He's won 92 games while pitching fewer than 20 games per year. He won 2 Cy Young Awards by winning 21 of 64 starts. He's averaging less than 8 wins per year. 10+ wins four times. He's 26th in wins since his rookie year trailing Michael Wacha and 24 others. How is this a thread?
Official Hall of Fame Discussion
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jja79 said:
He's won 92 games while pitching fewer than 20 games per year. He won 2 Cy Young Awards by winning 21 of 64 starts. He's averaging less than 8 wins per year. How is this even a thread?
At some point the voters realized wins weren't an accurate measure of a pitcher's performance.
I don't think he's in right now, but to denigrate his CYs because the Mets didn't score enough seems a little disingenuous, or if not then oblivious.
He received 29 of 30 first place votes each time.
https://www.mlb.com/amp/news/jacob-degrom-wins-2nd-straight-nl-cy-young.html
He won based on his metrics, and whether the Mets put enough runs on the board to get a W was irrelevant.
How many starts do the Pirates have to win for Skenes to be considered the best pitcher in the NL this season?
The traditionalist in me agrees with you and wants to value a win, but he had a 1.70 ERA in 32 starts and only won 10 times. The Mets let him down 22 times that year.
His worst game all year was a 6 inning outing giving up 4 runs in April. Any other year and he wins 25 games not 10.
In his 9 losses that year he gave up only 19 total earned runs. So the average deGrom loss that year was 7IP and 2 earned runs.
It's a conversation because he has put together a phenomenal career despite not amassing the counting stats at the same rate of his peers.
His worst game all year was a 6 inning outing giving up 4 runs in April. Any other year and he wins 25 games not 10.
In his 9 losses that year he gave up only 19 total earned runs. So the average deGrom loss that year was 7IP and 2 earned runs.
It's a conversation because he has put together a phenomenal career despite not amassing the counting stats at the same rate of his peers.
Also, for all the marbles are you taking Michael Wacha (who I like and has had a good career) over Jacob deGrom?
The Original Houston 1836 said:You're making my points for me.AggieEP said:
There is nothing gerrymandered about this.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id/32796/year/2021/category/pitching
Healthy deGrom is the best starting pitcher of his era, but he had bad luck with injuries. His first TJ surgery made it to where he didn't debut until he was 26 years old, and his second one cost him basically 2 full seasons.
Now he's back healthy and dominating just like the old deGrom.
There was a 3 month period in there where deGrom gave up 6 ERs total.
Earlier a poster said that he wasn't Koufax, but really it's an apt comparison. He should have won 20 games a year but his team let him down consistently. If deGrom had 175 wins right now, maybe some of you would view this differently.
He doesn't have 175 wins. He doesn't even have 100. He's just as likely to get hurt tomorrow and miss 2 more years as he is to go 16-5 this year and win the Cy Young. He's had a great career, if you can't stay healthy, you're not making the HoF. There are literally dozens of examples across time including a few below.
Does JR Richard belong in the Hall of Fame? He had 5 straight years of 18-20 wins and was having his best season ever in 1980 when he had a stroke and never pitched again. More than 300 strikeouts twice, 107-71 record, 3.15 ERA.
I'm an Astro die-hard, but I don't think he's in the HOF because his career ended too soon because of injuries. He got 1.6% of the vote in 1986 for the Hall.
How about Don Mattingly? Easily the best offensive player in baseball from 1984-1987, and had a couple more good years, then injuries destroyed him. He's got 2,153 hits and 222 career HR. Hall of Fame? He peeked at 28.2% of the vote in 2001.
How about Nomar Garciaparra? As good as Jeter or A-Rod from 1997-2003, then injuries took over and he as a shell of his former self from 2004-2009. Didn't even get to 2,000 hits. .321 batting average in the post-season. Got 5.5% and 1.8% of the HOF vote.
