As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

You got a great deal! In 1987, I had to pay more than that for a 3B new construction in Le
wisville.

Eh, my first mortgage was 14%. Cry me a river.

14% on 80K lol

Win At Life said:

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As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

---

bought first house in 2005; future wife and me, combined salary maybe $90k I think (I was $52k, wife was teacher I think mid 40s), approved for like $275k, we bought at $120, or 1.3x salary, or 2x my own salary.

That's the difference right there. It's a first home.. didn't have to spend what the bank told you you could afford.
Ours was a 3/2, 1600sf.

62strat said:

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Win At Life said:

---

As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

---

bought first house in 2005; future wife and me, combined salary maybe $90k I think (I was $52k, wife was teacher I think mid 40s), approved for like $275k, we bought at $120, or 1.3x salary, or 2x my own salary.

That's the difference right there. It's a first home.. didn't have to spend what the bank told you you could afford.
Ours was a 3/2, 1600sf.

---

Someone told me for your first house to buy as much house as you can afford. Reason being, your salary will go up quickly and your family will grow (assuming you're planning that). I was getting married and we had two children in 6 years. If I had bought a small 3B, I probably would have felt cramped by then and thinking about moving (I know the wife would have been biatching about that). It was nice not feeling like I had to move, and when interest rates dropped a few years later,I refinanced to a 15 year for the same payment as the 30-year. It's not a life-plan that works for everybody, but it suited me well.

BTW, my son is actually looking at 3Bed, 2Bath under 2000SF, but the numbers aren't much better and I wanted the example to be a more equal comparison.

Admittedly, Houston back in the 80's and 90's was the best sweet spot in the country for high paying jobs combined with low cost of housing. You couldn't make dramatically more back then in many other big cities, but the cost of housing would be double. Or, you could buy a similar cheap house in BFE Mississippi, but good luck getting a high paying job over there back then.

The biggest change now is the dramatic increase in housing costs in Houston. It used to be noticeably cheaper here than the rest of the country (including Dallas), but not any more; especially in the last 5 years or so.

Win At Life said:

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As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

---

starting $65k in 2023? That was low in 2008.

Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

CS78 said:

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Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

---

Yes millennials certainly have a choice whether they need to own a car or a cell phone, and it's certainly their fault inflation is rampant and rents are all time highs.

If they stop paying $5 for a Starbucks they'd all could afford houses!

Win At Life said:

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62strat said:

---

Win At Life said:

---

As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

---

bought first house in 2005; future wife and me, combined salary maybe $90k I think (I was $52k, wife was teacher I think mid 40s), approved for like $275k, we bought at $120, or 1.3x salary, or 2x my own salary.

That's the difference right there. It's a first home.. didn't have to spend what the bank told you you could afford.
Ours was a 3/2, 1600sf.

---

Reason being, your salary will go up quickly

---

This right here is why we have a consumer debt problem in this country (I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong, just a general comment on that statement). Too many people borrow money, be it home loans, cars, credit cards,etc. with the idea they can stretch themselves because that next raise or higher paying job is right around the corner. Then, as so often happens in life, things don't quite go according to plan.

Why Millennials Don't Own Homes? As a matter of fact, half of Millennials do own homes. And in the paid promotional OP, I don't see any direct answer to the question.

Win At Life said:

---

As a graduate engineer in 1989, I made the average starting salary of $30,000 and bought a new 4B 2200SF house for $90,000; or 3x my salary.

Today, my graduate engineering son is making the average starting salary of $65,000 and is looking at new 4B 2100SF houses costing $350,000; or 5.4x his salary.

That's the difference right there.

---

Wisdom is sometimes the ability to simplify the complex. That's as good as it gets right there.

TxAG#2011 said:

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CS78 said:

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Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

---

Yes millennials certainly have a choice whether they need to own a car or a cell phone, and it's certainly their fault inflation is rampant and rents are all time highs.

If they stop paying $5 for a Starbucks they'd all could afford houses!

