htxag09 said:

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We have a wine budget and are pretty good about sticking to it. So $300 a month is pretty significant, it's another 24-36 nice bottles of wine I could have purchased......

But, yes, I get the point. That's why I'm really interested in the concept. The ones we toured in Houston just didn't offer enough benefits to offset the cost, IMO.

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it took me moving to get where I could justify the cost....

Jock 07 said:

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BLUF: Looking for recs on CA central coast wineries from ~Paso on the north end to Santa Barbara on the south end.

I recently moved back to the central coast this past summer. This is my third time living out here and really want to get into wine this go round.

I've always enjoyed wine (mainly prefer reds) but have never really "known" wine like I do beer. I've never really been able to tell the difference between a $50+ bottle and a $15 bottle.

Over the next two years that I'm out here I would like to find some good wineries to check out but the sheer volume makes it a bit hard to approach I feel. I've been to a few already and have enjoyed all of them but none have really stuck out to me as game changing.

Off the top of my head the ones I've been to based on coworker and local' suggestions have been Rancho Sisquac Presqu'ile, a few in Los Olivos (carhartt being the most memorable) Black Jack, and brick barn. I went to Firestone when I was first out here years ago in 08, mainly because I enjoy their barrel aged & sour beer program in Buellton. Another that I've been told to check out but haven't made it to yet is Jonata.

So since Texags knows stuff I figured I'd come here seeking advice and direction.

Thanks & Gig Em in advance

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There are tons of wineries in Paso Robles that should fit your budget. Generally, as long as you stay east of the 101, those wineries on the east side of Paso should work for you. Eberle is good for the price, and their tasting is free. Tobin James also makes budget-friendly wines. Sculpterra is one we've wanted to visit, but haven't made it there yet. If you head west on SH 46, there's a bunch of wineries along the highway that would be worth trying. I've heard good things about Tooth & Nail, Opolo, and Whalebone. The further north and east you go in Paso, the more expensive, generally.
I don't know much about wineries further south, but one not to miss is Stolpman. J. Wilkes is in Santa Barbara, and they make some excellent wines for the money.

Evidently, things aren't peachy-keen in St.-Emilion.
https://www.winespectator.com/articles/hubert-de-boueard-of-chateau-angelus-convicted-in-st-emilion-classification-case

I did a wine tasting in Los Olivos a couple of years ago, but it was only tasting rooms in the town rather than at the wineries. We enjoyed wines from Dragonette and Stolpman, but thought the wine at Carhartt was borderline undrinkable.

Well I thought I was all done spending money on wine this year but Pott wine single vineyards go on sale next week. After that, I'm done. except for maybe some birthday wines for my wife and some stuff at Houston Wine Merchant and….

If any San Antonio Ags are near the Forum Total Wine (1604/35 area) and see a 2004 Salon, please grab it for me. I'll come get it. And we can hang out and talk guns and bubbles.

FTAco07 said:

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I did a wine tasting in Los Olivos a couple of years ago, but it was only tasting rooms in the town rather than at the wineries. We enjoyed wines from Dragonette and Stolpman, but thought the wine at Carhartt was borderline undrinkable.

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Those are both good. In Los Olivos I'd include Storm, Story of Soil, Liquid Farm....


On my trip back in May I went to the Stolpman family property and hung out with the elder Stolpman and it was a ton of fun. beautiful vineyard sites

We did Story of Soil as well. I forgot about that one so their wine must have been fine but not remarkable in my opinion. I do recall the house/tasting room being fun though.

Just bought a case of NV Delamotte Blanc de Blanc for $45 each. May pick up another 12 to have while we wait on some 2006 Champs to age a bit more.

FTAco07 said:

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We did Story of Soil as well. I forgot about that one so their wine must have been fine but not remarkable in my opinion. I do recall the house/tasting room being fun though.

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Outside of Los Olivos, did you taste any Tribute to Grace or Lo-Fi wines? Our favorite from the area is Chanin, who was an understudy of Jim Clendenen for a long, long time.

I like Tyler wines, too, but their price point is a bit aggressive, IMO, so I don't buy it.

We also visited Pres'quill while on our trip. Beautiful setting but fairly unremarkable wines. Not bad, just nothing of note

Anyone ever buy Bordeaux or Burgundy en premieur. I'm curious about the process and expense of getting cases shipped from French or English bonded warehouses to the US.

No, but I'm in the Ch Tour St Christophe wine club and regularly get shipments straight from them. They handle everything. One time they messed up the paperwork and FedEx kept insisting on my importation certificate, but they fixed it.

Does anyone know of nice non-BYO restaraunts in Houston that will make an exception for BYOW for a special occasion? We did it at Perry's once but that was years ago. We're already doing Porta Vino and Lucios that weekend but I'd like to spend the third night dining somewhere else.

I want to say Theodore Rex had a corkage fee on their menu at one point, but it's been a while since I've been there.

jh0400 said:

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I want to say Theodore Rex had a corkage fee on their menu at one point, but it's been a while since I've been there.