How about Thurman Munson? Won an MVP, won Rookie of the Year, .292 career hitter, won 3 Gold Glove, made the All-Star team 7 times, hit .373 in 3 WS appearances, won 2 titles, and died in a plane crash at age 32. Hall of Fame? Peaked at 15.5% of the vote in 1981.
What about Fernando? Won the Cy-Young as a rookie in 1981, had 111 wins by age 26, finished top 5 for Cy Young 4 time, was a national phenomenon the likes of which baseball has rarely seen since, and had a 1.98 career post-season ERA. Then fell off from injuries from 1988-1997 and limped to a 173-153 record HOF?
What about Orel Hershisher? From 84-89, his ERAs were 2.66, 2.03, 3.85, 3.06, 2.26, 2.31. Had a 19-3 seaso with a 2.03 ERA, won the Cy Young going 23-8 with 15 complete games and 8 shutouts, and owns one of the most improbably records of all time for consective scoreless innings, won a Cy Young and was MVP of the NLCS and the World Series the same year. But also threw his arm out by leading the NL in innings pitched 3 straight years from 1987-1989. Missed almost all of 1990 and was OK, but not great the rest of his career. 204-150 record. Hall of Fame? Never got higher than 11.2%.
What about Bret Saberhagen? Two Cy Youngs by age 25. Two 20+ win seasons by age 25, a legendary 1989 season - 23-6, 2.16 ERA, 12 complete games, 262 innings pitched. Had an 18-10 season on there as well. At age 25 he was 92-61 he had more wins at age 25 than deGrom has now. Then he got hurt in 1990 at age 26 and never won more than 14 games again but still finished 50 games over .500 for his career (167-117) . Ws also World Series MVP at age 21. He got 1.3% of the vote in 2007.
Do they all get in? If not, how come?
IF the bolded above is true (and you guys are going to have to argue that; I'm not able to make a determination), the players you mentioned aren't all that relevant. Even you admit they all got injured and tailed off, disappearing essentially. Plus, they weren't the best players of their era -- heck 3 of the ones you mentioned were in the same era, and Richard wasn't far off. They couldn't have all been the best. Not to mention Jack Morris, Nolan, and arguably Dave Steib and Dwight Gooden. I think Munson's career would have ended anyway in '80 or '81, or he would have been traded to somewhere like Cleveland.
Besides, all the pitchers you mentioned had a lifetime ERA of almost a run more. Only Saberhagen was within a run and he was still well over 3. deGrom is around 2.5. You mentioned a lot of post-season accolades. I think the voters dismiss a lot of that. Ichiro was the second highest vote-getter of all time and only played in 19 post-season games (over 2 seasons) in roughly the same number of years' career (although he did play fairly well in them).
While it is certainly open for discussion, looking at who was left out requires a total look and not the absence of important stats.
"Wins" measure team performance as much or more than pitching performance. I think it's a pretty terrible stat to judge a pitcher on.
AggieEP said:
Also, for all the marbles are you taking Michael Wacha (who I like and has had a good career) over Jacob deGrom?
Of course not. That was my point. He's not top 25 in wins during his career. The standings still are arranged by wins right?
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So if a guy started 30 games a year and went 0-15 with a 1.70 ERA and 15 no decisions, would you guys vote for him for Cy Young?
There are stats now that give us a better idea of a players impact independent of factors they cannot control like team performance.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/degroms-2018-numbers-rank-with-greatest-in-mlb-history/
https://metsmerizedonline.com/degroms-2018-season-one-of-the-greatest-in-baseball-history/
https://www.reddit.com/r/mlb/comments/x8rgep/degrom_has_allowed_1_run_or_fewer_in_49_of_his/
The craziest statement in there is that 21 times in 2018 deGrom allowed 1 or 0 runs in a start and was only 9-2 in those games with 10 no decisions.
Also the last link you can see that deGrom gives up 1 or 0 ERs in about half of his starts. That is insane. If his teams had provided him any support he'd already be at 150 wins and maybe some of you would view this differently.
