Cost of Education vs Income

8,403 Views | 50 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by double aught
Stringfellow Hawke
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Companion thread to Salary thread:

* Education- Bachelor Degree/Teacher Certification/EMS Certified with total cost being $55,000

*income- $60,000

If you don't want to list exact income, could state five/six figures etc.

I wish I would of gone into fire/EMS straight of HS. Would be much better off with cost of bachelor degree.
BenTheGoodAg
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Electrical Engineering. At the time, $60k for a degree. No idea what it goes for today.

A huge range of salaries and relative opportunities available. Typically starting over $80k these days, but not unusual to end up in the $120k-170k range with experience in a typical office setting. A lot of opportunities for higher pay, but may come with other intangible drawbacks/benefits.

It also has opened a lot of doors for me and others, like management or other less technical roles. I'd say engineering degrees are probably the best bang for buck bachelors degrees out there - with the best return and most opportunities without further education.
Ranger1743
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Cost of Education (Biomedical Engineering)

BS: free (academic full ride)
MS/PhD: *Negative* $45,000/year for 5 years (they paid me a stipend through various scholarships and fellowships).

Research Scientist for the DoD (30 yo) making ~$115k with excellent benefits and work-life balance. I could probably make much more in private industry but my job is easy and I live in a cheaper part of the country.
TXTransplant
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Cost of education (BS): $2500/year tuition. Housing was $1500/year, but I didn't live on campus the whole time.

Revived a full scholarship that was worth more than the tuition, so I got a refund check every semester. I think I netted $15-$20k total over 4.5 years, tax-free. School doesn't allow this anymore (don't think the IRS does, either).

Grad School (4 years to PhD): Similar tuition. Received a NSF fellowship for all but the first one or two semesters. Stipend at that time was $27,500 per year and cost of attendance allowance was $10,500 per year. My cost of attendance was less than that, so I was allowed to use the remaining COA funds to buy a computer and travel to conferences.

First job after grad school was $65k/year (assistant prof in higher ed). BS starting salaries with the majors were around $55-$60k per year. So that ratio was 15:1 (per year gif salary and tuition)

This was all from 1996-2004. Almost 20 years post grad school and my salary last year was about 3x what I started at in higher ed (I left higher ed 13 years ago and now work for a privately held mid-sized company).

My son wants to attend the same school I did. Since he's out of state, tuition and housing is $35k/year.In-state would be about $11k less, IIRC. He's received $28k/year in scholarship money so far.

Starting salaries have increased, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't been by the same factor as tuition and fees. Google says it's about $81k, so that's a ratio of 2.3:1 at my alma mater.

The increase in higher ed costs just blows my mind.
Sea Speed
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My degree cost was probably around 70k total? I honestly couldn't tell you. That may have been what my loans totaled and I wasn't the best steward of money back then. I've made 6 figures every year since graduation in 2011. The career isn't for everyone, but it certainly affords a lot of freedoms for those who can handle some life away from home. Look no further than my username to get an idea as to what that may be. One of the best kept 'secrets' at the university.
Brian Earl Spilner
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BS Computer Engineering: $40k of student debt upon graduation.

Salary: $106k
Eliminatus
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This is actually really helpful to me as I am weighing the cost of a masters right now.

Undergrad was free (GI Bill) so would not mind dropping coin on a post grad degree. The problem I face is I am not sure of the value in the masters degree itself. Ben above mentioned a lot of opportunities for engies even without further education and am seeing that that seems to hold true pretty well as an engineer myself. Do I really NEED a post grad degree and eat a school debt for it? Honestly not sure right now.
Stringfellow Hawke
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I will be able to retire from current job in 9 years and looking to maximize earnings and look to develop pertinent job skills to make 6 figures plus from age 53 and beyond.
Captain Winky
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I don't know how much my education cost because my Daddy paid for all of it. I now make eleventy billion dollars a year. Do I win?
BenTheGoodAg
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I think you should get multiple perspectives, but I'm happy to share a little more of mine if it will help.