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good call. has to be somewhere that doesn't sell spirits

bularry said:

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jh0400 said:

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I want to say Theodore Rex had a corkage fee on their menu at one point, but it's been a while since I've been there.

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good call. has to be somewhere that doesn't sell spirits

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Legally, that's true - but if asked ahead of time, some place will anyway.

Correct. Some are ok with a one time "under the radar" bottle that isn't on the list.

We're already doing Porta Vino and Lucio's. But after that, pickens get slim.

I know it's correct. That's why I posted it.

Fair point.

Even Napa is coming around to clones being the differentiator, not soil/climate.

Here's the descriptions from Carter Cellars of their three Beckstoffer To Kalon wines. Clones mentioned for all three. No mention of soil or climate. Only one mention of "terroir".

Carter Cellars - typical Napa w/ commensurate high ratings.
Top wines come from Beckstoffer To Kalon.
The descriptions for 2019 talk the clones, but don't mention soil and only one mention of terroir.

Carter Cellars 2019 Beckstoffer To Kalon 'The Three Kings' Cabernet Sauvignon
Another blockbuster offering from the Three Kings section of the Beckstoffer To Kalon vineyard, this wine throws off an amazingly deep garnet color tinged with an electric purple hue. Revealing superb balance and concentration, it is a successful expression of both the richness and power of clone 7 from the world class vineyard. With its fruit forward profile, the wine opens up immediately with sugar plums and floral aromatics mixed with incense and notes of graphite. The palate is epic, loaded with rounded tannins and balanced acidity - the trademark signature of this wine. Seamless and loaded with waves of decadent Cabernet Sauvignon fruit, this wine borders on stunning. While drinking superb now, give this beautiful wine a few years in the cellar to round out and you'll be rewarded by additional nuances for years to come.


Carter Cellars 2019 Beckstoffer To Kalon 'The Grand Daddy' Cabernet Sauvignon
Called "Magic in a glass", this block of Beckstoffer To Kalon produced exceptional wines in 2019 as a result of great farming matched with purist winemaking and exceptional blending. These older clone 4 vines offer our most upfront and instantly appealing wine from this vineyard. Dark blackberry fruits, cassis and toasted earthy spice intertwine to create a lavish multi-layered wine that leads to an enormous mid-palate buttressed perfectly by the wine's natural acidity and gripping tannins. Offering a unique amount of ripeness and texture, this is a weightless elegant wine wrapped up in a cloak of raw but refined power. While drinking great now, allow this wine to age several years and watch it reach its full potential.


Carter Cellars 2019 Beckstoffer To Kalon 'The O.G.' Cabernet Sauvignon
2019 Beckstoffer To Kalon 'The O.G.' Cabernet Sauvignon
Heralding from our original block of Beckstoffer To Kalon grapes planted to clone 337, and one of our most sought after wines, this dense and ethereal wine strikes the perfect balance between power and elegance. With its inky deep purple color, this wines nose exudes gorgeous notes of ripe blackberries and currants matched with complex floral and crushed earth undertones. Sweet rounded tannins integrate with a plush and persistent palate making this a complex wine which expertly showcases the Beckstoffer To Kalon terroir and purity of fruit. As with prior vintages of this wine, the structure and power of the clone 337 lends itself well to an extended decant or several years of bottle age.

I think they don't mention terroir much because that vineyard might already considered the best terroir in Napa (so beating a dead horse) and the best way to differentiate the bottlings is by clone. Schrader has done that for years.

But clonal mentions are becoming more prevalent. I've tracked this for years, and more and more are mentioning clones. Even the ones that aren't are well aware of what clones they're producing, what their characteristics are and how those characteristics contribute to their wine. Terroir is for the customers.

I understand that the romantic notion of "terroir" will never die, but since all there is is genetics coupled with level of ripening - I think it terroir will gradually morph into the purely marketing consideration that it really is.

To Kalon is the perfect case in point, Constellation wants to turn "To Kalon" into just that, and only MacDonald is (so far) able to stop them, and they can't even use the name even though their grapes are absolutely in the To Kalon vineyard. It's terroir is more valuable as a marketing concept than anything having to do with viticulture.

Speaking of a dead horse…

Look, all I'm saying is that this not the example I'd use. They are differentiating bottlings within a single vineyards, not valley wide.

BSD said:

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Speaking of a dead horse…

Look, all I'm saying is that this not the example I'd use. They are differentiating bottlings within a single vineyards, not valley wide.

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It's unfortunate that the word "clone" was chosen for sub-varieties of grapes. Thinking of them as sub-varieties makes it easier to conceptualize phenolic difference based upon sub-variety as an extension of phenolic difference based upon grape variety. Clonal characteristics, particularly in Chardonnay and Cab Sauv are well known and published by the nurseries. Vineyards are more and more using (and touting) clonal characteristics. Winemakers are as well. Yes, clones 7 and 337 (Class "C") clones have been predominate in Napa for years and they make incredible wine from them. But as the class A clones emerge (e.g. 169 and 412) you're seeing more and more winemakers use them. Roy's Moulds vineyard block has been clone 169 for a few years. 412 is a bit newer, so will take more time. You don't take $350,000 per acre land out of production to replant very often.

