quote:

---

If Spider D is going to get integrated, that is complete bull crap. There should be all male outfits, all female outfits, and mixed outfits. Whoever is force integrating is robbing Spider D of their identity. You might as well take Reveille out of E-2 while you're at it, or make E-1 something other than the "Jocks." Is this PC? No...but who cares. Life sometimes isn't fair, nor does it need to be. Why must we please the 1%? Look at where the university went under President Murano. She was selected because she was a Hispanic female. I think she was one of the shortest presidents to serve, ever?

Look, I'm all for females fulfilling their roles in modern day society, but forcing the issue on the basis of being "fair" is stupid, and it always has been. My point is being proven as we speak at the integration of the US Army Ranger school. Physically, those women cannot do it because GOD/SCIENCE/WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE IN, DID NOT MAKE THEM THAT WAY!

We are all created differently for a reason. Girls are better at things that guys are not and vice versa. Let Spider D be good at being an all male outfit. In the words of Gen. van Alstyne, Spider D is "like an A team, small and selective for a reason...because not everyone can make it."

If anyone has any complaints about what I am saying:

1. I married a wag.
2. I am in a combat arms branch with females and have zero problem with them(aviation).
3. I was D-1 commander 2009.

I think my vote counts!

---

Lol. I remember your wife. She overheard my friend talking about how dumb it was that the batt wrote an article about females in the corps. She took this to mean that he hated wags (absolutely not true), so she over to my dorm, and broke into his room at 2 am when he was not there. She trashed it, vandalized it, and dumped feminine hygiene products all over. The worst part was, she actually got some of her underclassmen to join her in this little escapade, putting them at risk of getting arrested. My friend found out it was her (several reliable sources, including guys in her own outfit told him) and he went forward to the bulls. The bulls basically swept it under the rug and told him there was nothing they could do. Oh yea, and YOU started sending my friend threatening facebook messages telling him to stop pursuing it. Oh yea, and this girl was an RV too. Real classy girl.

In other words, although I agree with most of what you wrote, you're probably the last person who needs to be lecturing people about what is right and wrong, JV.

[This message has been edited by jfadious08 (edited 12/15/2013 3:33p).]

quote:

---

1. I married a wag.

---

Ironic that a guy married to a wag is not in favor of integrating the outfit. Never understood Corps guys who dated/married wags either since there are so many other women at A&M to choose from.

quote:

---

quote:

---

If Spider D is going to get integrated, that is complete bull crap. There should be all male outfits, all female outfits, and mixed outfits. Whoever is force integrating is robbing Spider D of their identity. You might as well take Reveille out of E-2 while you're at it, or make E-1 something other than the "Jocks." Is this PC? No...but who cares. Life sometimes isn't fair, nor does it need to be. Why must we please the 1%? Look at where the university went under President Murano. She was selected because she was a Hispanic female. I think she was one of the shortest presidents to serve, ever?

Look, I'm all for females fulfilling their roles in modern day society, but forcing the issue on the basis of being "fair" is stupid, and it always has been. My point is being proven as we speak at the integration of the US Army Ranger school. Physically, those women cannot do it because GOD/SCIENCE/WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE IN, DID NOT MAKE THEM THAT WAY!

We are all created differently for a reason. Girls are better at things that guys are not and vice versa. Let Spider D be good at being an all male outfit. In the words of Gen. van Alstyne, Spider D is "like an A team, small and selective for a reason...because not everyone can make it."

If anyone has any complaints about what I am saying:

1. I married a wag.
2. I am in a combat arms branch with females and have zero problem with them(aviation).
3. I was D-1 commander 2009.

I think my vote counts!

---

Lol. I remember your wife. She overheard my friend talking about how dumb it was that the batt wrote an article about females in the corps. She took this to mean that he hated wags (absolutely not true), so she over to my dorm, and broke into his room at 2 am when he was not there. She trashed it, vandalized it, and dumped feminine hygiene products all over. The worst part was, she actually got some of her underclassmen to join her in this little escapade, putting them at risk of getting arrested. My friend found out it was her (several reliable sources, including guys in her own outfit told him) and he went forward to the bulls. The bulls basically swept it under the rug and told him there was nothing they could do. Oh yea, and YOU started sending my friend threatening facebook messages telling him to stop pursuing it. Oh yea, and this girl was an RV too. Real classy girl.

