Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Kevin O'Connor updated his mock draft today and it is my nightmare scenario for the Mavs.

1. Wemby
2. B Miller
3. Scoot
4. Whitmore
5. Jarace Walker
6. Amen Thompson
7. Hendricks
8. Ausar Thompson
9. Anthony Black
10. Cason Wallace
11. Dick

Most expect Houston at 4 to take a Thompson, but KOC has them taking Whitmore as a better fit to go with Harden. Most people think Detroit at 5 would take Whitmore if he is there, so Houston snagging him moves them to Jarace Walker, who I think the Mavs would love to have.

I thought it was likely Indiana at 7 would decide who the Mavs take, because they would take one of Walker or Hendricks if both are available, then you hope whichever one they don't take makes it past Washington and Utah.

KOC writes that he thinks the Mavs would trade the pick, but that Cason could fit as a good defensive backcourt guy.

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God I hope Houston gives Harden 4y200mm and Houston takes a ridiculous upside potential guy that can jump really well rather than guys that are proven 2-way players.

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This is interesting. You seem to be implying you don't like Whitmore all that much. I think every mock I have seen has him going before at least one of the Thompson brothers, though I think this may be the first I have seen where he is before both of them.

Would you take both Thompsons over him. what are your thoughts on Whitmore and where he fits in this group of prospects. Early on, I was hoping he could be a guy that would fall to the Mavs, though that seems nearly impossible given how high he has risen in mocks recently.

shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Kevin O'Connor updated his mock draft today and it is my nightmare scenario for the Mavs.

1. Wemby
2. B Miller
3. Scoot
4. Whitmore
5. Jarace Walker
6. Amen Thompson
7. Hendricks
8. Ausar Thompson
9. Anthony Black
10. Cason Wallace
11. Dick

Most expect Houston at 4 to take a Thompson, but KOC has them taking Whitmore as a better fit to go with Harden. Most people think Detroit at 5 would take Whitmore if he is there, so Houston snagging him moves them to Jarace Walker, who I think the Mavs would love to have.

I thought it was likely Indiana at 7 would decide who the Mavs take, because they would take one of Walker or Hendricks if both are available, then you hope whichever one they don't take makes it past Washington and Utah.

KOC writes that he thinks the Mavs would trade the pick, but that Cason could fit as a good defensive backcourt guy.

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God I hope Houston gives Harden 4y200mm and Houston takes a ridiculous upside potential guy that can jump really well rather than guys that are proven 2-way players.

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This is interesting. You seem to be implying you don't like Whitmore all that much. I think every mock I have seen has him going before at least one of the Thompson brothers, though I think this may be the first I have seen where he is before both of them.

Would you take both Thompsons over him. what are your thoughts on Whitmore and where he fits in this group of prospects. Early on, I was hoping he could be a guy that would fall to the Mavs, though that seems nearly impossible given how high he has risen in mocks recently.

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I haven't watched enough of Nova to really say, but there are always guys that just explode in the combine because of a huge vertical or whatever and end up disappointing.

Whitmore is crazy athletic, but he will be less able to rely on that to dominate in the NBA as he could in college.

He doesn't seem to have any real moves or fundamentals. He isn't a good passer and while his strength and athleticism is good for a defender, he doesn't seems to have the defensive instincts that others have.

I just have a real tough time deciding to take a guy #4 that relies on his athleticism without many real fundamental abilities. He isn't a shooter, he doesn't have low post moves, he takes bad mid-range shots, he isn't a stopper on defense, and he isn't a good passer. Maybe he proves me wrong, but that tends to make me think he is gonna be a ball stopping chucker on offense unless he can run on a team like the Lob Flop City Clippers.

I think his game will need a lot more work and coaching than some of the other top 10 guys and I would probably take him after Hendricks, maybe both of the twins and Maybe even Walker. I think that Walker has a lower ceiling, but has a much higher floor and will be a better defender 3-5 in the NBA than Whitmore.

Whitmore's shuttle run was 3rd worst at the combine. His 3/4 court sprint was mid. Standing vertical was 31.5. His Max Vertical was 4th best.

His hands are small (2nd smallest of all SF at the combine) and he was 6'5.5 without shoes with a 6'8 wingspan.

