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Never knew his backstory. Surprised they went that deep into it.

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I think that shows you the level of respect Jordan had for Kerr. I think that's why they spent so much time talking about the punch in practice as well.

It's amazing to me how many signature moments MJ and the Bulls had over a ~14 year period. Was awesome to re-live all that. Wish they would have shown a little more behind the scenes practice stuff to really show MJ in his element but possible he nixed some of that.

The Bulls seem to have been cursed since Reinsdorf/Krause broke up the champs. They've whiffed on all their potential big FA acquisitions since 1999 (T-Mac/Grant Hill in 2000, Lebron/Wade in 2010) and ended up having to give long term deals to guys like Mercer, Boozer, trade for overpaid Jalen Rose, etc. Then D Rose got hurt in the playoffs in 2012, which was easily the Bulls best shot at making at title run in the post-MJ era. Then there's other dumb things like Jay Williams bike accident, trading Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler, and letting GarPax sustain mediocrity for many many years without shaking things up.

It's fun to hypothesize how the rebuild would have worked if they kept the dynasty going. Clearly they were fatigued after the 6th title but with a lockout shortened 98-99 season, it's possible they could have found enough in the tank to win a 7th. Going for 8 would have probably been too much but that would have extended the run into 99-00 (side note: Phil wouldn't have coached the Lakers to their first title). Assuming the Bulls wouldn't have won in 99-00, the re-build would have begun in 00-01, likely giving the Bulls very high picks in the 01, 02 and 03 drafts. Maybe good karma from letting MJ finish out his championship run on his terms would have gotten them the #1 pick in the 03 draft :-).

Great show but just remember we saw what MJ wanted us to see.

I've never liked him, but he is the best basketball player ever. So far.

BTW, my Grandfather is in the Basketball Hall of Fame. He's my favorite player.

I really liked the documentary and how raw it was. they left all the language in there and maybe it will inspire some of the current players as well.

I'm not an Obama fan but his comment at the end about MJ exporting american culture made sense. That's when American culture infiltrating the rest of the world really took off.

The players have such great memories and obviously still hold some grudges about the past that they can't let go. Reggie Miller still says the most generic things like he does when he commentates.

I was born in '89 so I remember watching all these series - particularly the finals - but never knew about the drama in the background.

TheMasterplan said:

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I'm not an Obama fan but his comment at the end about MJ exporting american culture made sense. That's when American culture infiltrating the rest of the world really took off.

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Agreed. Outside of the pope and American presidents, can anyone think of a more famous person in the 90's than Michael Jordan? You can argue he's still pretty much top 5 even in 2020.

Head Ninja In Charge said:

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TheMasterplan said:

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I'm not an Obama fan but his comment at the end about MJ exporting american culture made sense. That's when American culture infiltrating the rest of the world really took off.

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Agreed. Outside of the pope and American presidents, can anyone think of a more famous person in the 90's than Michael Jordan? You can argue he's still pretty much top 5 even in 2020.

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I was born in 1984 and think MJ and Tiger stand out as the two most iconic athletes of my lifetime. Don't think there's even a close third. Federer/Nadal are icons in their sport but don't really transcend broader cultural barriers. Kobe, Lebron and Shaq have alot of star power but none reached the Tiger/MJ level. Bolt only appears on the world stage once every four years. And I don't think any major international soccer players really standout enough above the rest to be considered culturally iconic. Historically, maybe Ali and Babe Ruth were close.

And you're right, I'd put MJ or Tiger up next to just about any other celebrity (actor/singer/politician/etc) in terms of worldwide fame, other than US presidents and the pope perhaps.

Tiger's a big big deal... but sort of putting him in the same sentence in terms of fame and influence as Jordan is even really being generous to Tiger.

Agreed... I guess I'm saying I see it as Jordan 1, huge gap then Tiger then huge gap and everyone else.

I've been reading articles about this series and I'm glad I never liked Jordan. After reading some of the things Jordan did back then and what he's saying in the series now... I have every reason to continue to dislike the guy

It appears Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and Charles Barkley no longer like MJ

Who's left that likes him? The guy is an arrogant ahole


**edit/can we get a MMA match between Jordan and Grant please?!**

I'm still a huge MJ fan but can see how he might rub some people the wrong way. He was a ruthless competitor with an intense desire to succeed. He worked extremely hard at his craft and demanded those around him do the same. He strived to win. Strived to be great. Despite what postmodern culture might preach, those are good qualities.

