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LLC - Vacation Property

6,230 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by dc509
Leander - Ag
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We are about to buy a second home for vaca rental. Our accountant told me to put it in an LLC so that we wouldn't be personally liable for any damages or issues with tenants.

Any advice from those that have experience? Also, what are first steps to set-up an LLC?

Thanks!
Aggiemundo
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Had a similar issue when we bought a home for VRBO short term rentals two years ago. The issue we had is that our newly formed LLC didn't have any credit history so we couldn't get a reasonable mortgage rate under it. If you're paying cash should be possible, but if there is a mortgage it likely will have to stay under your name.

I'd love to be wrong about this so if someone here can correct me please do!
Leander - Ag
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Thanks for the help. Did you have to be thru a lawyer to establish the LLC?

On the fence on whether to finance or pay cash. Good to know that the LLC benefit is a plus for cash.

I hate paying cash but 8% rates are killer!
schwack schwack
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Does an LLC really protect you? Wouldn't it come back to you anyway if the LLC is yours?

Really curious about this.
Leander - Ag
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schwack schwack said:

Does an LLC really protect you? Wouldn't it come back to you anyway if the LLC is yours?

Really curious about this.


They can't come after your personal assets
Jay@AgsReward.com
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You cannot vest conventional financing (in other words, the best priced loans) directly into a LLC. You can however close in your personal name and then transfer title into your LLC without worry about your note being called. Here is the direct info from Fannie (LLC info is about halfway down the page):

Fannie Mae allowed transfer

That being said you still have to be diligent about your record keeping and the rules or your corporate veil can be pierced. You might ask your attorney if personal use would effect that as I do not know. A lot of the LLC's I see set up to hold real estate have comingled funds with no real separation of business vs personal funds etc. I have a hard time believing that the LLC shield would be very effective if tested in court. If you are fastidious about the details it can help on liability but I would still make sure you had your max liability insurance and umbrella policy.
idAg09
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Leander - Ag said:

schwack schwack said:

Does an LLC really protect you? Wouldn't it come back to you anyway if the LLC is yours?

Really curious about this.


They can't come after your personal assets
Over the years at various seminars in construction I've heard people (lawyers) say this is a common misconception. The phrase 'Piercing the Corporate Veil' is thrown around a lot. Anyone else more familiar with the legal process know if this is true or just lawyer speak so you feel you need them???
Leander - Ag
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idAg09 said:

Leander - Ag said:

schwack schwack said:

Does an LLC really protect you? Wouldn't it come back to you anyway if the LLC is yours?

Really curious about this.



They can't come after your personal assets
Over the years at various seminars in construction I've heard people (lawyers) say this is a common misconception. The phrase 'Piercing the Corporate Veil' is thrown around a lot. Anyone else more familiar with the legal process know if this is true or just lawyer speak so you feel you need them???


All I know is that Real estate lawyers I know have their vaca rentals in an LLC
MAS444
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Generally...you just have to keep everything separate. Seperate accounts, credit card, etc...and not commingle personal and LLC funds. Always lease and sign everything on behalf of LLC only. An argument can always be made to pierce the veil - but if you;re diligent on keeping everything separate, should be okay.

Not legal advice.
rme
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It's easy to establish an LLC. Go to Secretary of State's website or use a service like Incfile.
Leander - Ag
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rme said:

It's easy to establish an LLC. Go to Secretary of State's website or use a service like Incfile.


Thanks
Agilaw
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Yes, LLCs provide protection when set up and maintained properly. It is common for people to mention how easy it is to "pierce" the corporate veil." Reality, it doesn't happy very often at all. Always good to include insurance in an asset protection plan.
Aglaw97
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As stated above, setting up a LLC is easy through the Texas SOS website. Pretty easy instructions to follow. You can then obtain a FEIN and bank account in LLC name once entity is formed.

Piercing is hard to do as long as you don't comingle assets and have some level of insurance to protect anyone harmed by the LLC. Don't need a bunch. Biggest key is to keep separate bank anccounts and some formalities between the LLC and your personal finances.
BenFiasco14
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Leander - Ag said:

We are about to buy a second home for vaca rental. Our accountant told me to put it in an LLC so that we wouldn't be personally liable for any damages or issues with tenants.

Any advice from those that have experience? Also, what are first steps to set-up an LLC?

Thanks!


If you have the money to purchase a vacation rental, you have the money to consult an attorney that does corporate and real estate work to help you set up the LLC and transfer title from yourself to the LLC once you've closed on your loan.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
rme
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I had lawyer do my first LLC in 2015 and that was $1,400.

I used Legal Zoom for my second and that was $700.

I've done the rest myself at Texas Secretary of State site for $300.

Lawyer cost and legal zoom include SOS cost. Incfile and others (maybe legal zoom) have options around $400-$500 so great options for first time.

Live and learn.
agdx88
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I've been told that an LLC is good, but a single member LLC or a husband and wife is not real strong in the protection as its easier to tie the individual to the LLC. Recommendation was to have outside entity involved as well for better protection. But that isn't always reasonable or practical.
Leander - Ag
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rme said:

I had lawyer do my first LLC in 2015 and that was $1,400.

I used Legal Zoom for my second and that was $700.

I've done the rest myself at Texas Secretary of State site for $300.

Lawyer cost and legal zoom include SOS cost. Incfile and others (maybe legal zoom) have options around $400-$500 so great options for first time.

Live and learn.


Thanks. This is why I asked. Very helpful- appreciate it.