---

Condescending denial aside, you'd be shocked how quickly it all adds up. Or goes away. I used to be incredibly frugal, but recently started wasting more money on eating out and $6 coffee and such, and it disappears fast! And I'm technically a millennial who never hid behind excuses, but also lived well within my means in my younger years, sacrificing buying **** I didn't need (or know I was supposed to want) so that I can buy anything I want now and not feel it, including a very nice house, multiple cars, nice trips, etc. So no, adding a few hundred (or more) a month that could go into savings for a house or retirement is significant over time, especially when it's so easy to cut down on wasteful spending when you should be living more modestly. Especially when you start adding in larger items, like upgraded phones every year, or even trading up to unnecessarily fancy and nice cars every few years, and yes, that's a pretty significant chunk of change you don't have for a downpayment on a house, which is the only item listed that's actually a smart purchase. Hundreds, if not thousands, thrown away each month on frivolous **** is a very very real issue and reason for not having money in the current generations. And it was happening long before the brutal inflation of the last few years. I've come across so many millennials living paycheck to paycheck while bringing in over 100k, renting $2k ROOMS in apartments (or $4-5k for an entire flat), going out to eat every meal, and not saving a dime, all while throwing out excuses why they're struggling, blaming everything and everyone but themselves and their own behavior. And they cry victim as if they have no control over their financial struggles. But if hiding behind excuses that you can't control so that you don't have to stop those that you can control makes you feel better about wastefulness, then by all means, keep on keeping on. Yolo, right?

Pluralizes Everythings said:

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WoMD said:

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TxAG#2011 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

---

Yes millennials certainly have a choice whether they need to own a car or a cell phone, and it's certainly their fault inflation is rampant and rents are all time highs.

If they stop paying $5 for a Starbucks they'd all could afford houses!

---

Condescending denial aside, you'd be shocked how quickly it all adds up. Or goes away. I used to be incredibly frugal, but recently started wasting more money on eating out and $6 coffee and such, and it disappears fast! And I'm technically a millennial who never hid behind excuses, but also lived well within my means in my younger years, sacrificing buying **** I didn't need (or know I was supposed to want) so that I can buy anything I want now and not feel it, including a very nice house, multiple cars, nice trips, etc. So no, adding a few hundred (or more) a month that could go into savings for a house or retirement is significant over time, especially when it's so easy to cut down on wasteful spending when you should be living more modestly. Especially when you start adding in larger items, like upgraded phones every year, or even trading up to unnecessarily fancy and nice cars every few years, and yes, that's a pretty significant chunk of change you don't have for a downpayment on a house, which is the only item listed that's actually a smart purchase. Hundreds, if not thousands, thrown away each month on frivolous **** is a very very real issue and reason for not having money in the current generations. And it was happening long before the brutal inflation of the last few years. I've come across so many millennials living paycheck to paycheck while bringing in over 100k, renting $2k ROOMS in apartments (or $4-5k for an entire flat), going out to eat every meal, and not saving a dime, all while throwing out excuses why they're struggling, blaming everything and everyone but themselves and their own behavior. And they cry victim as if they have no control over their financial struggles. But if hiding behind excuses that you can't control so that you don't have to stop those that you can control makes you feel better about wastefulness, then by all means, keep on keeping on. Yolo, right?

---

Good stuff.

You need to understand that not everyone lives in your market, and comparing your situation to others is a mistake.

I borrowed 20k from my dad at a low 1% interest rate, so my wife could finish her degree - ill have it paid off in full at the end of this year. I graduated from tamu in cstat a few years ago, moved states while she finished off her last year, and established myself in the new location. I brought her into the job I do, we just had our first child, and I moved feom one side of the state to the other, crossing the continental divide on Christmas day to establish myself in a new market area for a company that bought us out. The entire process was mind numbing, and that is by no means an exhaustive list of challenges we have faced.

