Let's talk defense

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bobinator
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Our offense is what it is and unless the shooting fairy visits a few of our guys in the middle of the night I don't see any reason it's going to just magically get better. So let's talk defense.

A lot of focus on the result: we're giving up way too high a percentage on three pointers, but the result isn't the cause. Some folks act like our defense just stands there with their hands in their pockets hoping the opponent misses. But for most of the year we have been VERY good defensively, and good at holding our opponents to a decent percentage from outside. The magic number for us seems to be about 33-35%.

But lately that's fallen apart. So what's the problem?

The result might be too many open threes, but the core problem is we can't stop dribble penetration with one defender. We have to help on the ball, that pulls someone out of rotation, and then we give up the open three. It wouldn't matter if we were running a man, a zone, a hybrid defense or some kind of new defense as yet undiscovered. If you have to help on penetration, you're going to give up open looks from places you don't want to give them up from.

So how do we think we adjust? I think we go one of a few ways:

A) Press higher. This is what we did toward the end of last year. Cause more chaos. Put Solo, Manny or Phelps out front. Yes that's going to lead to more breakdowns and open shots, but should also lead to more turnovers which could help our absolutely terrible offense.

B) Don't help on the penetration. Just live with the opponent getting to the rim sometimes. I think this would be my preferred option to start with. Another compounding problem a lot of the time this year is we foul too much and a lot of the time it's our helping guards fouling by reaching. This is going to give up some open layups, but should cut down on fouling and open perimeter looks.

Any other theories on what we will/should try?
fightintxag13
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I think I'm with you on preferring option B, but that would completely go against Buzz's defensive philosophy of plugging the paint. If he's going to tweak the defense, he's going to go with option A as we saw last year.
bobinator
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Also there was something I wondered if State was doing on purpose but I'm almost certain Vanderbilt was doing it.

They use our switching against us by kind of milling around, or at least looking like they're milling around, and then when they get to the switch point they jump to where they're trying to go and we're a step late. Vandy got a couple of open looks doing that. Just our guys losing focus for a second because they think the opponent is just kind of standing around but that standing around is part of the plan.
bobinator
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I think option B would be much more likely to definitely help our defense, but I can see the argument for option A to try and help our offense.

Only problem is if we try to suddenly jump into being a press and tempo team we might lose to Florida and Auburn by 50. That's like deciding you're going to become a boxer and jumping in the ring with prime Tyson or something.
BigOil
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Idk, seemed a lot of those 3s had a hand in their face. We seem to get unlucky with guys going on heaters. And 2-3 of those is enough to bust a tight game open with our poor shooting.
bobinator
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They hit some tough ones but Nickel is also a 6-7 guy so someone getting a hand up if they're a half step late isn't really contesting that shot.
jeremy
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I think it's a simple fix. Stop reaching and stop trying to get in the ball handlers grill.

Aggressive is good, but we rarely steal the ball from a dribbler (hef, manny, wilcher I'm looking st you). But we're up in their belly button like it's helpful. But it isn't. Token on ball pressure is all that's needed and keep the guy in front of you by any means necessary.

That would prevent the stupid fouls, too.

Easy fix, predictable result. Less dribble penetration, less team defense/rotation breakdown.
bobinator
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A solid data point on our dumb fouls is we're among the worst at the country in fouling the other team's best FT shooters. There's probably a bit of bad luck involved here also but we're #357 out of #364 teams in opponent FT%.

Our opponents make an incredible 77% of their free throws. The only major conference team worse than us is Wake Forest. Buzz and Forbes must have traded ideas.
jeremy
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Exactly! We're trying to steal the ball at the top of the key from their best dribblers. We get a stupid foul or they get a shoulder past us, then we get a stupid foul or give up an open look.

Just like number three trying to steal it from Wade last night. Just stupid. He got several stupid fouls and never stole the ball. Either body up Wade when he puts his head down and direct him away from the goal or stay in front of him. That's the best approach to shut him down.

It takes discipline, but it isn't hard.
AggieCrew44
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bobinator said:

Our offense is what it is and unless the shooting fairy visits a few of our guys in the middle of the night I don't see any reason it's going to just magically get better. So let's talk defense.

A lot of focus on the result: we're giving up way too high a percentage on three pointers, but the result isn't the cause. Some folks act like our defense just stands there with their hands in their pockets hoping the opponent misses. But for most of the year we have been VERY good defensively, and good at holding our opponents to a decent percentage from outside. The magic number for us seems to be about 33-35%.

But lately that's fallen apart. So what's the problem?

