ddp

[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 9/25/2013 2:10p).]

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PE in 1977 =/= Engineering today

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Delusional much?

Nope.

I assume you also forced the same mandatory attendance at baseball and basketball games, right? Wait... The corps being the Keepers of Tradition is only football...

I'd be interested to see the list of classes required for a 1977 engineering degree. I may be delusional, but with the advances over the last three and a half decades I'll bet that your buddy didn't even cover 3rd year classwork compared to today's students. It takes 129 credit hours to get today's PE degree. Please show me the comparative curriculum from three and a half decades ago.

Senile much?

cadets of 1977-87 > cadets of today

As a working PE for 26 years, I can assure you that most EIT's coming out of school, no matter what school, are pretty dangerous animals. I have dealt with dozens of them up close and personal over the years. Lots of training still ahead of them before they can be let loose on the public.

Engineering grads back ~40 years ago were just getting used to having a pocket calculator. Walking away from a slide rule and book of logrhytmns was not too hard to endure but the biggest thing useful from that drudgery was the lifelong appreciation of significant figures. Something recent grads almost universally lack. No PC's then, either. No CAD. You had to letter stuff with a Leroy set. And you had to print good with a pencil. Another woeful skill lacking in recent graduates. A lucky guy already knew how to type on a typewriter. Most didn't. No 'keyboarding' back then. Plus most engineering track cadets normally took 18 hours a semester. Plus Bull Text cause most guys took contracts 40 to 50 years ago, some of the MS300 and 400 hours counted towards your degree plan. Civil Engineering degree plan back ~40 years ago was in the 140 hour range. I could not whine to my father much about this because in his day ('49) they had classes on Saturday mornings.

Calculus hasn't changed much in 50 years. Nor has hydraulics or hydrology. Or surveying. Or street geometries. Or concrete. Or structural members. Or fill in the blank. Engineering is no harder now than it was 50 years ago. All those formulas are still good like they were back then. Newer guys just got better tools to work with. Older guys had to learn the newer tools. Judgment on how to use them effectively is a lifelong learning task.

Back to using your time in college effectively. Some guys do it better than others, but the ones that want an Engineering degree find a way. Others just find a way to whine about it. I did both during my times back on campus, so spare me the tales of how going to ~7 or 8 home football games in the Fall would keep some white belt from getting an engineering degree. BS.

Plus, attending an out of town game as part of a Corps Trip were always highlights and serious memory makers during out times. Not as many chances for that now, but making a road trip to DFW or perhaps Houston/San Antonio a few times during your 4 years is major good bull.

Some folks look for reasons to ***** about the Corps experience. Always has been. We used to call them non-regs. Listening to current or recent Corps graduates whine about similar stuff just loses me completely.



[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 9/25/2013 3:57p).]

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I'd be interested to see the list of classes required for a 1977 engineering degree

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From the 1979-80 Texas A&M undergrad catalog

fish Year (35 credits)
FALL 17 credits
chem 101 3 cr
chem 111 1 cr
Math 151 4 cr
Engl 103 3 cr
Engr 101 2 cr
EDG 105 2 cr
PE 101 1 cr
Military science 1 cr

SPRING 18 credits
Chem 102 3 cr
chem 112 1 cr
math 152 4 cr
Hist 105 3 cr
Phys 207 3 cr
EDG 106 2 cr
PE 102 1 cr
military science 1 cr

Sophomore year (36 credits)
FALL 19 Credits
Geol 104 Physical Geology 4 cr
Hist 106 3 cr
ME 212 3 cr
Math 253 4 cr
Pet E 305 2 cr
Pet E 307 Lab 1 cr
PE 201 1 cr

SPRING 17 Credits
Geol 106 4 cr
ME 213 3 cr
Pet E 308 1 cr
Pet E 310 3 cr
Phys 219 4 cr
PE 202 1 cr

Junior Year (36 credits)
FALL 19 Credits
Geol 312 3 cr
ME 327 3 cr
Math 308 3 cr
PET E 306 3 cr
Pet E 309 Lab 1 cr
Pet E 312 3 cr
Elective 3 cr

SPRING 17 Credits
CE 205 3 cr
ME 346 3 cr
Pet E 409 3 cr
Pet E 413 3 cr
Pet E 415 1 cr
Pet E 417 3 cr
Pet E 485 1 cr

SENIOR YEAR (34 credits)
FALL 18 credits
EE 305 4 cr
Pet E 405 3 cr
Pet E 428 3 cr
Pet E 438 3 cr
Pet E 448 2 cr
elective 3 cr

SPRING 16 credits
Pet E 402 3 cr
Pet E 414 3 cr
Pet E 458 3 cr
Pet E 485 1 cr
Pol Sci 206 3 cr
elective 3 cr

141 total credits to graduate, in 1980

Great info BQ74. Good insight to engineering back then.