As for the poster who asked about him going 0-15 with a 1.70 ERA, yeah he'd still be my Cy Young award winner. All he can do as a pitcher is prevent runs which gives his team a high win probability. And healthy deGrom is about the most effective pitcher in the game. Look at the following link on baseball savant and switch through the years to see how he's top of the scale in pretty much every metric we can measure a pitcher by.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jacob-degrom-594798
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/degroms-2018-numbers-rank-with-greatest-in-mlb-history/
https://metsmerizedonline.com/degroms-2018-season-one-of-the-greatest-in-baseball-history/
https://www.reddit.com/r/mlb/comments/x8rgep/degrom_has_allowed_1_run_or_fewer_in_49_of_his/
The craziest statement in there is that 21 times in 2018 deGrom allowed 1 or 0 runs in a start and was only 9-2 in those games with 10 no decisions.
Also the last link you can see that deGrom gives up 1 or 0 ERs in about half of his starts. That is insane. If his teams had provided him any support he'd already be at 150 wins and maybe some of you would view this differently.
As for the poster who asked about him going 0-15 with a 1.70 ERA, yeah he'd still be my Cy Young award winner. All he can do as a pitcher is prevent runs which gives his team a high win probability. And healthy deGrom is about the most effective pitcher in the game. Look at the following link on baseball savant and switch through the years to see how he's top of the scale in pretty much every metric we can measure a pitcher by.
https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jacob-degrom-594798
To add to your point, in 2018... deGrom won the Cy Young.
Yes, he was 10-9, 1.70 ERA, 217.0 IP, 269 K (11.2 SO9) and a 0.912 WHIP
I think him winning the Cy Young and being an AS that year indicates that while Wins are important, voters are willing to consider the context of a player relative to his team's support.
I believe deGrom has some work to do. I think he will get there.
Things that will help:
If he makes the ASG, it will be his 6th.
His WAR is likely to go up. Avg WAR is 66. He sits at 45.3. All the things that will bring that up will be a plus.
I think he needs to be an AS in '25. Wouldn't hurt to add another next year.
I think winning the CyYoung again would clinch it. Could be this year, although tons of games left for the year.
Winning another WS would be nice. Especially if he contributes to this one. He could use some improvement to Post-Season numbers.
Yes, he was 10-9, 1.70 ERA, 217.0 IP, 269 K (11.2 SO9) and a 0.912 WHIP
I think him winning the Cy Young and being an AS that year indicates that while Wins are important, voters are willing to consider the context of a player relative to his team's support.
I believe deGrom has some work to do. I think he will get there.
Things that will help:
If he makes the ASG, it will be his 6th.
His WAR is likely to go up. Avg WAR is 66. He sits at 45.3. All the things that will bring that up will be a plus.
I think he needs to be an AS in '25. Wouldn't hurt to add another next year.
I think winning the CyYoung again would clinch it. Could be this year, although tons of games left for the year.
Winning another WS would be nice. Especially if he contributes to this one. He could use some improvement to Post-Season numbers.
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Hope he gets traded if he wants another WSDallasAg 94 said:
Winning another WS would be nice. Especially if he contributes to this one. He could use some improvement to Post-Season numbers.
.
I would like to add... if you haven't seen deGrom pitch... you ought to treat yourself. Whether he makes the HoF, he is an amazing pitcher to watch.
He looks effortlessly and has the best command and control I've ever seen.
He looks effortlessly and has the best command and control I've ever seen.
Last comment about comparing Ps of different eras.
I think you can't compare Ps before 1969 with Ps from 1969-current.
I think the Roid era should have special consideration.
I think we've entered a new Era.... started June 2018. MLB bought Rawlings and has manipulated the baseball almost every year. A pitcher in 2019 played with a juiced ball that was tighter wound. A pitcher in 2025 is throwing a dead ball that demonstrates more drag, if we are to believe wide speculation.
