quote:Oh brother.
Ortiz shouldn't be in.
Who was the last great catcher?
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Last: 9 yr ago by 94chem
I am a perpetual DH rule hater, sorry guys...
Fat guy swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else... not a HOF'er
Fat guy swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else... not a HOF'er
quote:Like it or not, DH is part of the game, and Ortiz is one of the greatest ever at that spot.
I am a perpetual DH rule hater, sorry guys...
Fat guy swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else... not a HOF'er
Also, considering Bagwell was a below average 1B, one could argue that he basically fit the "guy that swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else" description.
Flawed argument considering when Ortiz did play 1B he was atrociously bad, like worst in the league. Bagwell had decent range and a bad arm but could scoop like nobody's business. That averaged out to an above average defender.
quote:I can tell you're a really deep thinker...
I am a perpetual DH rule hater, sorry guys...
Fat guy swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else... not a HOF'er
4 at bats a game can be hugely impactful, and Ortiz has been hugely impactful as a player. Enough to be a Hall of Famer.
People forget but Ortiz sucked for about a third of his career. He would be one the lowest WAR position players in the HOF at 49.2, and that figure would be much lower had he played more (atrocious) defense.
quote:quote:Jeff Bagwell had a higher career WAR and more RBIs in 15 seasons than Derek Jeter had in 20 seasons. So yes, you did hear that.
Did I just read that Jeff Bagwell is more deserving of the HOF than Derek Jeter? I'm not exactly a Yankee fan either, but wow.School'd.<---LOL
Hits? Average? Gold Gloves? World Series Championships? Performing in clutch situations... Nah, none of those mean anything, do they?
I'm not even a "Jeter guy" or a Yankee fan, but come on. And I'm being nice and not even mentioning which player's numbers are tainted by steroid accusations and which ones aren't
Actually all of those are factored into WAR except for WS rings. Sooo... school'd.
If Bagwell is tainted then so is Ortiz. At least Bagwell was good his whole career (won ROtY) whereas Ortiz suddenly and mysteriously exploded when he went to Boston.. Hmm
If Bagwell is tainted then so is Ortiz. At least Bagwell was good his whole career (won ROtY) whereas Ortiz suddenly and mysteriously exploded when he went to Boston.. Hmm
Been fun guys. I must go stir up controversy elsewhere...
Since 2006, Papi is 26th in WAR; 7th in offensive WAR behind MCab, Pujols, Votto, Holliday, Braun, and Mike Trout.
He's a hofer IMO.
He's a hofer IMO.
quote:Ortiz did not suddenly and mysteriously explode when he went to Boston.
Actually all of those are factored into WAR except for WS rings. Sooo... school'd.
If Bagwell is tainted then so is Ortiz. At least Bagwell was good his whole career (won ROtY) whereas Ortiz suddenly and mysteriously exploded when he went to Boston.. Hmm
He had been on an upward trajectory with Minnesota and continued that as he went to Boston.
His last season with Minnesota, in 125 games, he hit 32 doubles and 20 home runs. That's the year after he hit 17 doubles and 18 home runs in just 89 games with Minnesota. And he hit 36 doubles (and 10 home runs) in his first full season with Minnesota.
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, his first season in Boston was his age-27 season. So he was just entering his prime as he moved to a hitter's park.
quote:
Actually all of those are factored into WAR except for WS rings. Sooo...school'd.
If Bagwell is tainted then so is Ortiz. At least Bagwell was good his whole career (won ROtY) whereas Ortiz suddenly and mysteriously exploded when he went to Boston.. Hmm
From Fangraphs:
WAR is not meant to be a perfectly precise indicator of a player's contribution, but rather an estimate of their value to date. Given the imperfections of some of the available data and the assumptions made to calculate other components, WAR works best as an approximation.
And I made no mention of Ortiz.