Of course there are probably innumerable clones out there since they are a result of spontaneous mutation. So if one producer has a clone no one else has, and it's grown only on his land, then sure, he could give the location the credit - but it's the genetics, and if his cuttings were produced elsewhere the resulting grapes would have the same characteristics for a given level of ripeness..

So make fun all you want, but the horse of "terroir" is very much alive and kicking, so it needs beating a bit more.

And To Kalon is the perfect example of terroir morphing to a marketing term, as that's precisely what Constellation wants to do.

I had some thoughts on the To Kalon discussion but I think BSD got to the point in fewer words. There are a handful of super famous vineyards in the world, and To Kalon is in that upper echelon. Marketing in that stratosphere is a little different. Clones are important, yes, and they definitely see more public attention in Burgundian varietals as of right now. I could see that changing over time, but different clones are not a magic bullet to grow great grapes in different regions all the world over.

All that being said, I'm having a bottle of Kamen Writer's Block tonight. Excellent blend of Syrah. CS, and Petite Sirah. Very glad we stopped by Kamen on our Sonoma trip!

Constellation wants the right to use "To Kalon" on any bottle from anywhere.

Quote:

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. I could see that changing over time, but different clones are not a magic bullet to grow great grapes in different regions all the world over.

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It is a necessary, but not sufficient parameter. The point is that great grapes absolutely can be grown in any part of the world where the vine can be successfully farmed. It's a farming decision, made by humans, not any specific or unique properties of the location. Yes, you need enough sunlight and warmth, yes you need soil with physical properties to properly manage water and warmth, yes you need sufficient water, yes it can be too humid making bacteria/mold too big a problem. And probably more - but it's farming, not magic.

Other than that the quality of the grapes in based upon the genetics and the expertise of the humans making the farming decisions. There are no "magic" locations and never have been. There is genetics and levels of ripening - that is the basis for all flavor in grapes. It's physiologically impossible for anything else to be involved. (I've discussed this with a PhD professor in plant physiology and he agreed - sort of bemused that grapes are the only fruit crop on the planet that asserts the overriding influence of location)

Burgundy has taken the lead in the development and use of clones for 40 years now, virtually all great Burgundies are created internationally using multiple clones. Bordeaux is there now as well with over 90 clones of Cab Sauv available.

The entire notion of terroir, as used today, can be traced to post WWII efforts in Burgundy who were desperate to recover, and was a marketing ploy, i.e. "if our wine is great because of where it comes from, then no one can compete with that".

I acknowledge that it will be a very long time before these facts are mainstream. But re-listen to Alan Rickman's soliloquy at the end of "Bottle Shock".

And I appreciates y'all's indulgence in this discussion. May be boring to most, heretical to some. Would be more fun in person w/ some great bottles open!

I found this on the list in the "Interesting Whites" section at dinner tonight. It's a Pinot Gris aged on the skins that has a good amount of tannin and acidity. I'm a fan.

Interesting. So that's called an "orange wine"? Only had one white macerated on the skins, was really pretty good.

Price point?

Retail is $45.

cecil77 said:

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Interesting. So that's called an "orange wine"? Only had one white macerated on the skins, was really pretty good.

Price point?

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I'm on the fence on orange wines. had some I really enjoyed, but can be a bit too funky at times, too

This wasn't anything like the Greek orange wines that are closer to an apertif spritz with their bitterness and funk.

Had 2018 William and Mary Proprietary Red last night. I really like this wine, it's kinda Napa does the Right Bank. Blend of Merlot and CF. The CF adds just the right amount of spice w/ a hint of pyrazine - to me a sense of pine forest floor. Good fruit w/out the Napa excess. Tame tannins - really ready to go right now. Good value.

cecil77 said:

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But clonal mentions are becoming more prevalent. I've tracked this for years, and more and more are mentioning clones. Even the ones that aren't are well aware of what clones they're producing, what their characteristics are and how those characteristics contribute to their wine. Terroir is for the customers.

I understand that the romantic notion of "terroir" will never die, but since all there is is genetics coupled with level of ripening - I think it terroir will gradually morph into the purely marketing consideration that it really is.

To Kalon is the perfect case in point, Constellation wants to turn "To Kalon" into just that, and only MacDonald is (so far) able to stop them, and they can't even use the name even though their grapes are absolutely in the To Kalon vineyard. It's terroir is more valuable as a marketing concept than anything having to do with viticulture.

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but really there are so many clones of cabernet.... what does that really mean? my guess is the average consumer knows significantly less about clones, in terms of flavor/texture than they do about terrior

To Kalon is certainly a marketing ploy, but that's because it is a great vineyard and it is a great vineyard because of the terrior. denying that seems..... i don't know, but ignoring the obvious