I started as a design engineer on large construction projects (got my PE in several states). Worked my way up as a lead engineer. I strongly considered an MBA, thinking it might help met get into a management role, but the opportunity came up internally earlier than expected, and I was asked to step up. I worked as a manager over this group of electrical engineers until this office suddenly closed. Great job, very well defined path from new engineer to manager.

In this environment, a technical masters wouldn't be useful for career progression or salary at all. The knowledge *might* be useful, but there are probably better ways to gain the relevant knowledge without the cost and degree plan fluff. An MBA might help in a head-to-head comparison for candidates, but generally not necessary for career progression. Generally, I think if you show your chops as an IC, the opportunity will be there for you as a manager.

I then moved over to a contractor in the quasi-defense space. I started out as a manager in their engineering group, which was enormous - over 1500 people and over 100 managers of various missions. I was responsible for mostly org-wide business functions, ie the internship program, staffing, assigning resources, etc. This organization shuffled, and I was asked to go manage a fabrication group. I was not the right person for this group long term, but made some good changes and kept the trains on time. It took quite a toll on me, and I probably should have thought about an exit strategy sooner. Thankfully, I was then asked to step up to a director role in our research and development organization. I was surprised by this ask, since I don't have a Masters or PhD, but it's been a really good fit and very enjoyable group/mission. I don't think I was asked for my technical ability, but someone felt I was the right person to help get them out of a culture and project execution rut.

In this environment, a technical masters might help you progress a little bit, but probably not enough to offset the cost. The big exception would be the R&D world - very beneficial to have a research background. I ended up in it purely by chance and am an enigma. The MBA again might help in a head-to-head comparison for candidates, but generally not necessary for career progression. And once you're in a management position, I don't think the MBA really provides much of a financial or career return. The path from IC to manager here is totally undefined, and based more on what opportunities come up and how the mission changes. I've not applied for a single position internally, but have seen a lot of movement and opportunities in spite of the lack of further education.

All that said, there is some knowledge you can learn from various Master's programs, but if it's strictly knowledge, and not research, I think there are better, cheaper, and more focused ways to learn that information. I never got my MBA, but I'm always using YouTube to find people who can teach good business and leadership practices.

Hope that further helps, but ask questions if you got'em.
Eliminatus
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BenTheGoodAg said:

I think you should get multiple perspectives, but I'm happy to share a little more of mine if it will help.

I started as a design engineer on large construction projects (got my PE in several states). Worked my way up as a lead engineer. I strongly considered an MBA, thinking it might help met get into a management role, but the opportunity came up internally earlier than expected, and I was asked to step up. I worked as a manager over this group of electrical engineers until this office suddenly closed. Great job, very well defined path from new engineer to manager.

In this environment, a technical masters wouldn't be useful for career progression or salary at all. The knowledge *might* be useful, but there are probably better ways to gain the relevant knowledge without the cost and degree plan fluff. An MBA might help in a head-to-head comparison for candidates, but generally not necessary for career progression. Generally, I think if you show your chops as an IC, the opportunity will be there for you as a manager.

I then moved over to a contractor in the quasi-defense space. I started out as a manager in their engineering group, which was enormous - over 1500 people and over 100 managers of various missions. I was responsible for mostly org-wide business functions, ie the internship program, staffing, assigning resources, etc. This organization shuffled, and I was asked to go manage a fabrication group. I was not the right person for this group long term, but made some good changes and kept the trains on time. It took quite a toll on me, and I probably should have thought about an exit strategy sooner. Thankfully, I was then asked to step up to a director role in our research and development organization. I was surprised by this ask, since I don't have a Masters or PhD, but it's been a really good fit and very enjoyable group/mission. I don't think I was asked for my technical ability, but someone felt I was the right person to help get them out of a culture and project execution rut.

