Ran across this article and thought I would share it here.

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/24/256614707/air-forces-beloved-warthog-targeted-for-retirement

I love the Warthog as well, but the title "Air Force's Beloved Warthog" is pure D BS!

The AF brass NEVER liked the A-10 and tried to send every last one to the Guard, Reserve, or DM boneyard as far back as the early 80's Maybe even before that, but at my advanced age my memory is starting to fail.

It was a plane designed for the Viet Nam war and was NEVER favored by the TAC single seat fighter jocks who ran the AF in the 70's, 80's and 90's.

They hated the plane, and more importantly, they HATED its mission. It was the ARMY that had to fight and scrap to keep the A-10 as a viable weapon system.

Read Storm'n Norman's book about the first Gulf War. The first AF fighters that arrived in the theater were F-16's out of Shaw AFB, SC. Schwarzkopf was highly pissed at the AF and wanted to know where his tank busting Warthogs were.

I had two assignments providing weather support to TAC fighter units in the 70's and 80's. I know first hand how the AF regarded the A-10 well into the 90's (I retired in 1991). I highly doubt that attitude changed from 1991 until now.



[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 12/25/2013 7:22p).]

The AF desire to focus on DAS and aerial combat has always been evident. The Marines keep their own CAS platforms at great expense because of things like this. The Army gave away the Army Air Corps, then started the helicopter branch back up because if it. The Warthog is the best CAS fixed wing platform ever implemented by our military with its guns, pylon capacity, and loiter time. It's a shame the AF didn't spend more time focusing on support roles (I see troops needing air support sooner than the next dog fight).

Reading the comments at the end of the article there were many expressing the same frustrations about the AF's prioritization of CAS. Several others commented about needing to integrate the AF back into the Army.

I remember being most impressed with a story about Robert Gates shaking things up by pushing the promotion of Colonels other than ex-fighter pilots to General and reducIng the number of F-22 in favor of drones because that's what was clearly needed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both of these measures met resistance.

IIRC, a few years ago... the last time the USAF tried to get rid of their Warthogs.... they had the deal just about done, when Army Aviation popped up and said they needed the A-10, they liked the plane, and they'd take them off the AF's hands and use them in Army Aviation. Well, the USAF certainly couldn't be seen to be giving up some turf that they didn't want anyway, so they backed off (then) on their A-10 purge.

If the USAF doesn't want them, fine, but don't stand in the way of Army Aviation taking over totally the planes, and the CAS role. This kind of turf war shlt is what needs to be weeded out in our military, especially in these budget-shrinking times we are in....

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IIRC, a few years ago... the last time the USAF tried to get rid of their Warthogs.... they had the deal just about done, when Army Aviation popped up and said they needed the A-10, they liked the plane, and they'd take them off the AF's hands and use them in Army Aviation. Well, the USAF certainly couldn't be seen to be giving up some turf that they didn't want anyway, so they backed off (then) on their A-10 purge.

If the USAF doesn't want them, fine, but don't stand in the way of Army Aviation taking over totally the planes, and the CAS role. This kind of turf war shlt is what needs to be weeded out in our military, especially in these budget-shrinking times we are in....

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Sounds like the C-27 program. The USAF decided they needed to be part of it, then decided they needed all of it, then promptly canceled the program.

Loved when they checked in. Those pilots are nuts... in a good way.

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Sounds like the C-27 program. The USAF decided they needed to be part of it, then decided they needed all of it, then promptly canceled the program.

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Not before the program actually completed more than a few planes (couple dozen maybe?) that were rolled out of the factory and promptly flown directly to the Davis-Monthan boneyard.

Edit: Found this link from May 2013:

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/05/16/c-27j-reemerges-despite-afs-boneyard-plans/

Looks like 21 to the boneyard, a few more laying around somewhere, and Congress wanting to BUILD EVEN MORE! Complete FUBAR, at a time when our nation's economy is in the toilet.

They aren't even BUILT IN THE US, so we can't even get THAT benefit from the program!


[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 12/26/2013 8:28p).]

