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Whats in your wine cellar?

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bularry
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jh0400 said:

This wasn't anything like the Greek orange wines that are closer to an apertif spritz with their bitterness and funk.
I've had some funky orange wines from Georgia (country), Italy, Austria, Alsace etc. Pinot Gris is a favorite, for sure, but other lesser known native varieties are given the same treatment, too, by some producers.

the style can be all over the map, really depends on producer and their intent
bularry
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cecil77 said:

Constellation wants the right to use "To Kalon" on any bottle from anywhere.

Quote:

. I could see that changing over time, but different clones are not a magic bullet to grow great grapes in different regions all the world over.


Other than that the quality of the grapes in based upon the genetics and the expertise of the humans making the farming decisions. There are no "magic" locations and never have been. There is genetics and levels of ripening - that is the basis for all flavor in grapes. It's physiologically impossible for anything else to be involved. (I've discussed this with a PhD professor in plant physiology and he agreed - sort of bemused that grapes are the only fruit crop on the planet that asserts the overriding influence of location)



There are "magic" locations. I'm sorry, but I've had wine from grapes all over the world. How long fruit hangs, the temperature, the amount of sun, all those things which are shaped by the farmer but not controlled by the farmer, make a huge difference. many vineyards in CA of syrah were grown from clippings in Cornas and other No Rhone areas. They don't produce the same juice. Why? well mainly because the weather is different, which I think encompasses terrior.

you can't get the same grapes anywhere in the world just using some magic clone and good farming. you can mix in all kinds of stuff to fermented grape juice to make it appear you did that, but it isn't the same thing.


and grapes are not the only crop on the planet that asserts location as important. who would asset that? seems silly argument to me.
cecil77
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AG
Quote:

but really there are so many clones of cabernet.... what does that really mean? my guess is the average consumer knows significantly less about clones, in terms of flavor/texture than they do about terrior
94 or so I think. Each slightly unique in its own way. And the average consumer is completely ignorant of clones and clonal differences. They are only aware of terroir (to the extent they are) because it has been marketed for decades. I think I related my conversation with Roy Piper a few pages back. Creating his cabernet on a blend of two clones (169 from Moulds and 337 from Hoyie) but selling it based upon the differences in the vineyards. Much more romantic and mystical and that sells well. A mere 45 years ago Napa wasn't at the cool kids table yet and railed against the concept that (other than for farming considerations) the location of the vineyard mattered.
cecil77
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AG
Quote:

They don't produce the same juice. Why? well mainly because the weather is different, which I think encompasses terrior.
That is correct. But differences in weather can be mitigated with proper farming, And the weather is not consistent from vintage to vintage anywhere. Sorry, it's clones and farming. Are there places where it's easier? Sure. Are there places where it's impossible? Absolutely. But within a large range of weather, similar great grapes can be grown given the proper human decisions.

Quote:

you can't get the same grapes anywhere in the world just using some magic clone and good farming.

Sorry, if I've implied "anywhere". Of course not. You've got to be able to farm the plant. That takes soil with appropriate drainage, availability of water, sufficient sunlight, warm enough temperature. But beyond that it's genetics and precision farming. And of course economic viability will be involved, which hasn't been mentioned. You've got to be able to turn a profit. That's why grapes can be grown to really low yields in Gillespie County (e.g. .5 tons per acre) where land is under $10K per acre, but would be really difficult in Napa with $300K per acre land.

And why the hyperbole of "magic"clones. Hardly. Just known for specific properties and flavor profiles.

I understand that this is heretical to the orthodoxy, but it's growing in acceptance. Why are grapes the only fruit crop on the planet to assert that location determines flavor? Go look at the Apple section in your grocery store. How much mention of "terroir" do you see for the 40+ varieties of apples? Flavors are listed by the apple variety, i.e. their genetics, not by where they're grown. Sure Mrs. Olsen touts "mountain grown coffee" but almost all coffee is grown in mountains. The concept of "terroir" developed to the extent that it is is unique to wine grapes.