In other words, although I agree with most of what you wrote, you're probably the last person who needs to be lecturing people about what is right and wrong, JV.

[This message has been edited by jfadious08 (edited 12/15/2013 3:33p).]

---

What the eff are you talking about? If my wife did what you say she did, then I'm sure there would have been significant evidence to get her in trouble, however it seems that there was absolutely zero proof to link her to these false allegations, so that is neither here nor there. You can't get someone in trouble based on something that you have nothing to back up your claim. As for sending threats? You're right. I was. I was sending you a "back the eff off" of my gifriend because you were taking things a little far. Impulsive cry babies is what that is called. Anyway, I don't even understand how that pertains to this conversation?

quote:

---

If my wife did what you say she did, then I'm sure there would have been significant evidence to get her in trouble, however it seems that there was absolutely zero proof to link her to these false allegations

---

It's exactly that, there was no proof. It happened at 2 am on a weekend. It was the word of several people in her outfit. Every person we talked to implicated her. If my friend did have solid proof or had she been caught in the act, we would have gone straight to the police, and not bothered wasting time with the bulls.

Oh and I love how instead of saying "she didn't do that" you say "If my wife did what you say she did". You should be a lawyer.

Yeah...so can we get back on topic here...

Whatever quarrel you have with crunch, please take it elsewhere. Regardless of anything, one thing we all have in common is our opinion of the situation at hand. Regardless if I can do anything about it or not, its just an opinion. But guys, be civilized regardless of the past and focus on the topic here. Thanks.

Oh yeah, force integrating Spider D is awful and embarassing. They should drop the Spider D name and just be D-1. No way the outfit can maintain it's culture now, sad really. The pussification of America has wrapped it's slimy tentacles around Spider D. **** it, shut it down Spider's. Better dead than Co-Ed.

For real...let's get back on topic. Selfish E-2 trying to make this thread about them by bringing irrelevancy.

When did Devil D become Spider D?

I'm frankly disappointed in the political correctness and one size fits all mentality that has swept through the Corps. Why can't we have all male, all female AND integrated units? Give the kids the option. The argument that they all have to be integrated so males and female can learn to work together is a poor argument. We spend our whole lives working together and 4 years at college doesn't mean squat in the grand timeline. If a group of young men want to be apart of an all male unit are from a "Band of Brothers". By God they should have the opportunity. Girls as well.

[This message has been edited by Aggie 509th (edited 12/16/2013 5:17a).]

[This message has been edited by Aggie 509th (edited 12/16/2013 5:17a).]

This thread...

quote:

---

I'm frankly disappointed in the political correctness and one size fits all mentality that has swept through the Corps. Why can't we have all male, all female AND integrated units? Give the kids the option. The argument that they all have to be integrated so males and female can learn to work together is a poor argument. We spend our whole lives working together and 4 years at college doesn't mean squat in the grand timeline. If a group of young men want to be apart of an all male unit are from a "Band of Brothers". By God they should have the opportunity. Girls as well.

---

Totally agree, welcome to Obama's America. Maybe our sons should join frats instead, what an exciting idea.

quote:

---

Enough!

---

No, I'm just getting started.

[This message has been edited by Carl hungus (edited 12/15/2013 9:51p).]

I wanted to say something...but I think I am just going to back away and quietly watch as this conversation deteriorates some more.

I am interested to see how this plays out. If I remember correctly, D-1 has a very strong alumni presence.

Last of the redass

quote:

---

I wanted to say something...but I think I am just going to back away and quietly watch as this conversation deteriorates some more.

I am interested to see how this plays out. If I remember correctly, D-1 has a very strong alumni presence.

---

Go ahead and say it, you're anonymous

Not completely anonymous. Out of a class of 6 guys it is easy to guess who I am.

I was just going to say...