Other than max vertical, none is that impressive to me.


I think a 22-win team giving Harden 4y200mm would be worse than trading two early 20s guys that average 8ppg and the 10th pick for a 38yo crybaby. That's real franchise suicide, because you can't move that contract at all.

Guitarsoup said:

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PatAg said:

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I'd be in favor of no lebron and also moving kyrie

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Kyrie is a FA, so moving him would have to be a S&T, so you don't get much back.

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Even better, thought he had another year.
Hes a great player, but I wasnt happy about getting him in the first place for all the other obvious reasons
We'll probably still sign him anyways, and I'll have to be optimistic

shack009 said:

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PatAg said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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PatAg said:

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I'd be in favor of no lebron and also moving kyrie

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Kyrie is a FA, so moving him would have to be a S&T, so you don't get much back.

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Even better, thought he had another year.
Hes a great player, but I wasnt happy about getting him in the first place for all the other obvious reasons
We'll probably still sign him anyways, and I'll have to be optimistic

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He's a bit of a flake and he can sour on a team for not giving him the contract he wants.

But if we're being honest with ourselves, the narrative about Kyrie Irving stems entirely from not wanting to get vaccinated. It's said that he left the team or that he didn't want to play basketball during 21-22. Neither of those things are true; he just didn't want to be forced to vaccinate.

If the Mavs give him the contract he wants, odds are everything will be fine with him this season. He could become unhappy again in a year or two. He also could not. If we make him feel welcome and don't force him to take experimental drugs, we may be just fine.

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Kyrie 's narrative existed before Covid

Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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PatAg said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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PatAg said:

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I'd be in favor of no lebron and also moving kyrie

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Kyrie is a FA, so moving him would have to be a S&T, so you don't get much back.

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Even better, thought he had another year.
Hes a great player, but I wasnt happy about getting him in the first place for all the other obvious reasons
We'll probably still sign him anyways, and I'll have to be optimistic

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He's a bit of a flake and he can sour on a team for not giving him the contract he wants.

But if we're being honest with ourselves, the narrative about Kyrie Irving stems entirely from not wanting to get vaccinated. It's said that he left the team or that he didn't want to play basketball during 21-22. Neither of those things are true; he just didn't want to be forced to vaccinate.

If the Mavs give him the contract he wants, odds are everything will be fine with him this season. He could become unhappy again in a year or two. He also could not. If we make him feel welcome and don't force him to take experimental drugs, we may be just fine.

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Kyrie 's narrative existed before Covid

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It got exponentially worse over CoVID. People act like he could just leave your team in the middle of the season and not play 40 games just because he doesn't want to. People say that is a possibility this next season.

This will be the player I manifest to Dallas. Rebounding monster with a motor that doesn’t quit. This dude can play for the Mavs on day 1. https://t.co/GxhzhDKJrf

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 7, 2023

Tshiebwe is 23 yrs old. He's 6'10 with a 7'3 wingspan and rebounds the everliving **** out of the ball. The mavs can probably buy into the 2nd round with cash and get him and he'd instantly be better than Powell.

I love love love this dude. In an era where fundamentals aren't taught, this dude doesn't cut any corners. He will box out his man to the 3pt line EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Is he actually 6-10? That seems generous. Kentucky ran everything through him so you can get him the ball in the high post and run some action off him and DHOs.

I'm skeptical of his defensive ability, but it's worth a shot late in the second, if he's there. I'm actually surprised he didn't come back to Kentucky. I wonder if this was more Cal's decision than his.

shack009 said:

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Is he actually 6-10? That seems generous. Kentucky ran everything through him so you can get him the ball in the high post and run some action off him and DHOs.

I'm skeptical of his defensive ability, but it's worth a shot late in the second, if he's there. I'm actually surprised he didn't come back to Kentucky. I wonder if this was more Carl's decision than his.

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Some sites have him listed at 6'9 but some also have his wingspan at 7'4. He didn't show much as an elite rim protector, but it's not like people were constantly dunking on him. Either way he's plenty of length and is strong as an ox. He has actual functional strength unlike Powell who just looks buff but can't do anything with it.