Impressive thread derailment
quote:
Impressive thread derailment
folks are putting way, way, way too much emphasis on the WAR statistic.
any new stat that holds Joe Mauer is such high regard...forget it. He's been a huge disappointment since the Twins moved to Target Field in 2010. He was supposed to be a 25 HR / 100 RBI guy year-in and year-out
any new stat that holds Joe Mauer is such high regard...forget it. He's been a huge disappointment since the Twins moved to Target Field in 2010. He was supposed to be a 25 HR / 100 RBI guy year-in and year-out
WAR isn't the end-all, be-all, but it's still the most all-encompassing stat for measuring total contributions to a team's success for individual players.
But you've always (wrongly) railed against Mauer, and you use RBIs of all stats to argue it.
You probably also don't rank Votto in the 10 best offensive players in the game.
But you've always (wrongly) railed against Mauer, and you use RBIs of all stats to argue it.
You probably also don't rank Votto in the 10 best offensive players in the game.
So back to the OP...Where does AJ Pierzynski rank in respect to great catchers?
His career stats are pretty good with a .281 BA (with 6 .300+ seasons), .319 OBP, .420 slugging, and .739 OPS.
Those HOF worthy?
His career stats are pretty good with a .281 BA (with 6 .300+ seasons), .319 OBP, .420 slugging, and .739 OPS.
Those HOF worthy?
Definitely not. Decent but not great hitter, decent but never elite defense.
Also, everyone hates him.
Also, everyone hates him.
Ned Yost
jeter had 260 HR. lol at the thought that he had "little power"
And Posada was an offensive machine. Molina isn't even in Posada's zip code when it comes to offense, which is saying something since people these days think they're great. Posada is a borderline HOF catcher by the eye test. Even Baseball Reference compares him to many HOF players. Posey is a HOF talent at catcher as well, barring injuries.
And Posada was an offensive machine. Molina isn't even in Posada's zip code when it comes to offense, which is saying something since people these days think they're great. Posada is a borderline HOF catcher by the eye test. Even Baseball Reference compares him to many HOF players. Posey is a HOF talent at catcher as well, barring injuries.
And David Ortiz should not be in the HOF if they're going to keep people who are steroid cheats out of the HOF.
quote:Cherry picking stats.... Such as WAR, a stat that summarizes total player value to a team...
Bagwell vs Jeter is a great example of how cherry picking stats can be made to say anything.
going back to Piazza for a minute...
Piazza at catcher was like Jeff Kent at second base...he was put somewhere...where he would do the least amount of damage defensively
Piazza at catcher was like Jeff Kent at second base...he was put somewhere...where he would do the least amount of damage defensively
and I'll say that any player that played for:
the Cubs in the 80's (WGN)
the Braves in the 90's (TBS)
or
the Yankees/Red Sox in the last 15 years (ESPN)...
their reputations have to be tamped down a little bit to offset the hype from TV exposure
the Cubs in the 80's (WGN)
the Braves in the 90's (TBS)
or
the Yankees/Red Sox in the last 15 years (ESPN)...
their reputations have to be tamped down a little bit to offset the hype from TV exposure
quote:Isn't that better than a fat guy who actively harms his team with terrible defense 15 years?
I am a perpetual DH rule hater, sorry guys...
Fat guy swings a bat 4 times a game and contributes nothing else... not a HOF'er
quote:Jeter
Bagwell vs Jeter is a great example of how cherry picking stats can be made to say anything. Of course, there really is no "Bagwell vs Jeter" debate, as nobody around baseball....NOBODY....would say Bagwell is a more deserving HOFer than Jeter.
Should Bagwell get in? I guess. I don't have an issue with him making it, but he's rightly not a 1st ballot guy. Jeter is and it isn't even close. And it's not because he was a Yankee. Had he played for KC all those years and racked up 3,400+ hits, he'd still be a 1st ballot guy. The fact that he did it in NY w/ all the pressure there, while not only winning title after title, but being one of the most clutch postseason players ever, is just that much more amazing.