We will be purchasing a home soon, but I went from working myself to death in 100+ degree heat regularly to...working myself to death in -2F at 10k'. There are super easy days where the money comes in spades, and days where I look around and wonder wtf am I doing, and does God even want me here.

To say that my faith in God has been pushed to its limit is no understatement, but it was never pushed past that limit.

If I failed at any point, financial disaster would have ensued, and IT DOES HAPPEN for many, many people.

The perspective you lack now will come with age/time.

ETA: I also deal.with foreclosures at a rate of ~3/month...I've seen what the current market, coupled with unfortunate circumstances can do to people, and I know that things are ****ed right now.

---

You're right, my perspective is skewed, but not in the direction you think. I've lived in some of the most overinflated markets in the country, potentially the two most overpriced markets based on cost of living. But never once did I doubt the inevitable results. And I certainly never blamed anything for having to sacrifice all the goodies I could've bought along the way (it helped that the first 3 years out of school I lived in a small town with no Starbucks, or even coffee shops, and only a couple restaurants, so I guess there wasn't the temptation to spend like a fool). One was difficult (sf), but attainable with sacrifice and discipline, and the other was easy by comparison (Boise, surprising enough, now rated most overpriced market in the country). Better to have given up and not tried, right? I'm a stupid millennial (82), but the option of giving up or not working my ass off and instead spending like a moron and blaming everyone but myself for all hardships instead never crossed my mind. Failure also wasn't an option, at least as the end point. Just an opportunity to learn and do better next time. Life is difficult, but it's a piece of cake compared to any other period and any other country in the history of world. Perspective is key.

More results, fewer excuses. Even if failure is part of things, blaming everything under the Sun will get no one anywhere. Except for bitterness and misery.


I apologize for the snarkiness. Just so tired of the blame and victim culture that's permeated the country now, especially those under 40 (not always, I had an employee 10-15 years older than me who constantly wanted advances, had considerable debt, but always was showing off her latest Apple device, and it drove me insane to see a smart person be so reckless; she will never retire, not because she didn't get paid enough, but because money left faster than it went in to buy junk she didn't need; although to be fair, she never actually complained or made excuses, she was quite ok with living paycheck to paycheck and living the way she did and never actually blamed anyone, so it was a whole other mindset that I couldn't understand and doesn't actually apply in this example now that I think about it). It's only excuses and victimhood and it gets really old. Especially when there is no introspection to change personal behavior and circumstance where it can be adjusted, but instead giving up and making excuses for how hard you have it. But life is hard. Is this the first generation in history that tells themselves (and eachother) that constantly? That it's too hard? And it's not fair? So of course they won't succeed. Right? It's a built in excuse constantly being reinforced by peers and politicians.

Just such an oddity. Yes, life is hard. So why coddle? Suck it up, get in the game, and kick ass. It's not easy, but it's there for the taking. Just gotta make it happen. And sometimes that takes sacrifice. But it never takes excuses, or blame.

WoMD said:

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Pluralizes Everythings said:

---

WoMD said:

---

TxAG#2011 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

---

Yes millennials certainly have a choice whether they need to own a car or a cell phone, and it's certainly their fault inflation is rampant and rents are all time highs.

If they stop paying $5 for a Starbucks they'd all could afford houses!

