So, in this example, let's say I went to an exchange and bought some bitcoin. That exchange sold me mixed coins without my knowledge and possibly without their knowledge.

You're saying that you should return the potentially mixed coins which are potentially linkable to the exchange hack, despite zero involvement? At a loss?

Solely based off what I know, which is the bitcoin was stolen, I think it should be returned. There are a lot of unknown variables that could persuade a different answer. If I purchased some good, service, or other and was paid with the stolen bitcoin, for example, do I have recourse? That changes the dynamic. I don't think I should have to take a loss because someone paid me with purloined loot in that case.

What if there is legal recourse back to you for holding onto the stolen bitcoin? Assuming it is traceable, it might be essentially useless if moving it puts you on the radar of those that can trace it back to the breach. I wouldn't want to spend time in prison in such case.

I think its a great question with more than the simple answer I originally provided, if other factors come into play.

But, I don't think crypto stolen in a breach is just up for the taking. It was stolen. It was someone else's property.

I think white hats would take a bounty for discovering a flaw.

Black Hats are another animal and play a role in the environment of predator prey on security evolution.

All are important to a strong ecosystem of trust. If a 3rd party acts as a trusted party but cannot defend that trust, it should not be trusted and should suffer the consequences, whether paying bounties or losing their business.

I lost thousands of ETH when Cryptsy exchange owner walked away with everything on exchange. Because I didn't keep records of my transactions I had no recourse.

Similarly with the Mt gox hack/wiley bot fiasco.

And then who do you return it to? The faulty exchange or the person(s) specifically affected? The arbitrator?

Dunno, what if the investigators lie and say that your coins are listed as stolen coins? Investigators lie and steal all the time like during the Silk Road debacle.

It's definitely a philosophical and then legal question, not a bitcoin protocol question.


This couple should be in jail just for making this video:

The new face of Bitcoin https://t.co/td5IfpaNdX pic.twitter.com/bN3knaE3n1

— SwiftOnSecurity (@SwiftOnSecurity) February 8, 2022

Amazingly, Heather Morgan gave a talk at NYC Salon (an event I used to run with @ruthienachmany) in 2019

Here's her talk: pic.twitter.com/RFovec0tek

— Tarun Chitra (@tarunchitra) February 8, 2022

Lol

I bet Kevin Mitnick is a proud papa right about now

carl spacklers hat said:

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Solely based off what I know, which is the bitcoin was stolen, I think it should be returned. There are a lot of unknown variables that could persuade a different answer. If I purchased some good, service, or other and was paid with the stolen bitcoin, for example, do I have recourse? That changes the dynamic. I don't think I should have to take a loss because someone paid me with purloined loot in that case.

What if there is legal recourse back to you for holding onto the stolen bitcoin? Assuming it is traceable, it might be essentially useless if moving it puts you on the radar of those that can trace it back to the breach. I wouldn't want to spend time in prison in such case.

I think its a great question with more than the simple answer I originally provided, if other factors come into play.

But, I don't think crypto stolen in a breach is just up for the taking. It was stolen. It was someone else's property.

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I would think if an exchange sells you stolen goods, it should be the responsibility of the exchange to return it to the owner and reimburse the buyer.

What is keeping the price of BTC down? I don't mind too much because I'm just DCA'ing, but it's just crazy to me that with all the news about corporations buying it, it's still staying down.

ac04 said:

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its up 14% in the past week. are you going to continue asking this once a month until we break ATH again?

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It's up 32% since its recent low on Jan 24 - two weeks ago.

Ukraine: you won't be able to take our wealth, we are converting it to bitcoin!

Yes. Though, his posting history suggests he will switch to asking why it isn't going up faster after hitting the ATH.

Ahh he's a F-boy;

A fiat boy.


Also, another resource for newBtcs:
https://bitcoiner.guide/

Just got finished with the Inaugural Montrose Bitcoin Meetup.

Solid core. Gonna be a great thing for our little community out here.

Can't believe I've put this off for 7 years.

I encourage everyone here to engage in or start a community bitcoin meetup.

BlackRock has entered the chat….

The world’s largest asset manager plans to let its clients trade #bitcoin

BlackRock manages over $10 trillion in assets, with clients including public pension schemes, endowments and sovereign wealth funds.https://t.co/Q4isBxIRN9

— Documenting ₿itcoin 📄 (@DocumentingBTC) February 9, 2022

Between Blackrock, the seizure of bitfinex's hacked coins, Russia legalizing bitcoin as currency...

How many more blocks until we have bitcoin a global standard?

