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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

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This is what's wrong with the perception Bagwell. He was so much more than just a masher in the steroid era. Yes he hit HRs, but he was a professional hitter. Far from what I would call a masher.

And I'm not even going to acknowledge your uniformed, asinine comment about being a below average fielder. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you never watched him play. The man was a helluva defensive player. It was just as a pleasure to watch him in the field than it was at the plate.

Every body that says Bagwell is a below average 1B clearly didn't see him in his prime and only watched him in the 2000s (which makes sense given the ages typical on this board). Bagwell in the mid 90s was one of the best 1B I have ever seen and probably the only player some would consider superior defensively was maybe Mark Grace. Bagwell wasnt a defensive liability the Astros were hiding, but a 3B moved to 1B because Caminiti had him blocked at 3B in the Astros rebuilding process.

For whoever mentioned dWAR to compare to Jeter...It's foolish because all 1B have negative dWAR

Just for fun.

wRC+
Bagwell - 149
McGriff - 134
Delgado - 135
Giambi - 140
Young - 104
Jeter - 119

Off
Bagwell - 594.6
McGriff - 409.1
Delgado - 368.8
Giambi - 430.4
Young - 28.8
Jeter - 331.9

Def
Bagwell - (82.1)
McGriff - (186.3)
Delgado - (209.1)
Giambi - (223.9)
Young - (79.4)
Jeter - (29.7)

Derek Jeters dWar gets a huge bump simply from being a SS (the stat is adjusted by position, up significantly for a SS) , a dWAR of zero is actually very hard for a SS and I actually think Jeters is the worst of all time with a significant amount of games. 1B is similarly adjusted down because 1B aren't considered to affect the game defensively and a 0 dWAR would be great.

Jeff Bagwell is no Derek Jeter, but his hall of fame status is mainly negatively affected by the Astrodome, and not playing for one of the big market teams. He would be first ballot had the red Sox not traded him imo.

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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

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This is what's wrong with the perception Bagwell. He was so much more than just a masher in the steroid era. Yes he hit HRs, but he was a professional hitter. Far from what I would call a masher.

And I'm not even going to acknowledge your uniformed, asinine comment about being a below average fielder. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you never watched him play. The man was a helluva defensive player. It was just as a pleasure to watch him in the field than it was at the plate.

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He was also one of the best base runners in the league. He impacted every phase of the game. He and Biggio were so much fun to watch in their primes.

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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

Spare me his WAR, or his stolen bases. No one outside of Houston/Texas even remembers him playing past 2000.

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You see? When you say these things you expose yourself as someone who was not paying attention to baseball back then. It's ok, the Rangers weren't good back then and the WEATHER was not FAIR... What are you basing your assertion on that he was a below average fielder? dWAR? Please find me a first baseman EVER that had a positive dWAR...

dWAR tells you if he was an above / below average defensive positional player but does NOT tell you if he was an above / below average first baseman because the stat does not adjust for position. So basically its telling you how Bagwell would do in CF or SS (not very well).
However, if you'd ever watched Bagwell you would know he was EXCEPTIONAL at the things that you actually ask from your first baseman (fielding, scooping low throws, stretching, etc.). His only weak spot was his arm. He won a gold glove, was top 5 in fielding % among first baseman every year of his career, and top 5 in range factor every year.

None of those guys you listed had anywhere near the career impact of Bagwell. It doesn't have to be WAR. Pick any stat that calculates player value and they all come in significantly behind Bags.

In summary, you lose.

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I would add that his arm was great early as he was a converted 3B. I saw him throw across the diamond after an out at first to get a guy who rounded third too far more than a few times. It was later in his career that his shoulder went to crap and caused him to hang it up. His numbers were right in line with Frank Thomas up until the end and Frank was doing more DH'ing.

He had great gap to gap power, could hit for average, great 1st to 3rd/2nd to home base runner, smart base stealer, top defender, etc. Guys who don't think he belongs in the Hall did not watch him play the game and are only looking for 3,000 hits, 500 HRs, etc.

