missed the playoffs. They have only lost in Round 1 one time with Duncan playing. They only won less than 50 once and that was when they had the best record in the league in the Strike season. He has never missed an All Star Game (Hakeem missed one in his prime). He's never missed All NBA (Hakeem did in his prime). He never has been below 2nd Team All NBA Defense which is also more than Hakeem can claim.

I don't feel like going into it anymore, but I'll just say that I strongly, STRONGLY disagree

The argument isn't better career, it is better player. Hakeem is clearly the better player.

Don't blame you Hickory, when every argument you have gets shot down with fact after fact.

The only way Hakeem gets the nod is through personal emotion of looking at how you thought Player A looked in their prime vs how Player B looked in their prime. That or looking at a meaningless differential in regular season statistics. Duncan is arguably 3 fluke plays away from having 6 rings and 6 Finals MVP's (5 of which would have been in a row and a 13 year spread between the first and the last). Hakeem is nothing close to that territory.

^You discount regular season statistics, but give credit to what-if scenarios as a way to make your argument?

Well, I was a fluke away from hitting the lottery the other day. My life is totally better than Person B's.

aggie93, you haven't said **** to make me feel like I'm wrong at all. It's just exhausting to argue with someone that most people disagree with, but still holds his ground.

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Robinson absolutely owned Hakeem in his career.

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Between the 1989-1990 season and the 1998-1999 season, the Rockets and Spurs played 50 times, including the post-season, and split those games 25-25.

You need to absolutely re-evaluate your definition of absolutely owned.

So we are now resorting to what-ifs and hypotheticals to prove Duncan's dominance over Dream?

Desperation is a stinky cologne

Hakeem was better than Duncan. Give '84-'91 Hakeem a coach as good as Popovich, a PG who isn't a crack head (like Tony Parker), and a sidekick as good as David Robinson and he wins at least 2-3 championships before the 2 he won in the mid-90s. People need to read the grantland piece on how effed up the rockets culture was during the 1st part of Hakeem's tenure there. It was the polar opposite of what Duncan walked into (a model franchise).

Duncan's career would look a lot different if popovich was a stubborn overbearing hothead who wore players out (like Fitch was), Parker was a crackhead who flamed out (like Lucas was), Robinson was an immature flaky pillow who wanted to be a point guard and shoot 3's (like sampson was), and if Ginobili and Bowen had been kicked out of the league for 2 years for drug abuse (like 2 of hakeem's budding young support players were) and finished their careers in europe and the cba. Hakeem walked into a dumpster fire, Duncan walked into the set of the Sopranos.

Just comparing the 2 players, Hakeem is better than Duncan and guys who have played with both all say that (Horry, etc.), so it's silly that obnoxious spurs fans keep showing their insecurity and inferiority complex trying to peddle this "argument".

Well if Hakeem were a better leader, maybe he could have kept those knuckleheads out of trouble

Robinson played Hakeem 42 times in the regular season and was 30-12 in those games. I would consider that "ownage". So I guess you are saying the Rockets were better against the Spurs when they didn't have Robinson vs Hakeem?

I only brought up the "what if" scenario to show how close Duncan is to comparing with Magic/MJ/Kareem in terms of how close he came to having 6 rings. He didn't though and so he is below them.

He doesn't need anything to show he was better than Hakeem though, he already has the far superior resume and was just as dominant. Hakeem's teams never even finished with a #1 seed or 60 wins. His teams lost in the 1st Round or didn't make the playoffs more often than they advanced. Duncan has far superior individual accomplishments as well throughout that period.

Did Hakeem have less talent? Perhaps, but you could argue otherwise. Duncan always made the players around him better and the Spurs are famous for making the most out of role players. Outside of the recent emergence of Tony Parker you could argue that Duncan never had another Top 10 player on his squad to pair with (Robinson certainly wasn't by the time Duncan played with him, Manu never was). Pop is a great coach but Duncan also is a big part of that. Would Hakeem have put up with how Pop berates Duncan and gives him no special treatment? Maybe, but Hakeem went through a lot of coaches with the Rockets.