My sense from the documentary is that his teammates thought he was a d*ck sometimes, but understood why when they were partying after their championships. Chuck and Horace are one-off situations with their own unique complexities. Kobe basically dedicated his career to MJ (guessing you don't like Kobe either though). Lebron idolizes him. Obviously alot of his competitors from the 80s and 90s may not have great things to say about him, but that makes sense considering he took them all down.

The problem is a lot of his own teammates don't seem to like him.

Barkley was taken down by MJ and were friends but they aren't anymore

I think there may be two separate issues at play here.

One is whether or not MJ's teammates liked/still like him and there's probably a range of opinions here, with the most common opinion being "yea, he was an a-hole but it sure was fun winning all those rings".

The other is whether or not MJ's teammates felt like The Last Dance accurately portrayed the reality of the Bulls dynasty. The answer to that seems pretty clearly no.

As much fun as it was to re-live all the Jordan era highlights and signature moments, I actually agree with that criticism. I was hoping The Last Dance would delve a bit more deeply into the behind the scenes stuff and give some of his old teammates more of a voice in narrating / offering critiques of MJ.

The producers probably could have done a better job in that regard, but I also sort of understand the nature of the documentary and who held all the cards (so to speak). You can't do The Last Dance without MJ. And MJ isn't gonna do it unless he gets to be the predominant voice. Would be interesting to hear all the behind the scenes conversations which determined what interview/film footage made the final cut and what was edited out.

I enjoyed it, but it was far different than what was originally advertised. The trailers were "a camera crew was given unprecedented access during the Bulls' 1998 season...", but that wound up being a relatively small portion of the series. It was basically just the history of Jordan's career, as edited by Jordan, with some associated side stories about his teammates for exposition.

There was plenty of behind the scenes footage. And for the record, the filmmaker said Jordan didn't ask for a single edit to what they submitted even though he had that power.

Junkhead said:

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There was plenty of behind the scenes footage. And for the record, the filmmaker said Jordan didn't ask for a single edit to what they submitted even though he had that power.

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He said that because he didn't want to piss off MJ

Junkhead said:

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There was plenty of behind the scenes footage.

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It was fine.

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And for the record, the filmmaker said Jordan didn't ask for a single edit to what they submitted even though he had that power.

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I'm fairly certain that guy is lying then.

BMX Bandit said:

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Junkhead said:

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There was plenty of behind the scenes footage. And for the record, the filmmaker said Jordan didn't ask for a single edit to what they submitted even though he had that power.

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He said that because he didn't want to piss off MJ

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Why would he care after the documentary aired? That's when he said it.

McDadeTXAggie said:

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I've been reading articles about this series and I'm glad I never liked Jordan. After reading some of the things Jordan did back then and what he's saying in the series now... I have every reason to continue to dislike the guy

It appears Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and Charles Barkley no longer like MJ

Who's left that likes him? The guy is an arrogant ahole


**edit/can we get a MMA match between Jordan and Grant please?!**

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Chuck and MJ are no longer friends because of Chuck and he admits that much. He went on a radio show and said MJ was never going to be a good executive until he stopped allowing his friends to work with him.

But Barkley was right.

hph6203 said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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I've been reading articles about this series and I'm glad I never liked Jordan. After reading some of the things Jordan did back then and what he's saying in the series now... I have every reason to continue to dislike the guy

It appears Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and Charles Barkley no longer like MJ

Who's left that likes him? The guy is an arrogant ahole


**edit/can we get a MMA match between Jordan and Grant please?!**

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Chuck and MJ are no longer friends because of Chuck and he admits that much. He went on a radio show and said MJ was never going to be a good executive until he stopped allowing his friends to work with him.

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MJ knows Barkley is brutally honest. If his butt is so hurt over something like that its just another reason his list of friends are quickly dwindling

My biggest question is, why is he claiming Pippen was selfish and does anyone think Pippen was?