.310
.377
.440
.817
113 Runs
204 Hits
32 Doubles
4 Triples
15 Home Runs
77 RBI
21 SB
3.59 WAR
B****
.297
.408
.540
.948
114 Runs
174 Hits
37 Doubles
2 Triples
34 Home Runs
115 RBI
15 SB
5.31 WAR
B**** was clearly the better hitter on a per year bases and it isn't all that close. Jeter was just able to do it for a longer period of time and played a more difficult position. I would say both were above average defenders for their respective positions. If you look at their primes, which I am defining as their best 7 years in a row, then the gap between then grows larger.
B**** (94-00)
.309
.433
.593
1.026
Jeter (98-04)
.319
.390
.477
.868
Most would agree you don't really compare SS to 1Bs. They're judged on a different level for the HOF. The HOF focuses more so on career milestone numbers and not how good a certain player was in any given year or years.
quote:Yes, you don't really compare the two. And that's the rub. Bagwell was a great masher in a generation full of them.
Most would agree you don't really compare SS to 1Bs. They're judged on a different level for the HOF. The HOF focuses more so on career milestone numbers and not how good a certain player was in any given year or years.
Jeter, however, was there with Ichiro, if you put them together, as "the" lead-off guy of his generation and arguably was "the" shortstop of his generation.
And while folks love to bash on over-hyping Yankees, the fact is Jeter has 5 rings and he was a leader on all of them. Its the Hall of Fame and leading a dynasty has to mean something.
I don't completely agree its all about career milestones. Jeter won't get elected because he hit .310, he'll get elected because he was for quite a while a threat to hit .320 or .330 or better and all that stuff he did in his prime.
The same will go for Ichiro. While he got 3000 hits, that was quite unnecessary I think for Hall of Fame chances. He was going in as the/a premier lead-off hitter of the 2000s.
quote:Dude, no. This is just crazy.
Bagwell, who is way more deserving
Deserving? I don't think so, but I'm willing to say maybe.
More deserving? No.
Way more deserving? Absurd.
quote:Why not?
Deserving? I don't think so, but I'm willing to say maybe.
And that's the difference between Astro fans, and Ranger fans (or every other fanbase really). If Ranger fans were like Astro fans, they would argue Michael Young is an absolute Hall of Famer, hell they would even argue for Rusty Greer to be in the hall.
Posey with a strong face-first slide into 3rd
quote:
And that's the difference between Astro fans, and Ranger fans (or every other fanbase really). If Ranger fans were like Astro fans, they would argue Michael Young is an absolute Hall of Famer, hell they would even argue for Rusty Greer to be in the hall.
Being a Rangers fan you've probably only been watching baseball since 2011 so you don't remember Bagwell, but Bagwell's career WAR is more than THREE TIMES that of Young, so please learn about baseball before you speak thank you.
I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.
Spare me his WAR, or his stolen bases. No one outside of Houston/Texas even remembers him playing past 2000.
Spare me his WAR, or his stolen bases. No one outside of Houston/Texas even remembers him playing past 2000.
quote:You see? When you say these things you expose yourself as someone who was not paying attention to baseball back then. It's ok, the Rangers weren't good back then and the WEATHER was not FAIR... What are you basing your assertion on that he was a below average fielder? dWAR? Please find me a first baseman EVER that had a positive dWAR (I think there is only one... Keith Hernandez with a +0.6)
I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.
Spare me his WAR, or his stolen bases. No one outside of Houston/Texas even remembers him playing past 2000.
dWAR tells you if he was an above / below average defensive positional player but does NOT tell you if he was an above / below average first baseman because the stat does not adjust for position. So basically its telling you how Bagwell would do in CF or SS (not very well).
However, if you'd ever watched Bagwell you would know he was EXCEPTIONAL at the things that you actually ask from your first baseman (fielding, scooping low throws, stretching, etc.). His only weak spot was his arm. He won a gold glove, was top 5 in fielding % among first baseman every year of his career, and top 5 in range factor every year.
None of those guys you listed had anywhere near the career impact of Bagwell. It doesn't have to be WAR. Pick any stat that calculates player value and they all come in significantly behind Bags.
In summary, you lose.
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