---

Condescending denial aside, you'd be shocked how quickly it all adds up. Or goes away. I used to be incredibly frugal, but recently started wasting more money on eating out and $6 coffee and such, and it disappears fast! And I'm technically a millennial who never hid behind excuses, but also lived well within my means in my younger years, sacrificing buying **** I didn't need (or know I was supposed to want) so that I can buy anything I want now and not feel it, including a very nice house, multiple cars, nice trips, etc. So no, adding a few hundred (or more) a month that could go into savings for a house or retirement is significant over time, especially when it's so easy to cut down on wasteful spending when you should be living more modestly. Especially when you start adding in larger items, like upgraded phones every year, or even trading up to unnecessarily fancy and nice cars every few years, and yes, that's a pretty significant chunk of change you don't have for a downpayment on a house, which is the only item listed that's actually a smart purchase. Hundreds, if not thousands, thrown away each month on frivolous **** is a very very real issue and reason for not having money in the current generations. And it was happening long before the brutal inflation of the last few years. I've come across so many millennials living paycheck to paycheck while bringing in over 100k, renting $2k ROOMS in apartments (or $4-5k for an entire flat), going out to eat every meal, and not saving a dime, all while throwing out excuses why they're struggling, blaming everything and everyone but themselves and their own behavior. And they cry victim as if they have no control over their financial struggles. But if hiding behind excuses that you can't control so that you don't have to stop those that you can control makes you feel better about wastefulness, then by all means, keep on keeping on. Yolo, right?

---

Good stuff.

You need to understand that not everyone lives in your market, and comparing your situation to others is a mistake.

I borrowed 20k from my dad at a low 1% interest rate, so my wife could finish her degree - ill have it paid off in full at the end of this year. I graduated from tamu in cstat a few years ago, moved states while she finished off her last year, and established myself in the new location. I brought her into the job I do, we just had our first child, and I moved feom one side of the state to the other, crossing the continental divide on Christmas day to establish myself in a new market area for a company that bought us out. The entire process was mind numbing, and that is by no means an exhaustive list of challenges we have faced.

We will be purchasing a home soon, but I went from working myself to death in 100+ degree heat regularly to...working myself to death in -2F at 10k'. There are super easy days where the money comes in spades, and days where I look around and wonder wtf am I doing, and does God even want me here.

To say that my faith in God has been pushed to its limit is no understatement, but it was never pushed past that limit.

If I failed at any point, financial disaster would have ensued, and IT DOES HAPPEN for many, many people.

The perspective you lack now will come with age/time.

ETA: I also deal.with foreclosures at a rate of ~3/month...I've seen what the current market, coupled with unfortunate circumstances can do to people, and I know that things are ****ed right now.

---

You're right, my perspective is skewed, but not in the direction you think. I've lived in some of the most overinflated markets in the country, potentially the two most overpriced markets based on cost of living. But never once did I doubt the inevitable results. And I certainly never blamed anything for having to sacrifice all the goodies I could've bought along the way (it helped that the first 3 years out of school I lived in a small town with no Starbucks, or even coffee shops, and only a couple restaurants, so I guess there wasn't the temptation to spend like a fool). One was difficult (sf), but attainable with sacrifice and discipline, and the other was easy by comparison (Boise, surprising enough, now rated most overpriced market in the country). Better to have given up and not tried, right? I'm a stupid millennial (82), but the option of giving up or not working my ass off and instead spending like a moron and blaming everyone but myself for all hardships instead never crossed my mind. Failure also wasn't an option, at least as the end point. Just an opportunity to learn and do better next time. Life is difficult, but it's a piece of cake compared to any other period and any other country in the history of world. Perspective is key.

More results, fewer excuses. Even if failure is part of things, blaming everything under the Sun will get no one anywhere. Except for bitterness and misery.


I apologize for the snarkiness. Just so tired of the blame and victim culture that's permeated the country now, especially those under 40 (not always, I had an employee 10-15 years older than me who constantly wanted advances, had considerable debt, but always was showing off her latest Apple device, and it drove me insane to see a smart person be so reckless; she will never retire, not because she didn't get paid enough, but because money left faster than it went in to buy junk she didn't need; although to be fair, she never actually complained or made excuses, she was quite ok with living paycheck to paycheck and living the way she did and never actually blamed anyone, so it was a whole other mindset that I couldn't understand and doesn't actually apply in this example now that I think about it). It's only excuses and victimhood and it gets really old. Especially when there is no introspection to change personal behavior and circumstance where it can be adjusted, but instead giving up and making excuses for how hard you have it. But life is hard. Is this the first generation in history that tells themselves (and eachother) that constantly? That it's too hard? And it's not fair? So of course they won't succeed. Right? It's a built in excuse constantly being reinforced by peers and politicians.