Integration is not the end of the world. Changes came to my outfit, and while those new guys will not experience the exact same K-1 I did, they have a chance to create new traditions and try to make the outfit better.

One of the objectives you have when joining an organization is leaving it better than when you found it.

I remember my Zip year, my outfit, D-1, and L-1 hurt really bad for fish. There were a multitude of reasons for this, but one being, selling yourself as a hard badass outfit full of God's rejects doesn't really get you anywhere. I can't really speak for D-1 and L-1, but in K-1 I tried really hard to sell it as a great outfit for contract cadets, and for good reason. We had the majority of the Ranger Challenge and Sandhurst team in my outfit. My buddies have gone out to be some of the best in what they are doing.

But when you are competing against an outfit called the "patriots", an outfit that has awards, has higher number and overall participation and leadership in Rudders, you lose that battle. Which is part of what happened to us.

Many other things have happened, but that is one small instance. Changes have happened, now K-1 is integrated and a frog outfit. We even have a wag CO. I heard that wag is also the RC CO. I never professed to be a badass, even when I was in the corps, I wasn't. I was just along for the ride. I barely kept in with height/weight. 1sg Cassle kept me honest and measured me almost weekly to make sure I stayed in standards. (Hooah 1sg, thank you)

There were many male CT's that were out of shape when I was there. We (and when I say we, I mean the jovially jolly CT's) had no room to look down on wags who could out-pt us.

One thing I am trying to say is, female integration is not the end of the world, and is just another chapter for that outfit's history. I have buddies in many different outfits. They came from integrated outfits, I don't see them any less because of that.

Does it suck that future D-1, L-1, K-1 cadets won't have the exact same fish years that we had? Maybe, but I also remember some of us going through some god honest terrible stuff that should never be repeated. Maybe that is best left behind.

[This message has been edited by kayok09 (edited 12/16/2013 2:35p).]

I respect where you are coming from but honestly all I have heard about K-1 is that they were force integrated and became a frog outfit and everything went to ****. Grades went down, numbers, morale etc. now what is it? What kind of outfit is the mighty K-1 who's fish NEVER rest? It's in shambles.
When I was a CT K-1 was huge, and hard, and respected. A little neurotic? A little weird? You bet! But they were tough, and had alot of great leaders going into other positions in the Corps, RV's, staph, RC, etc. you got a bunch of brigade comanders coming out K-1 anymore?
If it is so damned important to force integrate Spider D, why is B2 and D2 staying all male? I heard it was because they have higher number of contract cadets. Explain that logic to me. It's bull****. It sucks.
Sure, not every dude is as in shape as every girl, but that isn't what this argument is about. It's about culture and history. The guys in Spider D signed up for an all male outfit with a long and storied history. It was a graduate of Spider D that started the fight on Hamburger Hill. The movie "proof of life" was based on the experience of Thomas Hargrove- a spider. Except in real life, Russel Crow didn't come save him with machine guns. He walked for days through the Jungle with no food water or shoes to freedom. When he was interviewed about his year in captivity, he said it was nothing compared to his fish year in the corps. And he was proud of that. And so am I. Hell, we all were. The fish coming in won't know any different, this isn't just about them. It's about all of the rest of us, what we were a part of, what we helped build and preserve. Now after all these years, and in the middle of the current men's Corps experience, it is being changed, and they/we have no say in it. How is that right? Explain how the bulls can justify this bait and switch, when some guys get to keep being all male? And honestly, explain how it helps working with females in the workplace? Are we to believe that everyone that came through Spider D before it had females are somehow handicapped from working with females in the real world? Come on, it nonsense, a total fabrication. We are really ****in angry about this, and we will not sit back and take it.

I get where you are coming from Carl, and you make good points. B-2 and D-2 are still running around all male and my outfit is definitely not what it used to be. But I did hear they won GM, got best fish grades and the athletic flag.

But that is besides the point. At the time of forced change, K-1 was in a moment of vulnerability, D-2, and B-2 were and are still not.

I will say this, I agree that I don't get the integration. There are still not enough females in the corps.How many females are going to be in D-1 next year?

Edit: After reading through this a little more. I see where you guys are coming from. You guys have a great outfit to be proud of. I wish you guys some success in your protests.