Tshiebwe has an insane motor, soft hands and a promising FT% (on top of the picture perfect rebounding acumen). Like, he's exactly what the Mavs need from a traditional backup big that can clean the glass. And he's not getting drafted any higher than like...45? Potentially even undrafted. He's gettable and can contribute instantly.

https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/dallas-mavs-trade-10th-pick-nba-draft-josh-green-jaden-hardy-luka-doncic-kyrie-irving-free-agency#:~:text=Despite%20having%20a%20top%2D10,Josh%20Green%20and%20Jaden%20Hardy.

Mavs "Will almost certainly" trade the 10th pick with salary.

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Despite the Mavs having a lottery pick in a draft class that is one of the deeper ones we've seen in recent memory, there have been reports stating Dallas could look to trade it instead of adding a top young prospect. The Athletic's Tim Cato is the latest to reinforce that idea.

"The team's summer rebuild must begin with players like Hardaway and Bertans being shipped out to make room for further moves, and why the No. 10 pick is almost certainly going to be dealt quite possibly with Bertans' contract attached to it while the team prefers keeping Green and Hardy, two players on rookie-scale contracts who can provide rotation minutes next season," Cato wrote.

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This was always the most likely scenario, but certainly the least fun. The Mavs better make sure they are getting a guy who can contribute now if they are going to make this move.

The Suns have waved Chris Paul. pic.twitter.com/dTotu9tOIG

— nba paint (@nba_paint) June 7, 2023

Trade for LeBron and sign CP3 and Brodie for the Vet Min and have the all-2014 PG + Luka team

That's a comedy twitter account. Don't think he's been waived, although there are reports that they are talking about what to do with him.

If we get lebron and cp3, I'm literally finding a new team to root for. Bring back d wade out of retirement and that would be my most hated team of all time.

mavsfan4ever said:

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That's a comedy twitter account. Don't think he's been waived, although there are reports that they are talking about what to do with him.

If we get lebron and cp3, I'm literally finding a new team to root for. Bring back d wade out of retirement and that would be my most hated team of all time.

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Sources: The Suns and Chris Paul are exploring multiple options, including a trade, stretching his contract, or waiving and re-signing him in free agency. Phoenix expected to discuss trades ahead of Paul’s June 28 contract date.

Story at @TheAthletic:https://t.co/5EwV2pFLZ6

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) June 7, 2023

Yeah, nothing is done, but if no one wants to trade for Paul's 30mm contract, they are gonna waive him, stretch teh 15mm guaranteed and take the 25mm savings on the cap. They are currently at 165mm with 7 players and the super double apron is 179.5m, so they don't have a path to not hit it without waiving paul or dumping Ayton for nothing.

Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

Edit: He also only took 13 3s in college, so I wouldn't say that's a full sample size. But as a rule of thumb, never buy in to "Big Man X is draining 3s in drills."

shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

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Quote:

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

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Because I want to parse out his touch. Dunks don't really indicate anything about a player's offensive skillset.

For example: Jalen Brunson shoots 49% from the field. That's failrly pedestrian (nothing special). But he converted something like 68% of his attempts around the rim. For an undersized Guard that's ELITE.

For bigs, no one really cares about FG% because almost every single player is inflated by dunks (something a ton of athletes in the league could do). If you want to see their skill represented in #s, you want to see their conversion elsewhere.

M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

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Quote:

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

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Because I want to parse out his touch. Dunks don't really indicate anything about a player's offensive skillset.

For example: Jalen Brunson shoots 49% from the field. That's failrly pedestrian (nothing special). But he converted something like 68% of his attempts around the rim. For an undersized Guard that's ELITE.

For bigs, no one really cares about FG% because almost every single player is inflated by dunks (something a ton of athletes in the league could do). If you want to see their skill represented in #s, you want to see their conversion elsewhere.

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I do understand why the stat is used. Sure that number does say something about the player. But dunks also say something about the player. And dunking is a massive part of being a big man. Everybody hates Deandre Ayton because he *won't* dunk.

I generally agree with your point, I don't want Lively at 10. That FT% is scary and I always call BS on "Workout 3P%."