Just such an oddity. Yes, life is hard. So why coddle? Suck it up, get in the game, and kick ass. It's not easy, but it's there for the taking. Just gotta make it happen. And sometimes that takes sacrifice. But it never takes excuses, or blame.

---

Tldr

V

WoMD said:

---

TxAG#2011 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

Couldn't have anything to do with all the crap people waste money on these days. Monthly subscriptions, $20 lunches every day, high dollar phones, car notes, etc.

Choices!

---

Yes millennials certainly have a choice whether they need to own a car or a cell phone, and it's certainly their fault inflation is rampant and rents are all time highs.

If they stop paying $5 for a Starbucks they'd all could afford houses!

---

Condescending denial aside, you'd be shocked how quickly it all adds up. Or goes away. I used to be incredibly frugal, but recently started wasting more money on eating out and $6 coffee and such, and it disappears fast! And I'm technically a millennial who never hid behind excuses, but also lived well within my means in my younger years, sacrificing buying **** I didn't need (or know I was supposed to want) so that I can buy anything I want now and not feel it, including a very nice house, multiple cars, nice trips, etc. So no, adding a few hundred (or more) a month that could go into savings for a house or retirement is significant over time, especially when it's so easy to cut down on wasteful spending when you should be living more modestly. Especially when you start adding in larger items, like upgraded phones every year, or even trading up to unnecessarily fancy and nice cars every few years, and yes, that's a pretty significant chunk of change you don't have for a downpayment on a house, which is the only item listed that's actually a smart purchase. Hundreds, if not thousands, thrown away each month on frivolous **** is a very very real issue and reason for not having money in the current generations. And it was happening long before the brutal inflation of the last few years. I've come across so many millennials living paycheck to paycheck while bringing in over 100k, renting $2k ROOMS in apartments (or $4-5k for an entire flat), going out to eat every meal, and not saving a dime, all while throwing out excuses why they're struggling, blaming everything and everyone but themselves and their own behavior. And they cry victim as if they have no control over their financial struggles. But if hiding behind excuses that you can't control so that you don't have to stop those that you can control makes you feel better about wastefulness, then by all means, keep on keeping on. Yolo, right?

---

$2k per month is getting you an old, outdated apartment right now where I live. Since you graduated college, tuition is easily 3x more, maybe 4. That 400k house 10 years ago is now 800k. Eating out is nearly the same cost as eating in.

People are getting crushed and the problem goes far beyond, "well **** maybe they should save more." It's likely you are in a highly insulated circle full of college graduates that make good money. The majority of the population is not. The significant majority of people are not upgrading their phones every year or going out to eat every meal, or renting $5k flats (lol).

Even if you do the basic math - saving $1k a month isn't getting you ***** What's even the point of saving that if that house went up $100k in a year? And just an aside, you benefited tremendously graduating in 06 which was before housing went bonkers.

TxAG#2011 said:

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$2k per month is getting you an old, outdated apartment right now where I live. Since you graduated college, tuition is easily 3x more, maybe 4. That 400k house 10 years ago is now 800k. Eating out is nearly the same cost as eating in.

People are getting crushed and the problem goes far beyond, "well **** maybe they should save more." It's likely you are in a highly insulated circle full of college graduates that make good money. The majority of the population is not. The significant majority of people are not upgrading their phones every year or going out to eat every meal, or renting $5k flats (lol).

Even if you do the basic math - saving $1k a month isn't getting you ***** What's even the point of saving that if that house went up $100k in a year? And just an aside, you benefited tremendously graduating in 06 which was before housing went bonkers.

---

Look, if we give in to the thought that times have changed and the new generations today are helpless not due to there fault but the economy and inflation that they have inherited, then there is no hope for them, is there!!!

I say BS! Yes the obstacles are there but for those who WANT to overcome, they CAN and they can do it quite EASY. JUST a mind set my friends!!!