I don't think anyone was complaining about how awesome corps trips were. And the former cadets that have been arguing to the opposite of you I know in person.

Not only did those former cadets go to all the games as they were told to, they managed their degrees and are successful now.

They did it, but are merely trying to point out the mandatory attendance requirement is BS.

Why not the same for Basketball, or baseball?

Since when does football attendance equate to leadership? It seems like the majority of old ags arguing in favor of mandatory attendance are in actuality, BQ's. If CT's disappeared from the student section, no one would have missed us. The BQ'sare the stars. They are the ones that will be missed. That is also why their sports passes are paid for. That is great. I am happy for them.

I did not join the band, and while I went to most games, It would have been nice to skip a game or two and stay in to do something else, whether it was study or bag. (I wasn't an engineer. History major here.)

I am not going to act like I needed the study time. I just don't have the obsession and desire to attend every single football game. I went to the games I wanted to attend. Looking back, I don't regret missing a few. I don't feel like a 2%er. I worked my ass of as a recruiter, I participated in corps events, and was involved in the university. So forgive me for choosing to not attend a few games, games that I paid for since I paid for my own sports pass, not the corps.

I stand corrected on the curriculum as far as number of hours. Do you feel that you cover the same information? I remember walking down the Aerospace Engineering hall and looking at the pictures of aero students from decades prior and knowing that so much had changed in the previous decades. I have a hard time believing that advanced levels of knowledge imparted by one of the top research institutions in the world has stayed stagnant in that time frame.

2+2=4. That has stayed constant pretty much thru the years. Except for Obama. I always told the new EIT assigned to me that the hardest and most important numbers he/she was going to work with and pay attention to had $ in front of them. Some learned, some didn't. Some made it past their probationary period.

I guess the sacred cow thing about attending a football game is that every cadet attends the March In. Plus a football game, certainly in the current era, is a fun thing to be at. It wasn't always that way - my fish year we went 2-9. That a cadet would walk away once already there and sulk back to the dorm/Quad is just unfathomable to me.

The other sports don't have a March In. Plus are often during the week. I got no problem passing on one of those games to study. But an Aggie football game at Kyle Field? Guys live for that stuff. And pay serious money for season tix (Trust me on this one). Cadets get a subsidized ticket, just for the asking.

30 years from now you won't remember 3 of the silly profs' names. And 90% of the stuff you learned will be delegated to your mind's trash bin because you will likely never use it again. You will remember getting a chance to see JFF up close. The choice is easy.

Was there talk of football games here?

Yea some old guys are crying about how if a CT skips a football game, he should just quit the corps.

Obviously they never missed a single formation, activity, PT session, Silver Taps, or a single Aggie sporting event their entire 4 years. Otherwise they would have no room to talk.

yeah, I'm blown away by the hypocrisy of "football games are leadership events, but don't ask me about any other sport"

I seriously can't figure out why anyone would truly want to do something else besides being at Kyle for a game. It was one of the things I looked forward to every week. And this was during the Fran years.

Believe it or not, not everyone has the same likes and dislikes as you.

It's not that I didn't like the games, sometimes I just didn't have time. And standing in the sun in a wool uniform for 4 hours in 95 degree weather was not always how I felt like spending my Saturday.

What a strange thread. I suppose there were some fellows who left the games back in my day, but I couldn't tell you for sure since I never observed it. Leaving before the game was over was not even in my frame of reference.

Maybe I could have done better scholastically had I skipped some of the misery that Coach Hank Foldberg foisted on us. I took 164 hours and passed 149 to get my BS in Mechanical Engineering (and my commission in the Army). So I support leaving that decision to the individual cadet today. It is just a subject I never before gave any thought.

One thing that is somewhat overlooked is that in the "old days"--football games, Midnight Yell, Bonfire, Corps Trips, basketball games, intramural sports, SCONA, etc were all a BREAK from the normal daily Corps experience. Most of us did ALL of this stuff BECAUSE it was a break from normalcy and was entertaining.

