The key point is they also played during their peak years at the Astrodome. 1994/1995 Bagwell very well could have hit 60 homeruns at MMP.

Because Frank had better numbers in every category you listed except GG and SB.

Almost the entire difference in Jeff Bagwell's and Frank Thomas' are the stats that Thomas compiled after Jeff retired due to injury. Basically age 36-40 of Thomas career when he was on the downside is apparently the difference between maybe not getting in at all and being a first ballot Hall of Famer which apparently Frank Thomas is.

Meanwhile Craig Biggio probably isn't in yet because he's just a "stat compiler" playing until old age. I think he and Rafael Palmiero are the only 3000 hit members not to be first ballot hall of famers.

Its all just excuses for the writers to vote for who they want and dismiss who they don't care about. PED's just gives them another excuse added to the arsenal. Thomas played in Chicago and Bagwell played in Houston, where nobody cares, certainly not whoever has the Baseball Writers vote in BFE Ohio or Pennsylvania.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/8/2014 1:43p).]

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Because Frank had better numbers in every category you listed except GG and SB.

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Bagwell wasn't healthy the last 4 years of his career and every statistical category is VERY close minus homers. Yet frank goes FIRST BALLOT and Bagwell at this pace won't ever get in

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Almost the entire difference in Jeff Bagwell's and Frank Thomas' are the stats that Thomas compiled after Jeff retired due to injury. Basically age 36-40 of Thomas career when he was on the downside is apparently the difference between maybe not getting in at all and being a first ballot Hall of Famer which apparently Frank Thomas is.

Meanwhile Craig Biggio probably isn't in yet because he's just a "stat compiler" playing until old age. I think he and Rafael Palmiero are the only 3000 hit members not to be first ballot hall of famers.

Its all just excuses for the writers to vote for who they want and dismiss who they don't care about. PED's just gives them another excuse added to the arsenal. Thomas played in Chicago and Bagwell played in Houston, where nobody cares, certainly not whoever has the Baseball Writers vote in BFE Ohio or Pennsylvania.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/8/2014 1:43p).]

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Does MMP play favorable to right handed hitters anyway? Its got a 400 ft power alley to left with a 20 ft high fence. It seems to play neutral in the park factors (of course that doesn't mean that all the idiots and know nothing *******s didn't make their mind up after one season in Enron field after which the dimensions were changed) but Ive never looked up factors for which side of the plate you hit from. I would actually think that due to the large outfield in left where balls the other way could drop in and a comparably shorter RF power alley that the park would play much better for a LH hitter.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/8/2014 1:51p).]

Bagwell's time in MMP was largely after his shoulder injury, and he was a shell of his former self. He and Frank Thomas had very similar numbers, but Frank Thomas played an extra 3 seasons and passed 500 HRs. For all the people who criticize Biggio about being a "compiler", the only argument for Thomas over Bagwell is 100% because Thomas had a couple extra years to "compile".

Bagwell was also one of the best base runners I've seen. He had an incredible feel for snagging the extra base; going 1st to 3rd, or stretching into a double. He was really special out there.

Disappointed that Biggio didn't get in, disappointed that Bags didn't get in. It is downright absurd that Frank Thomas gets in over Bagwell. I don't know how any voter could elect Frank Thomas over Bagwell, where the real difference is stat "compiling" for an extra 3 years, and not vote for Biggio when the only real argument against him is that his numbers are stat "compiling".

Although I tend to agree that Bagwell is a HOF player, to be fair Thomas missed significant time to injury as well in his prime and later years. Of course Thomas did have the advantage of the DH, which helped his cause.

So Bagwell's shoulder kept him from putting up more numbers. Okay.

But his shoulder made him one of the worst defensive first basemen. Got'cha.

And someone called Frank Thomas a one-trick pony? Bagwell literally could not throw the ball for several years.

Injuries are a part of the game.

Bag well before the injury was one of the best defensive first basemen.

Bagwells 6 career minor league homeruns raise a big question mark for the era. Bagwell didn't hit .300 and have 500 homeruns, thomas did. I don't think thomas shoudve been a 1st ballot guy though.

But he did have this.

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So how can you lump Bagwell into the steroid group but not Thomas? They played at the exact same time

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I didn't. People around the sport have lumped Bagwell in with the steroid group.

I grew up loving Bagwell, he was my favorite Astro so you're arguing with nobody in this situation. We aren't in disagreement.

The big hurt was born big, always big, and stayed big. He has never been linked to steroids or even rumored to have done them.

I already said it's unfair to Bagwell but (I hate this phrase) it is what it is.

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And someone called Frank Thomas a one-trick pony? Bagwell literally could not throw the ball for several years.

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If you had to "rank them" Bagwell is probably one of the best throwing first basemen of all time. Frank Thomas has less than 1/3 of the throws leading to outs, and spent some time not playing any defensive position at all. Saying defense hurts Bagwell's case is asinine.

Assists as 1B s c a p y
1991 NL 106 (4th)
1992 NL 133 (2nd)
1993 NL 113 (2nd)
1994 NL 120 (1st)
1995 NL 129 (1st)
1996 NL 136 (1st)
1997 NL 137 (1st)
1998 NL 128 (3rd)
1999 NL 107 (4th)
2000 NL 116 (3rd)
2001 NL 143 (1st)
2002 NL 112 (4th)
2003 NL 112 (3rd)
2004 NL 98 (5th)
Career 1,704 (3rd)

That might have left a mark on 752bro

Frank Thomas had 3 assists in 2004. 0 after that. 497 in his career.