Case in point to just show the softness of your younger generations: My first duplex I bought in 2003 in Bryan 3 beds two baths each side. My son lived in the so called master and his two roommates were paying me $300 a month. 3 girls lived next door paying a total of $900. I had a small metal shed in the back and I bough them a lawn mower to cut the VERY SMALL YARD as the front yard was concrete to park the cars. I began getting warnings from the city for not cutting the grass. I told my son to get with the program and divide up the task, including the girls. After one more warning from the city, I gave them all a choice, either each pay an additional $25 per month per student or start mowing the yard. They unanimously chose to be charged $25 more per month, per student, for each month of the year regardless of the grass needing mowed in DEC, Jan, Feb ect. I was flabbergasted at their decision but it taught me a lot. I gladly contracted a lawn service to charge me $40 per mow of the Entire duplex and was happy to make the higher rent!!!!

Moral of this story is that the younger generations are far more into convenance than they are for sacrificing or delaying gratification for a better future.

Now, before you chime in and say anything starting with a BUT, i will tell you just how they can get ahead!!!!!

I am mentoring a kid in Bryan right now!!!! He is 20 years old. Went to Blinn for ONE SEMESTER and decided school was not for him. However, he has a work ethic that is beyond GREAT. He was renting out a room to survive on his $4000 monthly job. He just bough his first duplex in Bryan with owner financing!!!!!! 5% down on a 220k purchased and he is renting out what was the empty unit for $1125 and the other unit is bringing about $900 is in a lease through Jan 2024 where he will raise the rent to $1125 as well. He barely cash flows positive but did I tell you he is 20years OLD he knows how to suck it up and survive!! He is motivated and will own another duplex within 3-5 years. He has gained tremendous confidence with this first purchase. Could he have done this in Austin, probably not. Can you win a National Championship running the WISH BONE, probably not. If you want to win you have to adapt. Any young person or young couple struggling to get buy ought to forego the new car, don't buy the house, but do buy the duplex. It's not sexy, it is not even nice in a lot of cases but it will help you build wealth and the duplex living is not PERMANENT.

This is just one way. Yes times have changed and you have to change with the times. It is easy to do what the crowd is going to do but the crowd today is pay check to pay check with NO FUTURE in sight doing it the old way!!! Only the tough minded will thrive!!!!! Cheers!

Every time I read a scrap post

As a millennial, I take offense to this. The generation you are looking for is GenZ. The majority of millennials are in their 30s and 40s, and a ton of us own homes, despite genX trying their best to collapse the housing and banking industries simultaneously in 08.

Martin Cash said:

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Eh, my first mortgage was 14%. Cry me a river.

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Pretty ignorant stance

Quote:

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If you want to win you have to adapt. Any young person or young couple struggling to get buy ought to forego the new car, don't buy the house, but do buy the duplex. It's not sexy, it is not even nice in a lot of cases but it will help you build wealth and the duplex living is not PERMANENT.

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That's kinda the point though. Gen Z and younger millennials have gotten hammered between inflation and a growing wealth gap. They're being asked to 'adapt' to financially harder circumstances than previous generations, especially when it comes to home owning. If you live/work near a densely populated urban area, housing prices have far outstripped real wages.

You can 'bootstrap' anecdote your way to any solution, but we're talking about an aggregate of people who just want to 'live the American dream' their parents and grandparents did.

Edit: I don't have sympathy for people who make poor life choices, but when I look around and see a middle class that is shrinking every year, and the only people who are seemingly able to participate in this financial market are 2 income households...it's undeniable things have gotten harder. Gone are the days where a single blue collar income can support a family of 4 with a stay at home parent to raise the kids in a good neighborhood. I did everything right (graduated in 4 years with a business degree, got a good job and paid off all my debt, STILL driving my old truck that is going on 14 years and even I would struggle if I didn't have a wife who also made good decisions and has a high income).