[This message has been edited by kayok09 (edited 12/16/2013 6:26p).]

quote:

---

I have nothing but respect for the women who join the Corps…but the forced integration of certain outfits like SpiDer D will forever change it. It will simply not be the same company anymore.

My achievements and who I am today are directly attributed to my family, faith and the Corps, specifically SpiDer D. And guess what, I treat women with respect and professional courtesy in all aspects of my life. I guess I'm a miracle case.

You all make it sound like these CT’s going through SpiDer D are just a bunch of kids this close to being charged with assault and battery of any woman who comes close to them. Let’s give these kids a little credit…the vast majority of them come from great families who have already instilled in them important values, like how to go out in public and not act like a damn caveman.

When I first was being recruited to the Corps the ability to make choices is what sealed the deal for me…contract or dnc, joining a company with women or not, CT or BQ…although I have no idea why the hell anyone would want to join the band (remember the kind who joined in high school...jk!!).

Now they are taking that away…and for what? I can’t believe the trigon is actually about to make joining a frat at A&M a better deal than the Corps.

I hope the trigon reconsiders…if not, better dead than coed!!!

In the words of General Hollingsworth “damn the policy!!!!” God Bless the Corps and the way she used to be!!

---

Not sure how I missed this, well put. You should go into politics and I should probably use paragraphs.

[This message has been edited by Carl hungus (edited 12/16/2013 7:07p).]

quote:

---

I respect where you are coming from but honestly all I have heard about K-1 is that they were force integrated and became a frog outfit and everything went to ****. Grades went down, numbers, morale etc. now what is it? What kind of outfit is the mighty K-1 who's fish NEVER rest? It's in shambles.
When I was a CT K-1 was huge, and hard, and respected. A little neurotic? A little weird? You bet! But they were tough, and had alot of great leaders going into other positions in the Corps, RV's, staph, RC, etc. you got a bunch of brigade comanders coming out K-1 anymore?
If it is so damned important to force integrate Spider D, why is B2 and D2 staying all male? I heard it was because they have higher number of contract cadets. Explain that logic to me. It's bull****. It sucks.
Sure, not every dude is as in shape as every girl, but that isn't what this argument is about. It's about culture and history. The guys in Spider D signed up for an all male outfit with a long and storied history. It was a graduate of Spider D that started the fight on Hamburger Hill. The movie "proof of life" was based on the experience of Thomas Hargrove- a spider. Except in real life, Russel Crow didn't come save him with machine guns. He walked for days through the Jungle with no food water or shoes to freedom. When he was interviewed about his year in captivity, he said it was nothing compared to his fish year in the corps. And he was proud of that. And so am I. Hell, we all were. The fish coming in won't know any different, this isn't just about them. It's about all of the rest of us, what we were a part of, what we helped build and preserve. Now after all these years, and in the middle of the current men's Corps experience, it is being changed, and they/we have no say in it. How is that right? Explain how the bulls can justify this bait and switch, when some guys get to keep being all male? And honestly, explain how it helps working with females in the workplace? Are we to believe that everyone that came through Spider D before it had females are somehow handicapped from working with females in the real world? Come on, it nonsense, a total fabrication. We are really ****in angry about this, and we will not sit back and take it.

---

[This message has been edited by Aggie 509th (edited 12/17/2013 6:50p).]

quote:

---

jock15

I wasn't saying make the corps go back to only males. I'm saying the outfits that are all male Keep them that way as a way to maintain the connection between were the corps started and where we are now.

---

Does this mean that you want to reintergrate E-1 and D-2? Each had at least one female cadet class of 1999. Hell, E-2 was even integrated during FOW of 2000.



[This message has been edited by TheGoodAg (edited 12/17/2013 10:55a).]

Yeah E-1 had females when I was in the Corps, and a bunch backstabbing, bible beating d-bags.

I don't agree one bit what they're doing to my outfit. I tried to accept what they were doing to the corps, and just rejoice in the fact that I had an amazing experience that I'll never get back, but shat's gotten a bit outta hand (I believe). I'm never gonna support them, or give 'em my money. 12th man foundation all the way from here on out.