There was no internet. Computers were on Star Trek or used punch cards. Cable TV was expensive, pretty scarce and certainly not easily obtained in the corps dorms. No cell phones. There just weren't as many choices for entertainment. And if you honestly took advantage of the nightly CQ period during the week (then 3 hours a night), it is hard to imagine you couldn't do fine in school.

Feeling old...

Want to feel really old? A ticket to Kyle Field as a student cost me maybe $5...literally. I could have sold my two season tickets to the Alabama game for close to $2000.

Maybe some students leave the game because they sell their tickets.

Weasel...I think even in 1980, an ALL SPORTS pass for the academic year only cost about $50 or $60? Of course, tuition was also $4 per semester hour then too...

Sigh...

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Of course, tuition was also $4 per semester hour then too...

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Damn, inflation is a sonofoa...

I'm scared to ask how much your ring cost. I know in the time since I've been out the cost has almost tripled.

My ring cost me $63 and we thought we were getting robbed. I showed up in the mail right before I left for ROTC summer camp @ Fort Riley (1973). The dunking thing is a recent deal. I just took it out of the little box and wore it.

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Not only did those former cadets go to all the games as they were told to, they managed their degrees and are successful now.
They did it, but are merely trying to point out the mandatory attendance requirement is BS.
Why not the same for Basketball, or baseball?

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In 68, we fish were required to attend all basketball games and baseball games. In fact, at baseball games, it was a "fish privilege" (read, mandatory to partake in) to chew Red Man tobacco. After about 5 minutes, we were told that it wasn't our privilege to spit though; we had to swallow. After one green-faced fish passed out and fell off the old baseball bleachers and broke something, that "tradition" was relaxed significantly.

Regarding costs to games; I can fully understand why cadets may not remain at the game following march-ins - tickets (even student tickets) cost too damned much nowadays! We paid $18 for a yearly Student Athletic Pass (BQ's didn't have to pay for one - that was our "scholarship" for being in the band LOL!

Oh...and our rings were $37.50 if I recall correctly. It cost me more to have mine replaced when it got crushed under some machinery while on my hand and I had to cut it off to remove it. I later had it remade at Balfour in Houston...as I recall, that cost $75 or so.

There were, I think, two choices, although I could be wrong on this. Either 10 karat or 14 karat, with the 10 k. cheaper than the the 14 of course. It's hard to recall but I think I paid something like $33 or $35 for the 10 karat version which was something like 1/3 of the cost, the Former Students picking up the balance. Someone correct me. I also had the choice of either "college" or "university" on my ring and chose "college". And my ring showed up just before summer camp in a little box at my house, too. No ceremony.

I gotta wrap up some work stuff since today is the End of Quarter but a thread where somebody is arguing with WBBQ74 & CanyonAg77 & ABATTBQ87 all at the same time... that's worth a thorough read.

I have a feeling I already know where my Engineering Degree, Aggie Band self will wind up in the mix. Can't wait to jump in later tonight.

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas - Didn't 90% of nonregs leave in 4th Quarter - judging by TV !

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I hate to admit it but my daughter is a freshman, non-reg and as best as I can tell, she hasn't made it to the end of a game yet. In fact, I believe it was the 3rd home game before she finally saw the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band march at half-time. Granted, she didn't have the fine Saudi Arabian upbringing that I had so she doesn't think that being a heat casualty is as funny as I think it is (or at least as funny as the 18 y/o version of myself did when all those pogues would drop like flies when we had drill when it was 105 degrees F in August). But... when there was an evening/night game and she started telling me about leaving in the 4th quarter, I was like, excuse me? What do you mean you left the game before it was over?

So, I'm going to have to get my dad to tell her his story from the Fall of 1955 when A&M scored 3 TDs in the last 4 minutes to beat Rice.
A Google search turned up the highlight reel from that game. It might not be quite as exciting as hearing from my dad but it does take a whole lot less time. And that is why you never leave an A&M game early.

WBBQ74 covered the concept of skipping games effectively. No need for me to pile on. But...

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kayok09 - I still went, but if they wanted to mandate me going to the games, then they should have bought my sports pass like they did for the band.

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The band did get in free to the football games because we were performing. Part of the entertainment so to speak. There are benefits to being in the band however those are few and far between. Kind of like how my friends in LA get free beers at the bar. Yeah, a perk for them but..., I'm not having to get up on stage and perform so... I'm happy to buy my own beer. And theirs too after they've exhausted the allocation on their rider.

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football games and march ins can be huge time boofs for the fall and those that have intense majors. And others don't like football.