The romance of the vineyard is alluring and absolutely has always been a part of the attraction of wine for all of us. But, ultimately, the more modern concept that moves away from the (intenfully created and continually changing) concept of "terroir" will result in much more great wine for all of us - likely at more affordable prices!

It's really tedious, but there is voluminous academic research, even from France, supporting these concepts. To be fair there's plenty attempting to support "terroir" as well, but over the past decade they've been forced to continually jump through hoops extending and morphing the definition of "terroir" as more and more evidence against it develops.




BSD
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AG
cecil77 said:

Had 2018 William and Mary Proprietary Red last night. I really like this wine, it's kinda Napa does the Right Bank. Blend of Merlot and CF. The CF adds just the right amount of spice w/ a hint of pyrazine - to me a sense of pine forest floor. Good fruit w/out the Napa excess. Tame tannins - really ready to go right now. Good value.


w

Good to hear. I have yet to open one of these.

Also, check your email.
Chipotlemonger
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AG
I think there are multiple used definitions of terroir, and that causes a lot of the discrepancy in discussion. Some view it as some magical unknown aspect of a part of land. Others view it as everything and the kitchen sink associated with a place, the human input, the local economic setting and history, etc. and people see it as both of these and everything in between.

It's almost a chicken and egg discussion. Is Hermitage so famous because of how it can do so well with Syrah? Is the Syrah famous here because of the human input and actually planting on that huge hill? Is there magic in the soil for Syrah? I'd argue no on the last question, and I think everyone would if they were being honest. But to think that the human involvement and structure of that wine making region does not give Hermitage a unique characteristic is I think wrong.

Wine has long been a commercial product. And even though you can necessarily recreate wine types all over, the commercial aspect has to be considered. If X wine from A region is $, and from B region for the same quality is $$$, more often than not people will go for the A region of the X wine.

Now, if all winemaking laws and people involved in winemaking learned from the same school, grew up in the same family, and had the same history, and winemaking was just some commodity/homogenous profession, then the human factor of terroir could be fully ignored. At that point the "location doesn't matter" argument could carry a little more weight.
cecil77
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AG


Blue Diamond for you...

Quote:

I think there are multiple used definitions of terroir, and that causes a lot of the discrepancy in discussion. Some view it as some magical unknown aspect of a part of land. Others view it as everything and the kitchen sink associated with a place, the human input, the local economic setting and history, etc. and people see it as both of these and everything in between.
This. And it's kinda the point. Any concept that includes everything, includes nothing.

Quote:

If X wine from A region is $, and from B region for the same quality is $$$, more often than not people will go for the A region of the X wine.
Yes. And so if the people from B can somehow convince the consumer that B > A, then A cannot ever be B, hence can't compete. That's pretty much the entire history and definition of "terroir". Note that in the 1800s the full term translated to "tastes like the dirt it was planted in" and was a negative.

Quote:

Now, if all winemaking laws and people involved in winemaking learned from the same school, grew up in the same family, and had the same history, and winemaking was just some commodity/homogenous profession, then the human factor of terroir could be fully ignored. At that point the "location doesn't matter" argument could carry a little more weight.

You've just well-stated the "location doesn't matter" argument or more precisely "location doesn't have to matter". People can observe and learn, especially with the availability of information now. People can also move and travel. - so those "location based" human decisions/experience/knowledge don't have to remain local.


BSD
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AG
Good terroir



Bad terroir

cecil77
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AG
I know you're being whimsical, but you're spot on.

It's farming. You can't farm in a swamp. "Terroir" means whatever someone wants, therefore it is meaningless.
BSD
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cecil77 said:

"Terroir" means whatever someone wants, therefore it is meaningless.



In your mind maybe, but it absolutely means something in my mind as well as worldwide outside of central Texas winemakers who have a product to promote.

The land dictates what you can plant (health of soil, drainage, climate, etc.). That is terroir. How you grow grapes using that land/terroir is farming. How you process all that into the finished product is winemaking. All three are needed to make a nice bottle of wine.