Physics says a ball hit that has the same exit velocity and the same exit angle, SHOULD demonstrate the same distance and it should be predictable. Wind, temperature, and humidity all play a factor, but over the coarse of a season of 162G in 30 cities should NOT exhibit predictable differences if the baseball is the same.
Games at the JuiceBox and the HomeDepot Grill , enclosed and controlled environments should NOT vary distance.
I think you can't compare Ps before 1969 with Ps from 1969-current.
I think the Roid era should have special consideration.
I think we've entered a new Era.... started June 2018. MLB bought Rawlings and has manipulated the baseball almost every year. A pitcher in 2019 played with a juiced ball that was tighter wound. A pitcher in 2025 is throwing a dead ball that demonstrates more drag, if we are to believe wide speculation.
Physics says a ball hit that has the same exit velocity and the same exit angle, SHOULD demonstrate the same distance and it should be predictable. Wind, temperature, and humidity all play a factor, but over the coarse of a season of 162G in 30 cities should NOT exhibit predictable differences if the baseball is the same.
Games at the JuiceBox and the HomeDepot Grill , enclosed and controlled environments should NOT vary distance.
Not saying he's not really good but attendance also counts and he's got too many absences for me.
DallasAg 94 said:
To add to your point, in 2018... deGrom won the Cy Young.
Yes, he was 10-9, 1.70 ERA, 217.0 IP, 269 K (11.2 SO9) and a 0.912 WHIP
I think him winning the Cy Young and being an AS that year indicates that while Wins are important, voters are willing to consider the context of a player relative to his team's support.
I believe deGrom has some work to do. I think he will get there.
Things that will help:
If he makes the ASG, it will be his 6th.
His WAR is likely to go up. Avg WAR is 66. He sits at 45.3. All the things that will bring that up will be a plus.
I think he needs to be an AS in '25. Wouldn't hurt to add another next year.
I think winning the CyYoung again would clinch it. Could be this year, although tons of games left for the year.
Winning another WS would be nice. Especially if he contributes to this one. He could use some improvement to Post-Season numbers.
I can see contributing to a WS win being better than not.
Agreeing that attendence matters, it's not like a Josh Hamilton or Doc Gooden situation where he lost years to cocaine addiction. He's had really bad luck with when he's been slowed by injuries.
If he could have made it even 6 or 7 more starts in 2021 he'd have CY number 3 already and likely we'd reminisce on that season as the greatest single season performance by a pitcher EVER. He had a WHIP of .55 halfway through the season. Barry Bonds on the cream and clear levels of statistical insanity to carry a .55 WHIP for half a season.
Basically what this conversation boils down to though is if you believe the Hall of Fame is for the best players in history, or the best compilers in history. Personally I think there is room for BOTH in the hall. Baines being in doesn't pain me, because he's your example of good attendence and longevity from an above average player.
But deGrom is maybe one of the top 2-3 pitchers of all time statistically. I don't think there is a logical argument where you leave out a guy like that unless he gives you a reason to (drug addiction, PED user, domestic abuse)
At this point he's 37, he's not likely to reach 2500 innings, he's not going to reach 150 wins, so he'll never win over those that value stat accumulation. But this shouldn't diminish the fact that when he has the ball in his hand, there is about a 98% chance he's going to dominate.
If he could have made it even 6 or 7 more starts in 2021 he'd have CY number 3 already and likely we'd reminisce on that season as the greatest single season performance by a pitcher EVER. He had a WHIP of .55 halfway through the season. Barry Bonds on the cream and clear levels of statistical insanity to carry a .55 WHIP for half a season.
Basically what this conversation boils down to though is if you believe the Hall of Fame is for the best players in history, or the best compilers in history. Personally I think there is room for BOTH in the hall. Baines being in doesn't pain me, because he's your example of good attendence and longevity from an above average player.