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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

Spare me his WAR, or his stolen bases. No one outside of Houston/Texas even remembers him playing past 2000.

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You see? When you say these things you expose yourself as someone who was not paying attention to baseball back then. It's ok, the Rangers weren't good back then and the WEATHER was not FAIR... What are you basing your assertion on that he was a below average fielder? dWAR? Please find me a first baseman EVER that had a positive dWAR...

dWAR tells you if he was an above / below average defensive positional player but does NOT tell you if he was an above / below average first baseman because the stat does not adjust for position. So basically its telling you how Bagwell would do in CF or SS (not very well).
However, if you'd ever watched Bagwell you would know he was EXCEPTIONAL at the things that you actually ask from your first baseman (fielding, scooping low throws, stretching, etc.). His only weak spot was his arm. He won a gold glove, was top 5 in fielding % among first baseman every year of his career, and top 5 in range factor every year.

None of those guys you listed had anywhere near the career impact of Bagwell. It doesn't have to be WAR. Pick any stat that calculates player value and they all come in significantly behind Bags.

In summary, you lose.

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I would add that his arm was great early as he was a converted 3B. I saw him throw across the diamond after an out at first to get a guy who rounded third too far more than a few times. It was later in his career that his shoulder went to crap and caused him to hang it up. His numbers were right in line with Frank Thomas up until the end and Frank was doing more DH'ing.

He had great gap to gap power, could hit for average, great 1st to 3rd/2nd to home base runner, smart base stealer, top defender, etc. Guys who don't think he belongs in the Hall did not watch him play the game and are only looking for 3,000 hits, 500 HRs, etc.

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Or just claim steroids.

I'd put Bagwell in. To say he's more deserving than Jeter, though, is silly. They are both deserving, but between the two, Jeter is the only one that I'd put in on first ballot.

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I'd put Bagwell in. To say he's more deserving than Jeter, though, is silly. They are both deserving, but between the two, Jeter is the only one that I'd put in on first ballot.

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I would agree. Bagwell has had his time on the ballot. This should be the year to get in. Jeter will get in no later than his second ballot.

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I'd put Bagwell in. To say he's more deserving than Jeter, though, is silly. They are both deserving, but between the two, Jeter is the only one that I'd put in on first ballot.

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I would agree. Bagwell has had his time on the ballot. This should be the year to get in. Jeter will get in no later than his second ballot.

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I would have probably put Bagwell in on this most recent ballot, and Jeter is a lock for 1st ballot. I think that 2017 is the year that you see Bagwell and Raines both make it. Hoffman may make it as well, but I'm not much of a fan of that. Those are the only 3 remaining on the ballot to have received 65% or higher this year. Pudge is the only 1st ballot guy with a shot of making it in 2017.

I can see that the board doesn't really understand the WAR stats.

Carry on...

Its not his perception by fans at large that is really at issue, its the ignorance about him as a player displayed in this thread by things like what I quoted below. This kind of drivel from is not generally going to go unchallenged on this board where fans who likely watched him in hundreds and hundreds of games post.

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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

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Its not his perception by fans at large that is really at issue, its the ignorance about him as a player displayed in this thread by things like what I quoted below. This kind of drivel from is not generally going to go unchallenged on this board.

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I remember Bagwell being just another ho-hum slugging first baseman that played during the steroid era. He was a below average fielder, didn't reach 500 homers, and never did anything in the playoffs. He's basically Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado or Jason Giambi.

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Exactly... LaFraud should be banned from this board for those comments, no trial. His baseball knowledge is just laughable...

Lots of people have claimed they don't think he should get in, but nice try I guess?

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Lots of people have claimed they don't think he should get in, but nice try I guess?

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LOL!!! the irony is that the gif that you just posted applies more to you and your post than to any other post on this thread

People don't seem to like it when you make a claim and then back it up with stats / facts, I'm noticing..