The result might be too many open threes, but the core problem is we can't stop dribble penetration with one defender. We have to help on the ball, that pulls someone out of rotation, and then we give up the open three. It wouldn't matter if we were running a man, a zone, a hybrid defense or some kind of new defense as yet undiscovered. If you have to help on penetration, you're going to give up open looks from places you don't want to give them up from.

So how do we think we adjust? I think we go one of a few ways:

A) Press higher. This is what we did toward the end of last year. Cause more chaos. Put Solo, Manny or Phelps out front. Yes that's going to lead to more breakdowns and open shots, but should also lead to more turnovers which could help our absolutely terrible offense.

B) Don't help on the penetration. Just live with the opponent getting to the rim sometimes. I think this would be my preferred option to start with. Another compounding problem a lot of the time this year is we foul too much and a lot of the time it's our helping guards fouling by reaching. This is going to give up some open layups, but should cut down on fouling and open perimeter looks.

Any other theories on what we will/should try?
What we should try is literally just go back to what we were doing. First half of the year, we played Solo at the top of that matchup zone hybrid and he shut down a lot of the dribble drive. That's hasn't been the case lately.

It's been a lot of other guys up top and it shows. I don't care how well coached you are if you get beat off the dribble a defense will break down and leave someone open
NyAggie
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bobinator said:

They hit some tough ones but Nickel is also a 6-7 guy so someone getting a hand up if they're a half step late isn't really contesting that shot.


Yep

I think the reason guys go on heaters against us is because we give them some open looks early, and once a shooter gets an open look and hits, he tends to get in a groove





AggieCrew44
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With solo defending, even if guys "get by him" he still is able to contest. I'll live with a guy shooting a contested shot over him and not helping with secondary defenders. If they make it tip your cap
bobinator
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Yeah my guess is we moved Solo down to try and contest corner threes better but I agree he needs to be up top. He's also not a particularly good post defender anyway.

We'll have to live with the times that teams manage to get like Wade isolated on a 6-8 guy or whatever.
Complete Idiot
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Option B SOUNDS better but opponent will just keep moving the ball until they get the matchup they want and penetrate based on that matchup. But that's not necessarily easy to do so I still prefer option B.
AggieCrew44
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bobinator said:

Yeah my guess is we moved Solo down to try and contest corner threes better but I agree he needs to be up top. He's also not a particularly good post defender anyway.

We'll have to live with the times that teams manage to get like Wade isolated on a 6-8 guy or whatever.
Yeah it was happening but not commonly enough for it to matter
DaShi
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bobinator said:

A solid data point on our dumb fouls is we're among the worst at the country in fouling the other team's best FT shooters. There's probably a bit of bad luck involved here also but we're #357 out of #364 teams in opponent FT%.

Our opponents make an incredible 77% of their free throws. The only major conference team worse than us is Wake Forest. Buzz and Forbes must have traded ideas.


This is interesting as we generally play very physical D, but the stat would say opponents are too comfortable and fresh
TjgtAg08
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bobinator said:

A) Press higher. This is what we did toward the end of last year. Cause more chaos. Put Solo, Manny or Phelps out front. Yes that's going to lead to more breakdowns and open shots, but should also lead to more turnovers which could help our absolutely terrible offense.
Is there some happy middle of "pressing higher" in the half court but also "pressing lower" in the full court? I don't have data to back this up, but it feels like over the last few games our 3-quarter press has been completely ineffective and, when quickly broken, has left us scrambling to get back and over-rotating. Could we press harder/higher in the half court but stop pressing in the 3/4 court? Or go to a more man-to-man press vs that zone press? That might be too exhausting.

Quote:

B) Don't help on the penetration. Just live with the opponent getting to the rim sometimes. I think this would be my preferred option to start with. Another compounding problem a lot of the time this year is we foul too much and a lot of the time it's our helping guards fouling by reaching. This is going to give up some open layups, but should cut down on fouling and open perimeter looks.
This feels like the easiest change to make, but what has been the difference recently vs earlier in the year? It is just that other teams have figured us out? Or are we just losing the games when we play a team with guards that can penetrate and winning the games against teams that have guards that can't?

Even if we don't want to do this completely, I think we absolutely have to do it with the farthest back end player, especially when its a guard (aka Wade). When we sag on that back side so damn much and then the ball quickly rotates around, we are lost and it seems like only Solo can get back out to the shooter. I've seen Wade sag so much that it looks like he forgets anyone is back there at all and doesn't even try to get back on a reversal pass.

Another opinion I have with zero data to back it up is that Phelps looks a step slow/run down/tired on both ends. His shots, especially from 3, seem to come off his hands really slow and soft, and he just looks a step slow on defense.

And finally, can we not switch as much, especially with Payne? He's a fantastic shot blocker at the rim, keep him down there.
bobinator
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Some of it is definitely the opponents, that's why I don't think we'll just completely abandon the plan. Hubbard and Ziegler are really really good. But Vandy did it much more by committee than any one guy.