[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 1/8/2014 2:14p).]

From ESPN, again goes to show how ****ed up the process is:

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It’s a brutal day for Craig Biggio, who received 74.8 percent of the vote -- no rounding up in the Hall of Fame. Biggio fell just two votes shy of election, no doubt hurt by the crowded ballot and those who refuse to vote for anyone from the steroid era. I know writers who voted for the maximum 10 players but left off Biggio even though they would have otherwise voted for him. He’ll likely get in next year, but that extra 12 months of waiting is still a small dosage of cruel punishment.

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Bag well before the injury was one of the best defensive first basemen.

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and of course the year that none of the Frank Thomas voters want to talk about:

2006 at age 38 playing in Oakland...Thomas hits 39 HR. Good grief at age 38 in that giant ballpark! That doesn't raise red flags about PED's??? One of the hallmarks of the 'roid era was players having phenomenal power-hitting seasons after the age of 35

Bagwell all of a sudden became a power hitter. As someone pointed out Bagwell had little pop in the minor leagues. So it is easy to lump Bagwell in with PED users. One problem with that though IMO. Bagwell did not get outrageously big. I don't recall thinking to myself "dang, that guy is a monster". He got slightly larger but that could have been diet and lifting weights.

Sammy Sosa went off the charts big. When he came up with the Rangers he weighed 150 pounds. Same with Juan Gonzales. Gonzales was taller and could pack on more pounds but both got enormous through the years.

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and of course the year that none of the Frank Thomas voters want to talk about:

2006 at age 38 playing in Oakland...Thomas hits 39 HR. Good grief at age 38 in that giant ballpark! That doesn't raise red flags about PED's??? One of the hallmarks of the 'roid era was players having phenomenal power-hitting seasons after the age of 35

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It raises just as many flags when you're player with 4 career minor league home runs and 5 years later hits 39 in 110 games for a pace of 57 in a season in a stadium that everyone here calls a pitcher friendly park.

Not really

Biggio also went single digit HR's for the first 3 years of his career then went 20+ for a long streak. Those type of things happen, but now they are more scrutinized due to the era.

But whatever. Part of me thinks that if I remove all biases both Bags and Biggio probably did steroids. However, they were never caught, outed by former teammates and players, and weren't ever linked to them officially that we know of so they get the pass.

I want them both in.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 1/8/2014 2:46p).]

Bagwell only played 2 seasons in the minors and both in pitcher friendly leagues and his second season in a particularly hitter unfriendly park. He hit 6 homeruns in those two years but I think is SLG for his minor league career was .420ish to .450ish and he didn't even have 500 ABs over those two seasons before breaking in with the Astros.

He was also only 5 of 12 in stealing bases over those two seasons. PEDs must have really helped his foot speed.

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Biggio also went single digit HR's for the first 3 years of his career then went 20+ for a long streak

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Biggio also converted from catcher to 2nd base during the 1992 spring training.

Bagwell also hit 31 homeruns in college.

This was part of an article last year that was a response to a writer promoting Biggio for the 2013 class as the clean guy but saying Bagwell was tainted...

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Biggio was a favorite of mine, and I’d like to think he spent his entire career steroid-free. My point here isn’t to label Biggio a cheater. It’s simply to say that we don’t know, and that anyone that would go to lengths to promote him as the clean candidate is either naive or stupid.

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I basically feel like that in regards to both of them. They weren't linked to them officially and no one has come out and said they did them so they're "clean" in that regard. But with a gun to my head I wouldn't be a 100% believer that they were both clean.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 1/8/2014 2:49p).]

I'm tired of all the steroid crap. Bonds and Clemens should be in. Biggio and Bagwell should especially be in since there is no proof or rumor they ever used.

Put in the best players.

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he didn't even have 500 ABs over those two seasons before breaking in with the Astros.

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731

I want to thank everyone for the love. Its been a great day for my family and I. Also, thanks to the White Sox organization for their support. Maybe next year Biggio and Bagwell (a few years later)...sorry about 2005 also.

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I'm tired of all the steroid crap. Bonds and Clemens should be in. Biggio and Bagwell should especially be in since there is no proof or rumor they ever used.

Put in the best players.

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agree with this. Bonds and Clemens were HOF'ers whether they abused roids in the 2nd half of their career or not. They'll be tainted by public opinion forever, so let them in.

Biggio and Bagwell have never been caught or directly linked, just accused via 3rd party, etc. They both deserve it too.

16 voters didn't include Greg Maddux on their ballot. 16 voters need to lose their voting privileges.

[This message has been edited by Junkhead (edited 1/8/2014 2:59p).]

http://deadspin.com/revealed-the-hall-of-fame-voter-who-turned-his-ballot-1496558341

Great article here and kudos to Lebetard for letting DS readers vote on his ballot.

He makes a lot of sense with his reasoning as well inside the article.

I'm okay with Frank Thomas getting into the Hall of Fame, but his resume is not without suspicion. He's in that group of players that will escape the 'roid era into the HoF because there just isn't any hard evidence of their usage. Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, et al are in that group too

I really had my hopes up for Biggio this year...that's gotta be heartbreaking to come up 2 votes short. I know this Astros fan sure would have enjoyed the moment after the dismal past few years.

I don't have a problem with Frank Thomas getting in. But it's very frustrating that he's a first ballot HOFer while I'm starting to wonder if Bagwell ever makes it.

Loved Mike Piazza as a kid. Sucks to see him snubbed as well