In this environment, a technical masters might help you progress a little bit, but probably not enough to offset the cost. The big exception would be the R&D world - very beneficial to have a research background. I ended up in it purely by chance and am an enigma. The MBA again might help in a head-to-head comparison for candidates, but generally not necessary for career progression. And once you're in a management position, I don't think the MBA really provides much of a financial or career return. The path from IC to manager here is totally undefined, and based more on what opportunities come up and how the mission changes. I've not applied for a single position internally, but have seen a lot of movement and opportunities in spite of the lack of further education.

All that said, there is some knowledge you can learn from various Master's programs, but if it's strictly knowledge, and not research, I think there are better, cheaper, and more focused ways to learn that information. I never got my MBA, but I'm always using YouTube to find people who can teach good business and leadership practices.

Hope that further helps, but ask questions if you got'em.

Appreciate the write up and insight. Definitely helps narrow down future plans. As of right now, I think I am leading more towards the management route instead of a pure SME. Both from my own personal inclination and personal situation and feedback from my company. I believe I am being quasi-groomed already to head that path. Which is where an MBA may be more useful in competitions. I am considering it in general because I have the funds and time to do it now or very near future as a bachelor and have been actively shopping around schools and programs for MBA type of programs. For now I am shying away from more pure STEM related ones due to my probable career path but not outside of possibilities either of course.

Definitely going to go pick the brains of my management team now though for sure. Oddly enough had not considered that till you mentioned it.

Thanks Ben! You are a Good Ag!
12thMan9
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Eliminatus said:

Do I really NEED a post grad degree and eat a school debt for it?
No.
Ronnie '88
OldArmyCT
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Starting pay for a 2LT in the Army, without any add ons (housing, jump pay, etc) is $45k, jumps to $60K for 1LT, $80K for Captain, COLA raises every year. Fly a helicopter and after 6 years you get an extra $600/month, jumps to $1000 after 10 years. A rated LTC at 20 years makes about $140K. Have a specialty degree, i.e. medical, you can add pro pay. Go to A&M on a ROTC scholarship and it's all paid for, tuition, books, room and board and spending $. Sort of puts a different perspective on joining the Corps.
evan_aggie
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I think my tuition, books, fees, was $5000 a year.

Starting jobs in software/hardware at tech companies was $53,000 BS + $10K for a masters waaaayyy back then.

Computer Science and Electrical/Computer are still very much in demand. Masters is highly recommended. Americans compete with the best and brightest from China and India that come to USA for grad school.

Here are a couple of companies in tech.

College graduates are making $110-$125 base and another $15-20 on top of that. You can see ranges from levels.fyi.

Medaggie
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Electrical/computer engineering degree with Biomedical minor - 5 years state total tuition/fees lived at home 20K. Had full ride so zero to me.
Medical school 4 yrs including housing- 80K

Attending starting 500K with 120K school debt (interest) paid off in 1st yr.

Financially well worth it
BenTheGoodAg
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You bet! Good luck!
YouBet
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A&M undergrad in the early '90s was so cheap (relatively speaking) that it was a no brainer to get a degree from there. Almost any degree. No idea what it costs these days but the ROI back then was essentially guaranteed.

Got my MBA in early aughts from SMU. Cost around $75k. Expensive then and i can't even imagine how expensive it is now 20 years later. SMU is one of the priciest schools in the USA.

It was ultimately worth it but i also got mine before MBAs became profit centers offered by every school under the sun. They simply aren't worth it unless you are going to a very highly ranked program. Not sure what SMU is ranked these days. Its professional program was top 15 or so when i did it back then, but again, that was on the cusp of business programs moving more towards part-time vs full-time.
Medaggie
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I agree. Total cost of 9 yrs education cost me 100K including 4 yrs room/board. Today it would be 400K minimum
AgOutsideAustin
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It's over $20K a year on the real cheap now. Tuition is $13K minimum plus you gotta live and eat.
TXTransplant
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TAMU is north of $25k for in-state tuition and housing, according to they info they sent my son. The exact number depends on your major. I think engineering would be around $27k with the additional fees.