Fact: Bagwell is not in the hall of fame

Fact: Jeter will go in on his first try

Yeah...I'll reiterate that I think Bagwell should get into the Hall of Fame.

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Yeah...I'll reiterate that I think Bagwell should get into the Hall of Fame.

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I don't disagree. But when astro fan comes here to say he's more deserving than Derek ****ing Jeter, it goes to show why that fan base is so laughable.

It's been obvious that Bagwell will eventually go into the Hall of Fame since he got like 45% or whatever on the first try.

Comparison to Jeter is a red herring and it was dumb to make that comparison. Jeter and Biggio are more comparable. Jeter will go in first ballot especially with the bonus of rings and market, and being a slightly better overall player for a long period of time, while Biggio got in on the 3rd try.

I'll be interested to see if Ichiro Suzuki is a first ballot Hall of Famer, wrt to the 3000 hit magic number and very high career peak but many years of just hanging around as a replacement level player. It still smells a little funny to me that everybody largely gets in first ballot with 3000 hits while people tried to say Biggio was only a compiler (compilers dont generally have seasons at like 9.5 WAR or a 5 year period with 33 WAR). I bet Ichiro gets in on the first try while Biggio didnt.

I am curious what Astros fans think of Larry Walker, who hasn't sniffed getting into the Hall of Fame yet basically had the same career as Jeff Bagwell.

Similar parks too.

Ichiro probably doesn't need 3000 hits to be on my first ballot.

Biggio...I guess my comparison would be Robin Yount in terms of similar guys, and both played 20 years and got over 3000 hits. Yount won a couple of MVPs and squeaked in on the first ballot. Biggio didn't win the MVPs and didn't get in on the first ballot.

I wouldnt have problem with Larry Walker getting in, he's probably another player who people have no clue what they are talking about when discussing him. Also, they typical RF in the hall of fame is also as good or better than Larry Walker while the typical 1B is worse than Jeff Bagwell.

Idiots like LeFraud probably think of Larry Walker as a Coors Field slugger, who finished his career with not even 400 homeruns rather than as the amazing overall outfielder with excellent defense and speed.

And having said that, I looked it up.

Baseball Reference has Robin Yount as most similar to Biggio.

And one Derek Jeter as second most similar.

Jeter has superior averages and hit total. And thus I suppose those who argue Biggio should have been in on the first ballot (or second ballot) can't argue much about Jeter getting in on his 1st or 2nd try.

I started a thread a few years back about Ichiro being a first ballot guy. He was the premier right fielder, lead-off man, contact hitter and base stealer for a decade. He didn't start playing MLB until 27...

Derek Jeter's most similar player is Craig Biggio.

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I started a thread a few years back about Ichiro being a first ballot guy. He was the premier right fielder, lead-off man, contact hitter and base stealer for a decade. He didn't start playing MLB until 27...

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Out of curiosity do you think Biggio should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer?

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I'll be interested to see if Ichiro Suzuki is a first ballot Hall of Famer, wrt to the 3000 hit magic number and very high career peak but many years of just hanging around as a replacement level player. It still smells a little funny to me that everybody largely gets in first ballot with 3000 hits while people tried to say Biggio was only a compiler (compilers dont generally have seasons at like 9.5 WAR or a 5 year period with 33 WAR). I bet Ichiro gets in on the first try while Biggio didnt.

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That is not an apple's to apple's comparision. Ichiro started in the Japanese league and gather 1278 hits there before heading to the MLB at age 27. Biggio started in the MLB at 22. If Ichiro played his entire career in the MLB, no telling how many hits he would have at this point. 3500? more?

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I am curious what Astros fans think of Larry Walker, who hasn't sniffed getting into the Hall of Fame yet basically had the same career as Jeff Bagwell.

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Fewer runs, hits, HRs, and RBIs in COLORADO.

His stats in Montreal & St Louis do not compare to his stats in Colorado.

Even with that bump he is still probably borderline HOF in my book.