This thread has stirred some old memories vis a vis Army fixed wing aviation.

DeHavilland of Canada built two light cargo aircraft during the Viet Nam war - the Buffalo and the Caribou. As I recall, they were initially Army aircraft, but the AF won a political tug of war and got the aircraft transferred to the AF. I also recall that the AF actually used the aircraft to some benefit in Viet Nam, but after the war, they were promptly sent to AF Reserve and Guard units, where they rotted on the vine.

Other than light utility aircraft (from Beavers and Otters up to and including Beechcraft King Airs), the two most successful Army fixed wing aircraft I can remember were the Grumman Mohawk OV-10, used in Viet Nam, and the Short Skyvans that the the AF used for a short time in Europe and then gave to the Army to use for a few years.

Here's a link for the Mohawk, probably the most significant, and effective, Army fixed wing aircraft since the AF was formed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_OV-1_Mohawk

In my second career (NWS Doppler weather radar tester) I got to spend several extended business trips in Enterprise, AL, which is near Ft Rucker.

Not much to do in Enterprise (or anywhere else within a 50 mile radius) on the weekends, so I enjoyed visiting the Army Aviation Museum at Ft Rucker. It's not very big, but has some really neat displays.

Best sound in the world in the Pech and Kunar. Kiowas No.2

The OV-10 Broncos left the Marine Corps inventory abruptly in 1991 after they proved to be the easy target for MANPADS. While they had a pretty good record suviving against shoulder fired rifles and light machine guns in Vietnam the Broncos were shot down so quickly by the Iraqis and the crews taken as POWs that they were an easy cull from the inventory when the post Cold-War drawdown demanded cuts.

The irony of the A-10s is that they have not suffered a humbling at the feet of new air defense technology in the recent wars. They are just the red headed stepchild of a family that worships supersonic and strategic bombing. The Warthog does neither but what it does do is REALLY important to the grunts.

The AF had OV-10s in Viet Nam as well. I knew a few pilots who flew them in Nam and afterwards.

Interesting that the AF and Marines would have an aircraft with the same nomenclature, considering that the Army's OV-10 Mohawk preceded the AF/Marine version.

McNamara, Sec of Defense at the time, was anal about nomenclature's assigned to military aircraft. He came up with his own scheme that changed a lot of the designations. The F-110 became the F-4, etc, etc.

Was the Army's plane just being ignored? Umm ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_OV-1_Mohawk

[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 12/26/2013 11:03p).]

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In my second career (NWS Doppler weather radar tester) I got to spend several extended business trips in Enterprise, AL, which is near Ft Rucker.

Not much to do in Enterprise (or anywhere else within a 50 mile radius) on the weekends, so I enjoyed visiting the Army Aviation Museum at Ft Rucker. It's not very big, but has some really neat displays.

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Spent 2 years in neighboring Ozark, Alabama (and worked at the airport in Dothan) getting my A&P back in the mid 90s. You're right about Enterprise not having a lot to offer for recreation... unless you know the right college co-eds.

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Spent 2 years in neighboring Ozark, Alabama (and worked at the airport in Dothan) getting my A&P back in the mid 90s. You're right about Enterprise not having a lot to offer for recreation... unless you know the right college co-eds.

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Troy girls.

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from Beavers and Otters up to and including Beechcraft King Airs... Short Skyvans...

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Some of the best civilian jump planes I've been in, save I would rather be in a CASA 212 than a Skyvan because the Skyvan is so damned loud.

The "alternative" market for those used airframes is something to behold.

NormanAg, the aircraft you linked to is the OV-1 Mohawk. The OV-10 Bronco is a different, but similar plane.

Thanks, GAC, I stand corrected. It seems I made that post at 11:00pm. Obviously one too many Jack and Gingers. Should have gone to bed about an hour earlier.

As many on this board will attest to - it's far from the first time I have posted after imbibing just a little too much.

One the few vices I am still able to indulge in at my advanced age.

[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 12/30/2013 5:57p).]

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Best sound in the world in the Pech and Kunar. Kiowas No.2

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Soon the -58s will be gone too.