Finally, you are really talking semantics when you consider Hakeem at his peak better than Duncan. Duncan's '03 Season was about as dominant as you can be. He was MVP for the 2nd straight year. His team was the #1 seed with the best record in spite of being the least talented of all the Spurs Title teams due to Robinson being on his last legs and Parker and Manu being bit players. In the playoffs the Spurs destroyed the 3 Time Champ Lakers with Duncan having a monster game at Staples to put them away. In the Finals he was 2 blocks from a Quad double and still had a Triple Double/20/20 in the Deciding game to close them out.

I realize that many will always consider Hakeem better and that's fine. It's just not based on any real objective evidence other than minor differences in regular season stats. Of course who knows what Duncan would have put up stat wise if he didn't have a team that didn't have to fight just to make the playoffs every year so he got to rest. When Duncan needed to score 50 or have a 20/20 he did, he just didn't need to very often.

I'm not trying to change your mind, it won't happen. I'm just pointing out the facts that the argument that Hakeem was better is really weak once you look at it. He was great, he just wasn't as good as Duncan. I know Duncan could play until he is 50 though and win the next 10 MVP's and Titles and Rocket fans would still say "Dream was better!"

BTW, I always rooted for Hakeem and the Rockets when they didn't play the Spurs. He was a lot of fun to watch.





[This message has been edited by aggie93 (edited 6/24/2013 4:18p).]

Also, Rodney McCray was better than Alvin Robertson.

Hakeem was a dominate center at 6'11" & Duncan is a great power forward at 6'10"

Hakeem is a top 2 or 3 center All-Time & Duncan will be a top 2 or 3 All-Time power forward.

They're both great but if you think Timmy could take Hakeem one on one you're high.

This argument will never be settled. Why? Because there is a valid argument for either guy. Which makes it so frustrating to see some act like one is so clearly better than the other. You can make a case for either. Unfortunately no one will ever be able to prove the other wrong.

All I know is what isn't debatable. Spurs>Rockets. And that's what is important to me.

Duncan had a far far superior career. If you want to argue who was more physically talented, OK.

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Hakeem was a dominate center at 6'11" & Duncan is a great power forward at 6'10"

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Hakeem was closer to 6'9 or 6'10. Duncan is 6'11.

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Duncan will be a top 2 or 3 All-Time power forward.

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Duncan is already unquestionably the top PF ever.

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Duncan had a far far superior career. If you want to argue who was more physically talented, OK.

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This. Duncan had a better career. Hakeem had more physical tools. Both are among the greatest NBA players of all time.

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Robinson absolutely owned Hakeem in his career

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OMG rotflmfao!!!! Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah *breathe* Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

"Hakeem was closer to 6'9 or 6'10. Duncan is 6'11."

This isn't true at all. I worked for the rockets and saw dream frequently when he came back. He's every bit of 6'10"-11"

Lets also all agree Duncan was extremely blessed with an unreal supporting cast his ENTIRE career. Dream carried his team single handedly nearly every year of his career

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Lets also all agree Duncan was extremely blessed with an unreal supporting cast his ENTIRE career. Dream carried his team single handedly nearly every year of his career

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I've been trying to drive this point for awhile but they don't believe it

Outside of San Antonio, nobody thinks Duncan is better than Olajuwon.

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Outside of San Antonio, nobody thinks Duncan is better than Olajuwon.

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Simmons ranked Duncan over Hakeem in his book written 5 years ago, so apparently SOME people do believe that Duncan is better than Hakeem.

You gotta read the book to understand that ranking. It's not the same method we're using at all.

Read every word.

All 750? Then you understand.

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Simmons ranked Duncan over Hakeem in his book written 5 years ago, so apparently SOME people do believe that Duncan is better than Hakeem.

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Bill Simmons Is a ****ing asshat ******bag mother****er who continual writes pathetic articles about how much he hates Houston. **** him

I love Bill Simmons. He's actually who I'm trying to model my future career after.