But deGrom is maybe one of the top 2-3 pitchers of all time statistically. I don't think there is a logical argument where you leave out a guy like that unless he gives you a reason to (drug addiction, PED user, domestic abuse)
At this point he's 37, he's not likely to reach 2500 innings, he's not going to reach 150 wins, so he'll never win over those that value stat accumulation. But this shouldn't diminish the fact that when he has the ball in his hand, there is about a 98% chance he's going to dominate.
I have a friend who was a teammate of Baines and can't believe he's in the HOF. We don't have to agree on deGrom because we don't vote. Maybe if he could pitch more than 6 innings he'd have more wins. That's a whole other discussion the way pitchers are handled today.
The Original Houston 1836 said:
So if a guy started 30 games a year and went 0-15 with a 1.70 ERA and 15 no decisions, would you guys vote for him for Cy Young?
100%
You think Greinke is a lock? I don't. He's borderline imo
100%dixichkn said:
You think Greinke is a lock? I don't. He's borderline imo
His numbers are strangely similar to CC's, who just got voted in. Plus, he has some GG and SS to help his case,
If guys like ZG aren't getting in, then we're not going to see pitchers get in moving forward. His case is going to be better than Cole, Wheeler, or any of the next crop of pitchers (anyone 28-35)
jja79 said:
Not saying he's not really good but attendance also counts and he's got too many absences for me.
This is the biggest thing for me. I also think the fact he has played so few games is skewing his "average stats." Comparing his ERA, when he has pitched so few innings, against someone's career ERA when they pitched twice as many games, over 20 seasons, isn't really fair.
None of this really matters, though, because he's not even the front runner for the Cy Young award. Starting the conversation saying acting like he's a lock for a third Cy Young is flawed. He's third or fourth right now. Plus, he's likely to miss at least another season or two for injury.
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
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Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
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Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
So how do you justify all the measly 20 game winners in the Hall when guys like Old Hoss Radborn were winning 40-60 games a year?
Or all the 300 win guys when someone like Cy Young set the standard at over 500?
There are 278 players in the HOF and there have been 23,520 big leaguers. So anyone in the Hall is roughly in the top 1% who have ever played....and you'd like to eliminate scores of that 1%?
The Original Houston 1836 said:Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
What if a player put up the same #s as Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson (pick one) yet only had 97 wins because their team sucked. Would they be HOF worthy?
We're approaching beating a dead horse status here, but why is your focus solely on the win total? Clearly his win results are a huge anomaly. He's pitched well enough to be sitting with 130-140 wins, but the Mets consistently let him down.
We're also not talking about the hall of really good here with deGrom. We're talking about one of the top 2-3 men to ever pitch a baseball (when he's healthy)
I think all of us arguing for deGrom wish that he'd not missed so much time for injury, but that one factor doesn't hold me back from supporting his case.
We're also not talking about the hall of really good here with deGrom. We're talking about one of the top 2-3 men to ever pitch a baseball (when he's healthy)
I think all of us arguing for deGrom wish that he'd not missed so much time for injury, but that one factor doesn't hold me back from supporting his case.
Good point.....wins are probably the worst metric out there to measure a pitcher's individual performance.
Farmer1906 said:The Original Houston 1836 said:Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
What if a player put up the same #s as Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson (pick one) yet only had 97 wins because their team sucked. Would they be HOF worthy?
If folks ding Nolan Ryan for not having as many wins as he should have when he had 198 non-win quality starts with a 2.27 ERA and 0 wins (91 were no-decisions) in those 198 quality starts then, yeah they should ding another player.
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DeGrom's teams' winning percentages:Farmer1906 said:The Original Houston 1836 said:Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
What if a player put up the same #s as Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson (pick one) yet only had 97 wins because their team sucked. Would they be HOF worthy?