I honestly think you're just arguing semantics at this point. So go ahead, reply to this post but I've made my point so I'm stepping aside. This conversation has gone on long enough…again.
HTownAg98
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But isn't it some of both? Location doesn't necessarily have to matter, but there's also the economic part of it. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should, because at the end of the day, the venture still has to make money.
I'll give you an example. When we toured Adelaida in Paso Robles a couple of years ago, they had a block of cabernet that would never ripen fully. They'd drop fruit, do leaf thinning, everything they could think of, and the fruit just wouldn't ripen correctly. So they ripped it out, and planted pinot noir instead. Could they have kept struggling with it and beating their head against the wall, and make the yields so miniscule that it would eventually get there? Possibly, but at the end of the day, it doesn't make financial sense to do it. Now they have a very rare block of pinot noir in Paso Robles that makes some really nice wines.
Another example from Paso. We visited another vineyard that has both north and south facing hillsides. Both are planted with Syrah. The north-facing slope is more old world, Cote-Rotie in style, and the south facing is more new world, and what you typically find in Paso. They could farm both the same, and get the same wines if they wanted to, but why? Why not just take what nature gives you if it makes sense, and just go with it?
cecil77
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AG
Quote:

outside of central Texas winemakers who have a product to promote.
That's offensive and beneath you. Sorry, but it is.

The concepts I'm outlining weren't invented here. They are gaining worldwide for the simple fact that more and more areas in the world are producing great wine.

Quote:

The land dictates what you can plant (health of soil, drainage, climate, etc.). That is terroir.
That is correct. What your refuse to acknowledge is that "terroir", as you have defined it yourself, doesn't produce particular flavors. And that is the entire point. "The land dictates what you can plant." If you'll review the above that succinctly restates precisely what I've been asserting.

https://www.foodandwine.com/wine/is-terroir-real
* So what are we left with when it comes to terroir? Is it independent of the human hand, or wedded to it? Natural or cultural? Animal, vegetable, or mineralor all of the above? What remains appears to be a chameleon term that means everything and nothing at the same time, a concept that conveniently adapts itself to fit any situation or argument. It is clear that "terroir," in its slippery elusiveness, has benefited the wine industry.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/20549547.2019.1539816
While the word terroir was used sparsely in wine literature dating back to the Middle Ages, our current approach to the term is largely a result of debates that began in France in the early twentieth century. It was in those debates that French wines were said to be vins de terroir because they were vins d'histoire, an expression of a "naturalized" wine-based civilization that had existed over millennia. This article examines the unsuccessful attempts by social scientists and historians to write that history with a focus on labor as a central element of terroir. I demonstrate the flexible redeployment of the language of terroir across the political spectrum at a critical moment in the creation of twentieth-century French wine policy.

http://academyofwinebusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Charters-Marketing-terroir.pdf
(outlines the human, mystical and marketing aspects of terroir)

http://academyofwinebusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Charters-Marketing-terroir.pdf
* Yet until the early nineteenth century to describe a wine as having a gout de terroir was considered derogatory (Spurrier, 1998; Whalen, 2009). The current use of the idea and its importance for some consumers may be a fairly recent construction.

https://www.decanter.com/magazine/wine-terroir-soil-taste-405096/
[url=https://www.decanter.com/magazine/wine-terroir-soil-taste-405096/][/url]* Of course, a link between wine and the land has long been treasured as something special. It even survived the discovery of photosynthesis that vines and wine are not made from matter drawn from the ground but almost wholly of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen, abstracted from water and the air.

"Terroir - Myth and/or Reality - Outstanding Marketing Idea? A Review " by Klaus Schaller"
* What is a modern phenomenon is the use of the word 'terroir' to describe the idea. Its original French connotations were pejorative. Until the mid-20th century, a vin terroit meant a rustic, earthy wine with, at best, a sort of yokel charm and, at worst, faults. A wine with a got de terroir (flavour of terroir) was a shoddily made wine that tasted of unripe or rotten grapes. The idea of terroir as a more positive attribute did not emerge until the birth of the AC system in the 1930s.