Some of it also frankly is just sequencing and luck. There's probably not two teams in the league more different offensively than Tennessee and Vandy and we played them back to back.

I do wonder if Solo is hampered a bit by his injury or something. He's not the same level of on-ball perimeter defender he was earlier in the season.
BuzzFan24
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bobinator said:

Our offense is what it is and unless the shooting fairy visits a few of our guys in the middle of the night I don't see any reason it's going to just magically get better. So let's talk defense.

A lot of focus on the result: we're giving up way too high a percentage on three pointers, but the result isn't the cause. Some folks act like our defense just stands there with their hands in their pockets hoping the opponent misses. But for most of the year we have been VERY good defensively, and good at holding our opponents to a decent percentage from outside. The magic number for us seems to be about 33-35%.

But lately that's fallen apart. So what's the problem?

The result might be too many open threes, but the core problem is we can't stop dribble penetration with one defender. We have to help on the ball, that pulls someone out of rotation, and then we give up the open three. It wouldn't matter if we were running a man, a zone, a hybrid defense or some kind of new defense as yet undiscovered. If you have to help on penetration, you're going to give up open looks from places you don't want to give them up from.

So how do we think we adjust? I think we go one of a few ways:

A) Press higher. This is what we did toward the end of last year. Cause more chaos. Put Solo, Manny or Phelps out front. Yes that's going to lead to more breakdowns and open shots, but should also lead to more turnovers which could help our absolutely terrible offense.

B) Don't help on the penetration. Just live with the opponent getting to the rim sometimes. I think this would be my preferred option to start with. Another compounding problem a lot of the time this year is we foul too much and a lot of the time it's our helping guards fouling by reaching. This is going to give up some open layups, but should cut down on fouling and open perimeter looks.

Any other theories on what we will/should try?
If we are being honest Wade can't guard a chair. He may be decent off ball and Buzz trusts his ability to communicate within their defensive scheme but, top SEC guards smile ear to ear when they know Wade will be guarding them.

Not sure there's a good fix. I do like Solo up top more but, that's not too much of an adjustment. I don't think the way the scheme is designed that staying home will be effective on a late-season change of plans, especially with our schedule.

Vandy knew we switch and seemed to ghost a ton of screens which causes major confusion amongst switching teams. Vandy being a 5 out based team with shooters is tough for that too.

Bobinator - do you think there is much of a difference between perimeter oriented and post oriented teams when it comes to our defense?

At the end of the day our offense has to help our defense and vice versa. IMO
Mikeyshooter
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I've never understood our defensive philosophy so I'm glad it's out here for discussion.

While I agree that our defense has been good this season, it seems like an outlier compared to recent years. Of the top teams in the country, no other teams try to play defense the way we do.

I'm not saying we should be exactly like everyone else, but there is a formula for playing good defense that starts with good on-ball defense but also requires guys that can hedge and recover.

Our strategy appears to just hedge and rotate which allows teams to get us scrambling with a single dribble penetration or skip pass. Our defense has only succeeded because of our experience and superior athletes compared to previous years.

I've stopped complaining about it on here because it's clear that Buzz isn't changing. But I'd much rather be a traditional defensive team like UH, Tennessee, and Michigan State that just plays straight up defense without any cute tricks.





bobinator
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It definitely works better against more traditional balanced offenses but that's probably as much personnel as it is scheme.
bobinator
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I actually think UH plays defense a lot like us from a philosophy standpoint, they're just way better at it and their players are better than ours.
cutter
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TjgtAg08 said:

Another opinion I have with zero data to back it up is that Phelps looks a step slow/run down/tired on both ends. His shots, especially from 3, seem to come off his hands really slow and soft, and he just looks a step slow on defense.

The Phelps I saw last night looked like a player who had lost all confidence. I think he had two good looks from 3 early in the game and missed both, and after his 1-7 performance against Tenn, he just seemed lost for the rest of the game. His stat line ended up looking OK because of all the layups in garbage time, but I thought he had a really poor game.
Complete Idiot
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bobinator said:

I actually think UH plays defense a lot like us from a philosophy standpoint, they're just way better at it and their players are better than ours.
I am not sure from a numbers standpoint the UH defense is even that much better but what they don't have to deal with nearly as often as the Ag defense is scrambling to position themselves or get their mental energy back up after some offensive mistake or ineptitude.
bobinator
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It's definitely way better. These are their defensive efficiency (by Torvik) ranks the last few years: 1, 1, 5, 6, 12.

This is our best defensive year under Buzz, by a lot, and we're currently 12th.