Mets 2014-2022: .486
Rangers 2023-2025: .512
Nolan's teams winning percentages:
1966-1971 Mets .479
1972-1979 Angels .481
1980-1988 Astros .514
1989-1994 Rangers .504
Nolan's teams sucked almost exactly as much as DeGrom's, but he stayed healthy and won 324 games despite the long stretches of ineptitude. . That's why he's in the HOF
Great, but that doesn't answer the question. It's a zoomed out view and not what actually happened when these guys pitched.The Original Houston 1836 said:DeGrom's teams' winning percentages:Farmer1906 said:The Original Houston 1836 said:Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
What if a player put up the same #s as Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson (pick one) yet only had 97 wins because their team sucked. Would they be HOF worthy?
Mets 2014-2022: .486
Rangers 2023-2025: .512
Nolan's teams winning percentages:
1966-1971 Mets .479
1972-1979 Angels .481
1980-1988 Astros .514
1989-1994 Rangers .504
Nolan's teams sucked almost exactly as much as DeGrom's, but he stayed healthy and won 324 games despite the long stretches of ineptitude. . That's why he's in the HOF
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My real issue is the assertion that 'his teams sucks' as if DeGrom is some superior being to his teammates and every opponent they played. Have you looked at his game by game for 2018? I did a few days ago.AggieEP said:
We're approaching beating a dead horse status here, but why is your focus solely on the win total? Clearly his win results are a huge anomaly. He's pitched well enough to be sitting with 130-140 wins, but the Mets consistently let him down.
We're also not talking about the hall of really good here with deGrom. We're talking about one of the top 2-3 men to ever pitch a baseball (when he's healthy)
I think all of us arguing for deGrom wish that he'd not missed so much time for injury, but that one factor doesn't hold me back from supporting his case.
Two of his "suck" no-decisions featured him getting lifted after 4 innings injured and him pitching 1 inning in his next start as an opener. But we're blaming the Mets offense for those being non-wins? He's the one that didn't stay in the game long enough to qualify for a win.
At least three other games he was beaten by a pitcher who had a better outing than he did. Is it all on the Mets offense for the loss, or can the opposing pitcher - also a major league baseball player - be given credit for outpitching DeGrom?
In another game, he got lifted trailing 4-3 and the the Mets scored 4 runs in the 7th and 8th to win the game, keeping him from taking a loss. Should the Mets offense say they won that game despite DeGrom sucking?
The Original Houston 1836
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OK , well to retierate my point. I wouldn't even put Jesus in the HOF with 92 career wins.Farmer1906 said:Great, but that doesn't answer the question. It's a zoomed out view and not what actually happened when these guys pitched.The Original Houston 1836 said:DeGrom's teams' winning percentages:Farmer1906 said:The Original Houston 1836 said:Not necessarily, but I'm sure as **** not putting in a guy with 91 career wins at age 37.Farmer1906 said:If no batters reach 500 HR or pitchers reach 300 wins, do we just shut down the HOF for the rest of baseball moving forward?The Original Houston 1836 said:Yep.AgRyan04 said:
Let me ask this for those arguing against deGrom
From the last 15 years, are Kershaw, Verlander, and Scherzer the only worthy HOF starters for an entire generation?
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good or the hall of really good if you overlook my frequent injuries.
I have zero problem with the highest of standards for the greatest of honors. I'm an Astros die-hard and I don't think Jeff Bagwell should be in either because he didn't get to 500 HR or anywhere near 3,000 hits. There are scores of players I would wipe out of the HOF if I was in charge, which fortunately, I am not.
What if a player put up the same #s as Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson (pick one) yet only had 97 wins because their team sucked. Would they be HOF worthy?
Mets 2014-2022: .486
Rangers 2023-2025: .512
Nolan's teams winning percentages:
1966-1971 Mets .479
1972-1979 Angels .481
1980-1988 Astros .514
1989-1994 Rangers .504
Nolan's teams sucked almost exactly as much as DeGrom's, but he stayed healthy and won 324 games despite the long stretches of ineptitude. . That's why he's in the HOF
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