In my humble opinion:

Shortest term: 3-5 years (very aggressive)
More likely: 10 years, following continued organic growth of BTC

Central banks are not going to go down without a fight, and the U.S. is the 800 pound gorilla re: reserve currency. I just don't see how there isn't a fight over the designation/adoption. What kind of chaos or upheaval might accompany that paradigm shift?

Once you see what they did to the money, you see what they do everywhere

— Simply Sovereign (@SimplySovBTC) February 10, 2022

****in right.

Once you see, you can't pull the blanket back over your eyes.

800 lb gorilla?

The gorilla that told putin "stahp or I'll sanction you", to which he was like, "look, we do bitcoin now. You're NGMI"

Sure looks like a 800 year old gorilla not a young testosterone fueled 800 lb silverback thats threatening the globe.

Probably about the length of time it would take me to manually calculate the conversion rate of Bolivar to bits (sats).

Which is still much sooner than I would've expected


Also, El Salvador is still planning on their $1 BILLION USD BTC bond. Likely mid-late March.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/02/09/el-salvador-bitcoin-bond-issuance-coming-as-soon-as-march-15-finance-minister/

How long does the 800 lb gorilla last if you assume the gorilla has gotten a bit fat and lazy resting on it's laurels, and there are two 400 lb gorillas gunning for that #1 spot? Gets a bit more interesting in a hurry I'd say.

Also, the USD and other national currencies still work despite the existence of gold. So I'd imagine the future of BTC<--> CBDC would look more like this relationship as it currently seems like there will be a lot of people on the outside looking in at BTC hodlers.

Quote:

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It's definitely a philosophical and then legal question, not a bitcoin protocol question.

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until Bitcoin is able to bridge the gap between these legal and philosophical questions and the bitcoin protocol, it will appear like an also ran except for simple use cases. otherwise Bitcoin will always need government, or an agreed upon third-party enforcement body, to arbitrate user disputes

You're mixing it up, whether that arbitration will be built into the bitcoin network or aroundit has nothing to do with bitcoin. The world will build itself to work in bitcoins network, not force its will to change the protocol somehow...

With bitcoin it's simple, he who owns the private keys owns the coins, illicitly or licitly.

Want something more than that?
Setup a multi-signature wallet. Our bitciin meetup did that for our funds back in 2014. And it's only gotten easier since then.

In response to both you and Midnight's comments, I'm not arguing that the gorilla is healthy but the US still has plenty of weight it will throw around, which is why I think it will be messy. Nothing in recent history supports an argument otherwise. When the controlling party's control is threatened it is impossible to predict how it will react to that threat. You know control won't be relinquished without a fight.

ac04 said:

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when used properly there is no need for a third party,

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define "properly"

And technically they had an encrypted cloud file that secured the access. Either the fbi fingered the couple and they gave up the pw or the govt spent 6 years breaking the encryption to ensure the funds weren't lost forever.

Breaking that encryption would be a real story and the details haven't been released yet.

Here's a breakdown with Odell:

The result was an insecure setup where bitgo blindly signed any bitfinex customer withdrawal request without additional authorization, by design.

An extremely insecure setup that could have been easily compromised through effective social engineering. pic.twitter.com/VCQUNVHsco

— ODELL (@ODELL) February 9, 2022

And another with Eric wall:

My main takeaways from @HeatherReyhan’s talk ”How to Social Engineer Your Way Into ANYTHING” at @tarunchitra’s NYC Salon. 🧵 pic.twitter.com/WcKA6Jtlcw

— Eric Wall (@ercwl) February 9, 2022

Quote:

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With bitcoin it's simple, he who owns the private keys owns the coins, illicitly or licitly.

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this isnt even correct it the current environment of bitcoin leverage, borrowing, and securitization.

Maybe this is for another thread, but not sure another bitcoin thread is necessary.

What is some of y'all's perspective on investing in mining companies on NYSE vs buying bitcoin? Obviously the pro is the mining company mines the coins for 'free' minus the capital and operational costs. Some are mining around 1 BTC/hour right now.

ac04 said:

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tysker said:

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ac04 said:

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when used properly there is no need for a third party,

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define "properly"

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taking appropriate measures to secure your private keys.

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so the individual actor has no recourse or protection for a black swan event? seems like a look of risk for a clearly undefined upside

well then it's a good thing you're not responsible for other people's money

and your bitcoin wont be your kids money unless they have the private keys right? how and when are you transferring those private keys to your kids? gifting the BTC themselves would create a taxable event and counter to the spirit of the asset