Mississippi State is $35k for out of state, and like I posted above, he's got $28k in scholarships.
AgOutsideAustin
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Yes I know I have a student there now but this is Texags so people will always say there's grants, work, live cheaper, or whatever. Bottom line is it's closing in on $100K no matter how cheap you can make it.

Is that worth it ?

Depends on the major now, or if you want your kid to be an Aggie. Too bad it's like that now.
AgOutsideAustin
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Out of state smaller SEC schools just don't have the kids and they love suburban, smart, Texas kids to raise their numbers.
TXTransplant
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Definitely yes. Mine applied to Auburn, too, and they offered him just enough scholarship money to make the tuition about the same as in-state at TAMU.

Some of his scholarship money at MSU is specific to children of alumni.

He wants to do engineering, so that levels the playing field a lot. I have to say though, it's gonna irk me if I have to pay anything. But I guess I can look at it as that's where all the refund checks I got back in the day are going.
AgsMyDude
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Software engineer here as well. Levels is a little tricky because it doesn't care about location.

Sure college grads are making 110-125 base but you're going to an extremely HCOL area likely with state income tax as well.
evan_aggie
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True. But I know what my company is paying for Austin. You can filter by location.

$125-$140 TC In Austin vs $165-170 CA.
htxag09
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AgOutsideAustin said:

Out of state smaller SEC schools just don't have the kids and they love suburban, smart, Texas kids to raise their numbers.

I've posted this before, but it's something I'd absolutely research if I had HS aged kids applying to schools…..

A coworker had two daughters at lsu. They did the same as above, offered scholarships so the total was just under what instate in Texas would have been. Well after the first year for daughter 2 and 3rd year for daughter 1, lsu pulled the scholarships. Said they didn't have the funding anymore, nothing the kids did. Royally pissed him off but his kids already had friends, etc. so wanted to stay.

Now, this is the cluster**** that is lsu, but was shocked they could even do something like that.
evan_aggie
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TXTransplant said:

Definitely yes. Mine applied to Auburn, too, and they offered him just enough scholarship money to make the tuition about the same as in-state at TAMU.

Some of his scholarship money at MSU is specific to children of alumni.

He wants to do engineering, so that levels the playing field a lot. I have to say though, it's gonna irk me if I have to pay anything. But I guess I can look at it as that's where all the refund checks I got back in the day are going.

Not sure of your exact situation, but in my industry, it has become apparent that where you go to school for bachelors, even at a state school, actually matters quite a bit.

I see hiring events and preferential focus to a small subset of universities in computer engineering. This is really difficult to look that far ahead, given 70% of freshman change their majors, so how could they know what they'll end up in?

But if I'm being honest, I definitely would have done my masters degree elsewhere, and potentially my bs depending on financials.

-University of Michigan
-Unversity of Illinois Urbana Champagne
-Georgia Tech
-Purdue
evan_aggie
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OldArmyCT said:

Starting pay for a 2LT in the Army, without any add ons (housing, jump pay, etc) is $45k, jumps to $60K for 1LT, $80K for Captain, COLA raises every year. Fly a helicopter and after 6 years you get an extra $600/month, jumps to $1000 after 10 years. A rated LTC at 20 years makes about $140K. Have a specialty degree, i.e. medical, you can add pro pay. Go to A&M on a ROTC scholarship and it's all paid for, tuition, books, room and board and spending $. Sort of puts a different perspective on joining the Corps.

I think the biggest benefit is that you can go this route, retire @ 20 years, be 45, and start your private career for another 10-15 years while collecting full retirement and some bonus disability %.

I personally haven't met or known anyone in the military who has retired or been discharged w/o some decent % disability provided. My FIL is a retired LTC (or maybe just C...I forget).
TXTransplant
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evan_aggie said:

TXTransplant said:

Definitely yes. Mine applied to Auburn, too, and they offered him just enough scholarship money to make the tuition about the same as in-state at TAMU.