I think knee jerk reactions will get us nowhere, which is why I am taking my time about contacting anyone other than the Spiders and letting them know. I think we need to express our opinions to the Trigon like 1sgt Cassle advised above. Threats and yelling won't get us anywhere, thats what Texags is for. I am going to sit down and write out my thoughts, call the commandant and mail a letter.

By all means, feel free to do that. From my experiences, the commandants office is bull headed, and if they've decided to do something, there's no changing their mind.

This thread

EDIT to add: When I was a fish my roommate (an all around arsehole) reported me to our CTO and claimed to be "afraid for his life" the CTO at the time informed him that he had been one of the first black bq quidons and told him to suck it up. By the time I was a Zip the CTO's were part of the problem.

I realize that my experiences at Texas A&M can never be replicated. My time with the Cadet Corps is a memory I treasure and will hold dear until the end of my days. With that said I know that outside of specific and direct contributions the Corps gets absolutely no financial support from me. I don't know if that is the right approach but I do know that sometimes the only way to make a statement is hit them in the pocketbook.

[This message has been edited by WildAg08 (edited 12/17/2013 5:44p).]

I'm an old Ag, but have a Son that was just recently in the Corps. The things I have heard from him regarding the leadership and demeanor at the Trigon is atrocious. I honestly have no idea how they expect anybody to want to go contract with the way they treat the cadets. I have personally called and tried to visit with a number of individuals at the Trigon and either they refused to talk with me or gave me lip service. I've visited with a number of high ranking retired Ags and they all voice concerns. I used to donate to the Corps, but will no longer until there is change. The group currently in command at the Trigon have a very liberal agenda and will not deviate from that agenda. My Son tells me every day was like a witch hunt on the quad with Bulls and their lackey Cadet underlings rooting out those who think differently and isolating them or finding an excuse to dismiss them from the Corps. They take no thought regarding transferring Cadets to units they don't want to belong to in attempt to quiet the discontented. I could go on and on. I have two more Sons; one of which will be a fish next year. It pains me to now have to tell him that the Corps, the organization I loved and miss, is not in his best interest and not to join. It sickens me.

I will refrain from sharing my opinion on this matter on such a public forum, but I will share an event that happened today. Here at SOS we had a retired 3 star speak to the class. I can't remember what the question was but he went off on a pretty intense rant about the academy and his grievances that he has with his alma mater. Primarily that they didn't fill all their pilot slots allotted to them because lts were wanting to go into OSI, intel, cyber and other areas. Just wanted to add this to show that we aren't the only school going through the whole ol army's going to hell grievances.

quote:

---

I'm sure many will disagree with me but I think there is something special about being in an all-male outfit and even all-male and all-female dorms for non-regs.

---

I'd love to see someone try and integrate H-1.

quote:

---

I'd love to see someone try and integrate H-1.

---

My understanding is that this is why they are now the H-1 Roughriders instead of the H-1 Raiders like they were when I was around. Several years ago, cadets and alums caught wind that they were going to be forced integrated. The old army group swore that the Raiders would never be integrated and changed their entire outfit, much like what was recommended for Spider D in this thread. The integration never happened, though.

No unit is immune, they will integrate it if they want. The SOP is to disperse or run off any objectors and bring in new leadership from outside units. D-1 lost about 50% of the class of 2015 within the past year. That many punching as Buttheads; it's by design. And this was before integration was announced.

I remember at TBS, my company was split into 6 platoons. It was completely random who was in what platoon. About 2 weeks in, some genious decided that they wanted an even spread of minorities and women in each platoon. So they shuffled a bunch of us around so there were 4 women, 2-3 blacks, 3-4 Hispanics, and 2-3 Asians in each platoon. I'm a white dude but I ended up having to move platoons to make way for an incoming minority. I thought it was funny that they were making such a huge deal out of political correctness. It ended up making us feel like children who need to learn to play nice with each other. Sometimes making a huge deal out of political correctness does more harm than good.

[This message has been edited by Jfadious08 (edited 12/18/2013 8:11a).]