I'm wondering if this is Jordan's last ditch effort to prop himself up with all the players today putting up crazier stats than he did

McDadeTXAggie said:

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hph6203 said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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I've been reading articles about this series and I'm glad I never liked Jordan. After reading some of the things Jordan did back then and what he's saying in the series now... I have every reason to continue to dislike the guy

It appears Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and Charles Barkley no longer like MJ

Who's left that likes him? The guy is an arrogant ahole


**edit/can we get a MMA match between Jordan and Grant please?!**

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Chuck and MJ are no longer friends because of Chuck and he admits that much. He went on a radio show and said MJ was never going to be a good executive until he stopped allowing his friends to work with him.

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MJ knows Barkley is brutally honest. If his butt is so hurt over something like that its just another reason his list of friends are quickly dwindling

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I'm not saying MJ is right for dissolving that friendship, I'm just saying Chuck wishes they were still friends and that the reason they're not friends anymore isn't because Chuck thinks he's an *******.

McDadeTXAggie said:

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My biggest question is, why is he claiming Pippen was selfish and does anyone think Pippen was?

I'm wondering if this is Jordan's last ditch effort to prop himself up with all the players today putting up crazier stats than he did

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He feels that Scottie was selfish for delaying his surgery causing him to miss part of the season. He said so explicitly. Everyone else who commented on it didn't seem to have a problem with his decision.

Everyone thought he was wrong for sitting out the last play that was designed for Kukoc but that doesn't taint his whole career.

Jordan did insinuate weakness when Pip missed Game 7 against the Pistons in 1990 due to his migraines. Again, no one else backed up MJ's view of that situation. But he did say multiple times without Pippen there are no championships.

Michael doesn't need anything to "prop him up" as his career is more than enough to prove he was the best. But I think the timing definitely had something to do with there now being a whole generation of people out there who never saw him play. His own daughter didn't even get why he was so famous. Now they know.

Junkhead said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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My biggest question is, why is he claiming Pippen was selfish and does anyone think Pippen was?

I'm wondering if this is Jordan's last ditch effort to prop himself up with all the players today putting up crazier stats than he did

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He feels that Scottie was selfish for delaying his surgery causing him to miss part of the season. He said so explicitly. Everyone else who commented on it didn't seem to have a problem with his decision.

Everyone thought he was wrong for sitting out the last play that was designed for Kukoc but that doesn't taint his whole career.

Jordan did insinuate weakness when Pip missed Game 7 against the Pistons in 1990 due to his migraines. Again, no one else backed up MJ's view of that situation. But he did say multiple times without Pippen there are no championships.

Michael doesn't need anything to "prop him up" as his career is more than enough to prove he was the best. But I think the timing definitely had something to do with there now being a whole generation of people out there who never saw him play. His own daughter didn't even get why he was so famous. Now they know.

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Fair enough but as you stated, a generation is out there that has never seen him play

Jordan knows that at some point he will statistically be compared to the other greats. Kids these days that have never seen him play think us old timers are on crack because guys like Harden and Westbrook drop triple doubles before the 4th quarter starts like its nothing.

Wait another 20 years...

My argument is that he doesn't need to be propped up. They just need to be exposed to his greatness. It's not like he had to make **** up to make himself look better than he really was.

I watched 4 episodes with my friend and his family, two basketball playing sons in 7th and 9th grades. It was fun to hear their reactions to a lot of what was shown. They have a pretty good knowledge already of NBA history but it's safe to say they learned a LOT watching this documentary. One of the big takeaways was how different the game was back then, particularly how tough defense was played.

Sadly, I lost a lot of respect for Jordan after thinking about this doc.

I firmly believe that with his greatness in all aspects of the game that the Bulls could've been just as good if he was a respectful teammate.

Now, he can live the rest of his life ironically being reviled my many of his teammates and contemporaries.

But he has his 6 rings.

Wonder what Bill Russell thinks about that?

Was a great ****in doc and MJ Is the GOAT

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Michael doesn't need anything to "prop him up" as his career is more than enough to prove he was the best

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True.

But MJ is constantly looking to do just that.

BMX Bandit said:

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Michael doesn't need anything to "prop him up" as his career is more than enough to prove he was the best

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True.

But MJ is constantly looking to do just that.

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Constantly? What has he done before this?

Have you not paid attention to Michael Jordan before this came out? Go watch his HoF speech

He's the GOAT, but also a thinned skinned whiney jerk