If your need is rim protection, you may just want a guy that can threaten with the backdoor cut, alley-oop, etc on offense, and have them in there to protect the paint. Who cares if DeAndre Jordan couldn't make a 6' shot, he was an All-NBA player 3x. Robert Williams takes 70% of his shots at the rim.

If you are going after a guy that has a primary duty of rim protecting, their jumper at the elbow is lower on my list of things to care about. Likely averaged 2.4bpg in 20mpg of play. That seems good.

shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

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Quote:

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

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Because I want to parse out his touch. Dunks don't really indicate anything about a player's offensive skillset.

For example: Jalen Brunson shoots 49% from the field. That's failrly pedestrian (nothing special). But he converted something like 68% of his attempts around the rim. For an undersized Guard that's ELITE.

For bigs, no one really cares about FG% because almost every single player is inflated by dunks (something a ton of athletes in the league could do). If you want to see their skill represented in #s, you want to see their conversion elsewhere.

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I do understand why the stat is used. Sure that number does say something about the player. But dunks also say something about the player. And dunking is a massive part of being a big man. Everybody hates Deandre Ayton because he *won't* dunk.

I generally agree with your point, I don't want Lively at 10. That FT% is scary and I always call BS on "Workout 3P%."

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Dunking just isn't a relevant skill. No one is drafting a player based on dunks. It's not a unique or valuable skill. Mac McClung just won the dunk contest and isn't on an NBA roster lol.

M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

---

Quote:

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

---

Because I want to parse out his touch. Dunks don't really indicate anything about a player's offensive skillset.

For example: Jalen Brunson shoots 49% from the field. That's failrly pedestrian (nothing special). But he converted something like 68% of his attempts around the rim. For an undersized Guard that's ELITE.

For bigs, no one really cares about FG% because almost every single player is inflated by dunks (something a ton of athletes in the league could do). If you want to see their skill represented in #s, you want to see their conversion elsewhere.

---

I do understand why the stat is used. Sure that number does say something about the player. But dunks also say something about the player. And dunking is a massive part of being a big man. Everybody hates Deandre Ayton because he *won't* dunk.

I generally agree with your point, I don't want Lively at 10. That FT% is scary and I always call BS on "Workout 3P%."

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Dunking just isn't a relevant skill. No one is drafting a player based on dunks. It's not a unique or valuable skill. Mac McClung just won the dunk contest and isn't on an NBA roster lol.

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We are talking about Centers though, so making the McClung comparison is a wild mischaracterization of my argument. I'm not under the impression that dunking is extremely relevant for guards.

Guitarsoup said:

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If your need is rim protection, you may just want a guy that can threaten with the backdoor cut, alley-oop, etc on offense, and have them in there to protect the paint. Who cares if DeAndre Jordan couldn't make a 6' shot, he was an All-NBA player 3x. Robert Williams takes 70% of his shots at the rim.

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Deandre Jordan and Robert Williams are replaceable players and neither were lotto picks. I can replace 85% of their production for 25% of the cost. Nick Claxton was arguably the DPOY and he was a 2nd rd pick. If alley-ooping and rim protection is all you can do, you're not worth the investment of a top 10 pick. Kevon Looney, Jacob Poetl, Jonas Valunciunas, Steven Adams...these are all good/useful players. But they're ultimately replaceable. You have to offer something special (guard multiple positions, operate an offense, stretch the floor, etc.).

Quote:

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If you are going after a guy that has a primary duty of rim protecting, their jumper at the elbow is lower on my list of things to care about. Likely averaged 2.4bpg in 20mpg of play. That seems good.

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My entire point is that you can't use pick 10 on someone who's primary duty is to rim protect. It's not a valuable skill or impactful to winning.

shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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shack009 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Decided to dive a little deeper into some prospects the Mavs have been rumored to look at and I think I have a definitive "no thank you" stance on Lively at pick 10.

The Mavs desperately need a C, but they can't spend the 10th pick on a guy that functionally operates as taller dwight powell on offense.

— Josh, the fake mavs fan (@theMcSwag) June 8, 2023

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

But to your point, I don't think the Mavs are in the Lively market at 10. They may be in the Lively market if they trade down, though.