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All in all, I think American Football aka. Gridiron is just as gay and retarded of a sport as the next guy. However, fact is, Texas A&M is a Football school. Texas is a Football state. That's just part of the deal. Sorry about the 5-6 hours per Saturday 6-7 times a year. You ought to try being in the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band. Especially my fish year when Jackie Sherrill was the Head Coach and we went to all the games. Home and Away. Take a 15 hour bus ride to/from Fayetteville, Arkansas and get back to me on a time boof. For the record, it was 10 hours to/from Lubbock, 8 hours to/from Baton Rouge and the record bus ride for my era was 16 hours to/from El Paso for a football game we didn't even win.

I'll go ahead and throw in a week in San Diego for the 1990 Holiday Bowl and a week in D.C. for the 1989 GHW Bush 41st Presidential Inauguration.

In all the time dick arounds we haven't even discussed mandatory participation in Fightin' Texas Aggie Bonfire. Cut x 2 plus Stack plus Push. It was funny, as a fish, one of the Zips was chilling out with us and told us that don't worry about the week before Thanksgiving you'll be so busy that you'll be working on Bonfire and it will be Thursday before you realize that you haven't even had a shower that week. 18 y/o me was like - BS. I'm taking a shower every damn day. Guess what. Fall '88 was an away game in Austin on Thanksgiving Day. I rolled into my t.u. buddies dorm room on Wednesday night in Austin and it was then that I realized, I hadn't had a shower all week and I didn't even notice. Seriously. I was too busy to even miss it. Then, I couldn't do it then because I had to go to Midnight Yell Practice at the Capitol.

Was a lot of that stuff a massive waste of my time? Sure. What did I learn from it. I learned that I can pretty much do anything regardless of whether I'm given the right amount of time to complete the task or not.

Don't think that in the Military world or in the Civilian world you won't have massive time sucks. Last year, I had a project that I had to complete in 5 weeks. During that time, I made 3 round-trips to/from the USA and Australia - in Economy Class no less. So tell your boss that you'll just barely be able to complete the project on time and then he sticks you on 6 x 14 hour flights in a 5 week period. Makes 5-6 hours on a Football Saturday look pretty doable.

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jfadious08 - I'm amazed at all these people who never missed a single corps event their entire 4 years!

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In 4 years, here is exactly what I missed.

1. 2 x Battle of the Flowers Parades in San Antonio. I hate San Antonio anyway (apologies if that's your hometown) and I think I had an Army FTX the same weekend as one of the parades. The other one I traded with somebody because I did attend Mardi Gras on Galveston Island all the years that we marched in it. Including getting stuck on Galveston Island when The Causeway froze for 4 days in 1989. I also attended The Blessing of the Fleet in Clear Lake all 4 years even though only half the band went every year.
2. Dedication of the Sam Houston Sanders Corps of Cadets Center - I had a test that I couldn't get out of or get moved and I was a Zip so it wasn't like I had a lot of options.
3. Second Bonfire Cut my Zip Year because they scheduled it for Sunday morning after the Baylor Game in Waco. I was hosting a bunch of guys and wasn't committed enough to make the trek back for cut.

That's it. I did all the Basketball Band that we were required to do, I marched in every Football game. I was there freezing my butt off in Forth Worth for "The Hit". Plus all the Army FTXs, etc. Then, there was additional/optional stuff like Rudder Rangers FTXs. And there were occasional freak events like when we marched for Monday Night Football between The Dallas Cowboys and The Washington Redskins.

With respect to the difficulty of classes and the curriculum, I don't think I can improve upon what WBBQ74 said. The only thing I'll say is that I'm sure the Engineering curriculum changes with the times and remains just as challenging relative to other majors of the same time period.

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kayok09 - If CT's disappeared from the student section, no one would have missed us.

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I would have missed you. Because frankly, I liked seeing my Corps Turd buddies in the stands. Or around the track. Or after the game on the way to the post-game yell practice at the YMCA building.

Just remembered on my earlier comment about events missed and time dick arounds, I also made every yell practice in The Grove and even the pull-out yell practices in the middle of the night. One of my favorite quotes still burned in is #25 Darren Lewis - "We're gonna get busy on Texas"

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Gator2_01 - I stand corrected on the curriculum as far as number of hours. Do you feel that you cover the same information?

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Apology == Good. Question == What kind of dumbass question is that?