The only thing to do in Enterprise is drink!

Yep, that's about all I did while I was there.

But their monument in the town square to the Boll Weevil was impressive. SHOULD have been a monument to a very great man with the initials GWC... but he was a black gentlemen, so go figure.

[This message has been edited by NormanAg (edited 12/30/2013 9:09p).]

Pech and Kunar????????????

Pech Valley and Kunar Province. Places in Afghanistan.

They should transfer them to the Army but the stupid inter-service riavalry will keep them from doing it.

Thx

^sounds like a worthy letter to write a congressman about if there ever was one.

Durable plane designed around a 30 mm Gatling gun for a specific role that it fulfills very well!

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Durable plane designed around a 30 mm Gatling gun for a specific role that it fulfills very well!

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" lets mount a Gatling on the front of a cast iron bathtub and then build a plane around it. F some stuff up! "


you think this design team was ivy-league?

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Durable plane designed around a 30 mm Gatling gun for a specific role that it fulfills very well!

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" lets mount a Gatling on the front of a cast iron bathtub and then build a plane around it. F some stuff up! "


you think this design team was ivy-league?

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I don't care if the design team was from Trinity Valley Community College. Nothing like calling for CAS and having this beast come in for a gun run.

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you think this design team was ivy-league?

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Nope. Redneck all the way. When the very first question about a new airframe is basically:

"Just how damn big of a gun do they make, anyway?"

You just know it comes from the "Hold my Beer and Watch This" school of design excellence.

Grew up watching fighter jets take off at Carswell AFB and still thought the A-10 was the coolest plane out there.

I would like to know where the A-10B is kept so i can request a ride along.

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Grew up watching fighter jets take off at Carswell AFB and still thought the A-10 was the coolest plane out there.

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The coolest plane to ever take off from Carswell was the B-58 Hustler.

It is a real shame that they are trying to axe the A-10, however this is driven more by fiscal constraints and future threats more so than a hate for the A-10. To be fair, however, there was a bias against the A-10 for many years.

As SecDef Gates stated, who ever wanted to get in another major land conflict in SW Asia and the Middle East needs to get their head examined. We are currently re-orienting ourselves to the Pacific with China as the main foe. In this future conflict, the A-10 isn't as important as air superiority or strike fighters that can travel at high speeds for long distances.

Also, the threats are evolving. At the time of the A-10s design and through the Gulf War and Allied Force conflicts, low-altitude flying was a relative 'safe haven'. With the threats that are proliferating today, our air assets are no longer safe at low-altitudes. The 'safe haven' of today is in the stealth realm (hence the F-22 and F-35 programs). The A-10 isn't the only aircraft to lose relevancy with the new threats, either. The F-16 and F-15 fleets will eventually be retired as well. They just offer a few more capabilities than the A-10 (other than strictly CAS).

Most people don't know or forget that the current Chief of Staff of the USAF is an A-10 guy, so I doubt he has it out for the Hawg. But we only have so much money, and we have to allocate that money according to the threats we think we will face in the future.

The A-10 combat record has been amazing, the MVP in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many, many soldiers and Marines will testify to this claim. In my view, the Hog is among America's all time greatest fighting aircraft.

And here is a truth . . . firing the gun is one of the coolest experiences known to man.

"Pech Valley and Kunar Province. Places in Afghanistan"

VERY bad places in Afghanistan. Pech Valley is where the Book/Movie "Lone Survivor" took place.

If you read or have heard the name "Restrepo". That also took place in the same area.

Looks like a good thread on which to drop a little

A-10 Porn

(Safe for work. Not THAT kind of porn)

Watch in High-Def and full screen.


[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 1/12/2014 8:48p).]

The A-10 will retire some day, the question has always been what the replacement will be. A stealth multipurpose airframe isn't a sufficient CAS platform in their current variants, and likely never will be.

I've never understood designing the military for the wars that we'd prefer to fight, rather than designing for most likely and most dangerous enemy courses of action. Most dangerous: we maintain our nuclear deterrent. Most likely: small wars against evasive enemies in the less policed areas of the world.