Some of his scholarship money at MSU is specific to children of alumni.

He wants to do engineering, so that levels the playing field a lot. I have to say though, it's gonna irk me if I have to pay anything. But I guess I can look at it as that's where all the refund checks I got back in the day are going.

Not sure of your exact situation, but in my industry, it has become apparent that where you go to school for bachelors, even at a state school, actually matters quite a bit.

I see hiring events and preferential focus to a small subset of universities in computer engineering. This is really difficult to look that far ahead, given 70% of freshman change their majors, so how could they know what they'll end up in?

But if I'm being honest, I definitely would have done my masters degree elsewhere, and potentially my bs depending on financials.

-University of Michigan
-Unversity of Illinois Urbana Champagne
-Georgia Tech
-Purdue



Chemical engineering. Since there are so many jobs for us in the south, with Houston being a ChE's version of Mecca, most of the SEC schools have a strong presence at all of the majors (XOM, CVX, Shell, Dow, etc).

It's more difficult if you want to get into biotech, but after that first job, work experience trumps most everything.

I would not recommend anyone get a Master's in ChemE. Our annual salary survey has shown year over year that it's not valued from a monetary standpoint. Average salaries are pretty much equal for BS and MS professionals.

The PhD is a whole other animal. If you want to go into academics, that's where degree pedigree matters. But even I was able to get an assistant prof job. Unless you want to do research and/or pursue an academic career, there is no need to pursue a PhD, though. There are many days when I think I should have just gone to law school, based on what I do now.

Industry would be more difficult to break into right after finishing the PhD, as the few companies who even recruit PhD chemical engineers do so at very specific schools. But I'm in industry now, and degree and work experience got me here (not the school name on the diploma).

Your point about recruiting is a great one, though. Back when I was in academics, I used to tell potential students and their parents to specifically ask what companies recent graduates went to work for.

I worked at a small university in a heavily DOD-dependent area. VERY few students went to work in the chemical industry, and most would up working for the government or a government contractor. Needless to say, it's not a school I would recommend for chemical engineering.
Win At Life
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When I started in 1984, in-state tuition was $16/credit hour. Yeah, that's basically free. The fees and books were more than tuition. I lived in a dorm without air conditioning and a 5-day meal plan. Weekends to the Cowhop fir a $1.50 cowpie and fries was a treat from top Raman. I didn't bring my car because i didn't want to pay for parking. My brother dropped me off at Hart Hall with about 3 trash bags of all my belongings and drove away. I did room, board and tuition for the entire freshman year for $4000. Average Starting salary for Engineering was $32,000 and I was Average, but that was still a no-brainer payback.
AgsMyDude
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Interesting. What company? Hiring for the Principal level?
evan_aggie
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One thing I saw across a couple of companies is the motivation titles can illicit from employees. In fact, people are more clouded by the title than they are the overall package.

There is something rewarding to be considered a Principle, Sr Principle, Fellow etc, but I think they sort of do that to help boost perception even if they are lagging top-pay.
AgsMyDude
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Yeah I won't disagree there but I was being semi serious asking if y'all are hiring. Particularly if that's the starting pay for college grads.
Average Joe
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Information Security Engineer. Six figure income.

School wasn't necessary, to be honest, but I wanted the ring as a personal goal so I'll say $45k. The real education was a $30 book and $699 certification (CISSP). No one cares about degrees in my field until you decide to go into management.
bmks270
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Got my masters in mechanical engineering. It was well worth it since I had a full scholarship as a graduate research assistant, so cost me nothing. I had about 20k in undergraduate debt and parents and scholarships covered the rest.

I'd say in engineering a graduate degree is worth it these days for the more advanced jobs, at least in mechanical engineering. If you've got the chops for it, I highly recommend it.

On my current team, 10 out of 11 have a graduate degree, and the one who doesn't has 15 years work experience.

Most of the really competitive jobs hire engineers with a masters degree and show preference for it.
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