The reason I have money is I don't piss it away.
BenFiasco14
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rme said:

I had lawyer do my first LLC in 2015 and that was $1,400.

I used Legal Zoom for my second and that was $700.

I've done the rest myself at Texas Secretary of State site for $300.

Lawyer cost and legal zoom include SOS cost. Incfile and others (maybe legal zoom) have options around $400-$500 so great options for first time.

Live and learn.


You'll probably have a very expensive live and learn if something goes wrong. Look, I know attorneys are scum of the earth. But if you broke your leg would you snap it into place yourself and move on?
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
rme
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Apples and oranges. There's a simple path to set up an LLC and create required organizational documents.
High Functioning Moron
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Can you list your primary residence as the principal place of business? Or the address of the vacation rental?
BenFiasco14
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Very well then, I bid you good day.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
cjsag94
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I have commercial property that I put in an LLC, but I really just did so because it seemed the thing to do. My wife and I are the only members. And we do keep everything separate.

I'm curious what liability are you protecting your personal assets from via business structure. If you as an individual act negligently, pretty sure you as an individual can be sued or prosecuted. I'd think an umbrella liability policy is far more valuable than an LLC to protect your assets. The LLC, I'd think, would only matter if something on the LLC itself caused harm.

Genuinely curious what an LLC/Corporate veil actually protects in this scenario? Balcony collapses and injures/kills someone type thing? Then I would assume they still sue you, but the idea they can only get what the LLC owns?
Lawhall97
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I started down the LLC real estate path early last year...Like the posts above say, the LLC part is easy. Register with the state of Texas, apply for an EIN from federal government and open a separate bank account using the LLC name and EIN. Make owner investments into the LLC bank account over a two month period of time. For the property loan to be in the LLC name, you need a private lender. I used Visio lending for my first property, which I found through a very good broker that knows the private market. You will pay a higher interest rate on the loans, but that is a tax write off. You can figure this out all on your own, but I prefer to work with experts, because I have a day job. I work with the broker to find the funding & insurance company & I found a very good real estate agent that is also my property management company. I'm closing on my second property this month. If you want to get into the rental business, make sure you look at it as an investment from: property appraising over time, rental income, tax write offs, equity that builds. Also on the cost side, make sure you account for maintenance, taxes & vacancies. I had land I bought prior to the LLC, but then sold it to my LLC to transfer the cost of owning and show additional assets in the LLC. My wonderful Aggie wife started a interior design company as a side hustle and I've since folded that into the LLC. My plan is to get the first couple of properties under my belt then open it up for other people to come on board as partners & investors.
TexAg2k8
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Jay@AgsReward.com said:

You cannot vest conventional financing (in other words, the best priced loans) directly into a LLC. You can however close in your personal name and then transfer title into your LLC without worry about your note being called.


Will the lenders not just accept a guaranty from the creditworthy member of the LLC? I'd rather close with the LLC as buyer/borrower to avoid triggering additional transfer taxes/assessments (depending on where the property is located) on the subsequent conveyance to the LLC. You also have to make sure you don't lose coverage under your title insurance policy when you make that transfer.
Jay@AgsReward.com
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You cannot close a conventional loan in a LLC. No exceptions to that. There are non-conventional programs that will allow you to close in a LLC. But, the rates/terms are not as good a conventional loan, but it can be done.
TexAg2k8
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Interesting. That's such a departure from the commercial world.
Jay@AgsReward.com
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Conventional loans are largely not for commercial purposes. They are for owner occupiers. There is a some discussion if Fannie/Freddie should be in the non-owner occupied business at all. Conventional loan favorable rates/terms are only what they are because of the implied government backstop for mortgage backed securities, and that is why they trade with a very small spread over risk free treasury bills/bonds. So, I am ok with that subsidy not being used for out right commercial purposes.
SteveBott
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Or as said just get an umbrella policy, which offers protection from other types of liability, and call it good.

PS my lawyer/CPA/Title person would advise for an umbrella.
TexAg2k8
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Yeah I hear you, I just don't understand the hesitancy to lend to an LLC. They still get a deed of trust on the property and having the individual they want as a borrower sign a guaranty can be just as good as them signing as borrower. That structure works with agency debt in the multi family industry so you'd thing they'd make it work for single family conventional loans.
SteveBott
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Why? Why should they do anything when they don't have a need to do so.
TexAg2k8
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Why do they allow someone to deed the property to an LLC after closing without triggering the due on sale clause but not allow someone to just close into the LLC? That makes no sense and just opens the individual up to risks as I mentioned above. What is solved by requiring someone to own it for a day in their own name before transferring it to an LLC?
SteveBott
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You keep looking at what helps you. What helps the GMAs is what they are concerned about. And moving to an LLC is relatively new. Used to be it automatically opened the loan to immediate call due…if the lender wants to. They never did but still this is progress.

As for why they do this I don't know. But they have unlimited data on risks so I'd guess that has something to do with it.
TexAg2k8
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I don't see a difference in risk for the lender in doing it in two steps as they're allowing now or in one as I suggested. I would actually think they'd prefer their borrower to directly hold title to their collateral, which is what would happen if the LLC was the borrower.
SteveBott
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Just because you don't see it doesn't make your statement true either. FHFA has billions of data points and decades of risk management. It may well be they are just slow and indifferent but also they see higher risks.
TexAg2k8
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What exactly is your point? You keep responding to tell me that they know better than me but offer nothing of substance to refute my argument.
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