"A first glimpse may cause for non-professionals that terroir has to do something with vine growing because in that commercial field it is mostly used. In a more superficial way it is connected with soil or in a wider sense with regional provenience. One can state that a multitude of meanings exist with the inherent danger that this mixture gives everyone the possibility to agree with its own belief and personal understanding which will end up in a real confusion of ideas (Pauli, 2016; Goode, 2017) "

"Meaning and sense of the word terroir has no linguistic equivalent in the English, German or other languages. Beginning with 90s of the last century the term got trendy in the field of viticulture and winemaking. The reason may be the search for a good balance between the rapid technological progress, which is currently noticed in our highly developed societies and the traditional concepts of biology. These movements as "back to nature", care for the environment have surely fostered studies about terroir and the valorization of "terroir products". "

"In other words human activities may cover the static terroir by dynamic changes of the nutrient supply. Finally the influence of the acting viticulturist is substantial and may shift the expected wine quality beyond the borders of a given "terroir". These factor bundles can be actively manipulated by the viticulturist i.e. the consequence will be that the original terroir with its effects will take a background seat. With all these effects in mind it is hard to believe that the terroir has a distinctive effect on the final product. "



There's tons more, so hardly a "Central Texas" concept...







cecil77
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AG
You are exactly correct. The financial aspect has to be considered. "Can" and "should" aren't the same thing.

However... there are modern techniques they could have used to get that cab ripe. Or could have used clones known to ripen more easily. Clone 169 is difficult to get ripe, so Dan grows it at 8 clusters per vine. 412 is easier, so it's at 16 clusters per vine.

But your point stands... it's got to be economical. So micro-yields in Napa don't make any sense. In the Hill Country they can.


cecil77
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AG
Note to all:

I will mightily attempt to refrain from this kind of thing ongoing. After six years of study and discussion, it's abundantly clear that the subject takes on all the attributes of a religious belief.

So on to more sharing of wines experienced.
BSD
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cecil77 said:

Quote:

outside of central Texas winemakers who have a product to promote.
That's offensive and beneath you. Sorry, but it is.

The concepts I'm outlining weren't invented here. They are gaining worldwide for the simple fact that more and more areas in the world are producing great wine.

Quote:

The land dictates what you can plant (health of soil, drainage, climate, etc.). That is terroir.
That is correct. What your refuse to acknowledge is that "terroir", as you have defined it yourself, doesn't produce particular flavors. And that is the entire point. "The land dictates what you can plant." If you'll review the above that succinctly restates precisely what I've been asserting.

https://www.foodandwine.com/wine/is-terroir-real
* So what are we left with when it comes to terroir? Is it independent of the human hand, or wedded to it? Natural or cultural? Animal, vegetable, or mineralor all of the above? What remains appears to be a chameleon term that means everything and nothing at the same time, a concept that conveniently adapts itself to fit any situation or argument. It is clear that "terroir," in its slippery elusiveness, has benefited the wine industry.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/20549547.2019.1539816
While the word terroir was used sparsely in wine literature dating back to the Middle Ages, our current approach to the term is largely a result of debates that began in France in the early twentieth century. It was in those debates that French wines were said to be vins de terroir because they were vins d'histoire, an expression of a "naturalized" wine-based civilization that had existed over millennia. This article examines the unsuccessful attempts by social scientists and historians to write that history with a focus on labor as a central element of terroir. I demonstrate the flexible redeployment of the language of terroir across the political spectrum at a critical moment in the creation of twentieth-century French wine policy.

http://academyofwinebusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Charters-Marketing-terroir.pdf
(outlines the human, mystical and marketing aspects of terroir)

http://academyofwinebusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Charters-Marketing-terroir.pdf
* Yet until the early nineteenth century to describe a wine as having a gout de terroir was considered derogatory (Spurrier, 1998; Whalen, 2009). The current use of the idea and its importance for some consumers may be a fairly recent construction.

https://www.decanter.com/magazine/wine-terroir-soil-taste-405096/
[url=https://www.decanter.com/magazine/wine-terroir-soil-taste-405096/][/url]* Of course, a link between wine and the land has long been treasured as something special. It even survived the discovery of photosynthesis that vines and wine are not made from matter drawn from the ground but almost wholly of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen, abstracted from water and the air.