I sure hope to hell students today aren't learning how to program FORTRAN 77 with WATFIV compiler. But, I do hope they are learning how to program something in some language. Because right now, there are so many meatheads who believe that "Cloud" and "Virtualization" will make everything just magically happen and that we don't need to worry about any kind of logic.

jfadious08 - thanks for reminding me, never missed Silver Taps either

DogCo84 - great summary of the difference in entertainment options between then and now. I guess human interaction has taken a backseat to Facebook/Twitter/Instagram, etc. These days it's like people show up post their "Check-In" on Facebook maybe Tweet or Instagram a quick snapshot and then they're on their way. Living life 30 seconds at a time. The concept of spending 3 1/2 hours of real time on an American Football game seems ludicrous.

mickeyrig06sq3 - Got my ring in August 1991 - paid $251. Boots - paid $475. I understand why rings are more expensive, the price of gold is insane. But the price of boots has gotten completely out of hand.

In summary, if you join an organization and part of the organization's function is to be visible and set standards for the rest of the student body, I can't imagine deciding ah, nah, I'll just head back to the dorm because I have other stuff to do and that's the example I want to set. Why even go through the hassle of participating in the organization in the first place?

If you're a Navy pilot for instance (like one of the participants on this thread), do you skip officer's call at the O-Club at 1700 on Friday because it's not mandatory and the Navy isn't paying for your drinks so they can't make you show up? Or, do you go because you realize there is some value in building camaraderie with your peers and others in your organization?

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If you're a Navy pilot for instance (like one of the participants on this thread), do you skip officer's call at the O-Club at 1700 on Friday because it's not mandatory and the Navy isn't paying for your drinks so they can't make you show up? Or, do you go because you realize there is some value in building camaraderie with your peers and others in your organization?

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The O-club is not really much of a "thing" anymore, sadly. Some Naval Air Stations do not even have them. Pensacola has the most legit club I have been to, and on a friday afternoon at 1700 you would be hard pressed to find more than 20-30 pilots there. Times are changing. Most guys would rather not spend their Friday afternoon on base, after a long week of working/flying.

[This message has been edited by jfadious08 (edited 9/30/2013 7:33p).]

I'll admit it: I skipped a few games in my time, and usually it was because I flat out didn't want to go. No one ever gave me crap about it either. In fact, I would say on average half of my upperclassmen dorm mates (including staff rats) skipped each game, and that's only going by the ones I actually saw in the hallways during game time. There was never any indication that our presence would be missed.

If that bothers any of you, then well, that's your problem.

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yeah, I'm blown away by the hypocrisy of "football games are leadership events, but don't ask me about any other sport"

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I attended many basketball games while I was at A&M, both home and away and SWC tournament games, and always in uniform. And after games I would go to dinner with friends, while in uniform. I felt it was my responsibility to represent the Corps and support the team, where ever they played.

One other thing I was thinking about regarding why go to games?

I can only imagine that my game experiences in the "non-Corps block" era were very different from how it is now. The Corps was scattered all over the east side of Kyle. This was VERY advantageous for many reasons. You interacted with the non-regs. You got to meet women you might never have run into (I can't emphasize this one too strongly, lol). As a fish, you were AWAY from your upperclassmen, because they pulled better ticket locations. For the entire Corps though--other than wearing the uniform, you got to drop the Corps games for a few hours and be a normal college student.

[This message has been edited by DogCo84 (edited 10/6/2013 5:52a).]

I totally agree DogCO84. Home games were a time to be around more of the student body - specifically more women. Hard to believe we actually had friends that were not in the Corps.

Never thought about skipping a game as a black belt.

Corps block looks good on TV, but if a Corps vote were to be taken, not sure it would pass or fail.

I never missed a game. Can't understand why any cadet would. Maybe if I were sick or somebody died.

Pretty sad so many actually choose to miss them.

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I attended many basketball games while I was at A&M, both home and away and SWC tournament games, and always in uniform. And after games I would go to dinner with friends, while in uniform. I felt it was my responsibility to represent the Corps and support the team, where ever they played.

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Same here. Nothing cooler than interacting with people at away games after it was over. Many Aggies wanted to talk or buy you a drink, and many of the other schools alums would talk to us.

If you're in the Corps, you get 4 years to wear that uniform and in a very real and big way actually represent Texas A&M. I loved every minute of it, and wanted to maximize my opportunities to do it when I had the chance. It flies by, and when it's over you can look back and count the memories you made.


...or you could just go back to the dorm. Wow.