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Quote:

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The non-dunks stat is always funny to me. Why do dunks not count? Add in the dunks and he's probably over 60%, which is typical, if not good for a big man.

---

Because I want to parse out his touch. Dunks don't really indicate anything about a player's offensive skillset.

For example: Jalen Brunson shoots 49% from the field. That's failrly pedestrian (nothing special). But he converted something like 68% of his attempts around the rim. For an undersized Guard that's ELITE.

For bigs, no one really cares about FG% because almost every single player is inflated by dunks (something a ton of athletes in the league could do). If you want to see their skill represented in #s, you want to see their conversion elsewhere.

---

I do understand why the stat is used. Sure that number does say something about the player. But dunks also say something about the player. And dunking is a massive part of being a big man. Everybody hates Deandre Ayton because he *won't* dunk.

I generally agree with your point, I don't want Lively at 10. That FT% is scary and I always call BS on "Workout 3P%."

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Dunking just isn't a relevant skill. No one is drafting a player based on dunks. It's not a unique or valuable skill. Mac McClung just won the dunk contest and isn't on an NBA roster lol.

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We are talking about Centers though, so making the McClung comparison is a wild mischaracterization of my argument. I'm not under the impression that dunking is extremely relevant for guards.

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(insert any name) lol. I wasn't tyring to misrepresent your point. Just reinforcing my own. Every center can dunk.

When your team is built around two point guards that don't play great defense and you don't have good defense, the rim protector is a lot more important. I agree that 10 is too high for Lively, but I also would have said 10 was too high for Walker Kessler last year, so who knows.

Ya I never said the Mavs don't need rim protection. I just said it's not worth pick 10. If they want to trade back and take Lively in the 20s or something, that's fine. I just don't see the Duke Center as anything special who warrants a lotto pick.

M.C. Swag said:

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Ya I never said the Mavs don't need rim protection. I just said it's not worth pick 10. If they want to trade back and take Lively in the 20s or something, that's fine. I just don't see the Duke Center as anything special who warrants a lotto pick.

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Recent mocks have Lively in the mid to early teens now. I agree that he isn't worth a pick in the lottery, but realistically, it seems like he will make it in to the late lottery.

You just knew this would happen since he is the only Center (after Wemby) and teams would end up talking themselves in to him and convincing themselves it isn't a reach to take the 2nd best C in the late lotto.

Kessler was pick 22 also (reasonable spot for a shot blocker)

Locked On Mavs guys discussed a potential trade with Spurs on the most recent pod:

Mavs get: Keldon, the Spurs 2nd Rd pick this year, and a future protected 1st.

Spurs get: #10 and Bertans (or THJ)

My boy Tshiebwe is probably the 3rd best and will likely go undrafted haha.

M.C. Swag said:

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Kessler was pick 22 also (reasonable spot for a shot blocker)

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Kessler at 22 was an absolute steal. Led all rookies in win shares, Ws/48, VORP, box+/-, blocks, 2nd in rebound, but wasn't top 10 in minutes.

Post AS break, Kessler put up 12/11 with 3.3 bpg in under 30 mpg.

He would have been good value at 10, ****ton better than Johnny Davis

Ya he was a good pick!

Ringer NBA Draft pod discussing the possibility that Cason got a promise from Washington at #8.

Apparently he worked out for them then immediately cancelled a workout with Atlanta.

That could open up the possibility of Anthony Black or a Thompson falling?

shack009 said:

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Ringer NBA Draft pod discussing the possibility that Cason got a promise from Washington at #8.

Apparently he worked out for them then immediately cancelled a workout with Atlanta.

That could open up the possibility of Anthony Black or a Thompson falling?

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Only if Walker goes early. I think Utah takes Black or Wallace and Orlando/Indiana will take Ausur/Hendricks.

Apparently Coulibaly has been really good in the playoffs for Mets 92. Is showing secondary creation ability and is shooting over 40% on catch and shoot 3s.

He was a guy I had my eye on if the Mavs trade back but maybe he is just worth taking at 10.

He'd be a perfect fit in Washington, but he was never gonna last to Atlanta's pick or even really makes roster sense for them. Not sure if him cancelling his Atlanta workout really signals anything.