There's tons more, so hardly a "Central Texas" concept...









Too long. Didn't read.
BSD
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AG
For those that follow the annual Wine Spectator Top 10, the #1 wine was just announced (oddly, I saw it being announced on the TV at work): 2018 Dominus.

It's a shame, I really wanted to buy that one. Now I'll have to pay a premium…or go with the 2016.
cecil77
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AG
Haven't tasted a Dominus in awhile - will need to fix that.
HTownAg98
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I found my Thanksgiving wine. A Martinelli for less than $30.
BSD
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AG
Smuggled some Pott down to Mexico for the inaugural Thanksgiving dive trip.

Esteban du Plantier
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AG
I've been stocking and drinking decently rated cheaper Bordeauxs. I'm trying to build a cellar, so I buy a 2015ish to drink and a decent 2019 to store.

The goal is to have a couple hundred bottles on hand to average a 5 year aging. My current fridge will hold 50, so I'll need another soon.

$25 Bordeaux is really good to me. Maybe I'm uncultured swine, but I'm not sure a $200 bottle could be much better. Maybe I need to burn some cash to buy something great to see.
.
cecil77
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AG
Yes, there are some really good wines in sub $50 Bordeaux.

We've been in this wine club for several years, after visiting Tour St Christophe in 2018 (my one, and probably only trip to France).

We've really enjoyed it. Not every wine is a winner, but they're good people. Several times per year there are specials with no freight.

I ordered a case of 2018 Ch L Rey Las Rocheuses, about a 19 Euro wine, with no freight. When it arrived, one bottle was broken. They sent a whole new case! May be worth a look for you...

Vignobles K - The Wine Club

And in my experience, Total Wine is the best place for Bordeaux of all price ranges. They have a bunch in the range you're looking for.

bularry
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cecil77 said:

I know you're being whimsical, but you're spot on.

It's farming. You can't farm in a swamp. "Terroir" means whatever someone wants, therefore it is meaningless.

there are many French and European works on discussing Terroir, so I'm not sure it really means, in the context of wine, whatever someone wants. I think New World wine producers want it to mean that..

But when your entire industry is trying to replicate a specific French region... well that kinda proves the point, doesn't it?

Which is why I like domestic producers that embrace their local terroir and make the wines that their vineyards produce. Lots of really great stuff out there.
BSD
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AG
US wine in Mexico, part dos.

BSD
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AG
A little Napa Valley wine at the Italian restaurant in Mexico to celebrate Thanksgiving. Just the way the pilgrims envisioned.

HTownAg98
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My wife and I were invited to do a Chappellet Pritchard Hill vertical from 2012-2017. I ranked them 14, 12, 13, 15, 16, and 17. They were all excellent.
cecil77
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AG
The '16 was one of our Tday wines...
BSD
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AG
When the wife has a milestone birthday and isn't happy about it, there's only one thing to do:





And an '89 Yquem…

Esteban du Plantier
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AG
I don't know how much money I'd have to have to be comfortable spending a thousand bucks on a bottle of champagne, but I'm sure I'll never have enough money to find out.

Here I am spending 20 bucks on 2015 Bordeaux saying 'this is really really good'.
HTownAg98
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There's a wine for every budget. It's interesting to go back through this thread to see what I was buying then and what I'm buying now.
BSD
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AG
This is tonight's red wine lineup for guests coming over to celebrate. The whites are Schramsberg BdB sparklers. Seems to be a CA theme going on.

BSD
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AG
Tonight we enjoyed what will be very quite possibly my wine of the year:

G-Town Cracker
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AG
BSD said:

Tonight we enjoyed what will be very quite possibly my wine of the year:


Quite the endorsement! I'll have to pick up a bottle for Christmas.
bularry
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Nice!!
Chipotlemonger
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AG
Having a wine I picked up on my recent Sonoma trip. This Pinot from Auteur is fantastic.

cecil77
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AG
This could be good...


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