Also I'm not saying our scheme and Houston's is exactly the same because it's not, we switch a lot more than they do and some other things, but its similar philosophically in what we want to defend, how we defend it, how we play screens, etc.
Mikeyshooter
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UH doesn't switch the way we switch and you rarely see them in a wild rotation like we do.



bobinator
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That's because they don't break down as often we do. But my point with Houston is they aren't what you'd call a traditional man to man defense either like maybe a Duke is. They do some exotic stuff for the same reasons we do it, trying to keep the ball out of the paint and the middle of the floor and force the action towards the sideline/baseline.

But again, different level of ball players, different level of coaching. They're way better at it.

AggieNattie
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That's what I'm thinking. They're like us if we were a step quicker on D and with more shooters.
Topher17
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The philosophies are very similar, but we are so so committed to the system and we refuse to really change much about it. I find Houston, and Chris Beard who runs a similar scheme, are way more willing to adjust to their opponent and how they defend game to game. Some nights if they think they can switch every single thing, like we do, they will, but other nights or even in the same game they may adjust to fight through every screen, which they're also way better at.

It obviously has worked well most of the time this year, but I do find myself getting frustrated that we very rarely are willing to stray from the scheme, regardless of personnel or opponent. When you have nights that even your most experienced guys in the system, like Andy or Henry, are getting lost or missing assignments because of what the opponent is doing you have to have the ability to adjust and we rarely do.
LouisvilleAg
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I think we need to continue to switch on defense. I also think that we need to mix up how we help on dribble penetration. We tend to have everyone drop back to the paint on the dribble penetration. And we are very predictable in that. So I think we just need to mix the percentages and how many people are helping on penetration. Just mixing it up will lead to some bunnies for the opposing team, but I also think it will cause more turnovers. Less possessions means a lower scoring game.

I also think we need our offense to stop jacking up 3s. Less than 20 a game would be ideal. Long rebounds usually means a broken floor if we don't rebound. Especially since we send so many to the bucket for offensive rebounding. Really, only CJ, 4, Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting 3s. Solo and Jace should be only in for defense. And CJ and 4 should be the only green lights. Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting if wide open.
BuzzFan24
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LouisvilleAg said:

And CJ and 4 should be the only green lights. Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting if wide open.
4 is shooting about 4% from 3P, at least that's what it feels like.

That ONE game Jace hit a couple threes --vs TT I think - it seemed like he was that missing piece - an actual two side of the ball wing compliment to our guards. But as we know it was short lived.
Topher17
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LouisvilleAg said:

I also think we need our offense to stop jacking up 3s. Less than 20 a game would be ideal. Long rebounds usually means a broken floor if we don't rebound. Especially since we send so many to the bucket for offensive rebounding. Really, only CJ, 4, Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting 3s. Solo and Jace should be only in for defense. And CJ and 4 should be the only green lights. Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting if wide open.
It feels like sometime in the last few weeks someone told Andy to start shooting more. Shots he used to pass up, he's now taking. I'm mostly fine with that when he's open. The opposite needs to be done for Solo. Teams are giving him wide open looks and not even bothering to close out. The only scenario he should be shooting from deep is if the shot clock is under about four seconds. He's one of our best rebounders, to me that means if he is the one shooting it, our chance at a rebound is significantly lower making it an even worse shot than it already is.
Topher17
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BuzzFan24 said:

LouisvilleAg said:

And CJ and 4 should be the only green lights. Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting if wide open.
4 is shooting about 4% from 3P, at least that's what it feels like.

That ONE game Jace hit a couple threes --vs TT I think - it seemed like he was that missing piece - an actual two side of the ball wing compliment to our guards. But as we know it was short lived.
That is the frustration with Solo and Jace. If they had any offensive ability at all, we'd be significantly better, but they don't. They're both + defenders that are total black holes on the offensive end. If the two of them just shot 30% from deep, that is seven additional made shots this season. You can't directly tie those points to specific games, but it isn't outlandish to think that could lead to one or two more wins. More so it would open up the offense in other ways, such as giving Payne more room to work or driving lanes for Phelps.
TjgtAg08
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Topher17 said:

LouisvilleAg said:

I also think we need our offense to stop jacking up 3s. Less than 20 a game would be ideal. Long rebounds usually means a broken floor if we don't rebound. Especially since we send so many to the bucket for offensive rebounding. Really, only CJ, 4, Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting 3s. Solo and Jace should be only in for defense. And CJ and 4 should be the only green lights. Andy, Phelps, and H should be shooting if wide open.
It feels like sometime in the last few weeks someone told Andy to start shooting more. Shots he used to pass up, he's now taking. I'm mostly fine with that when he's open. The opposite needs to be done for Solo. Teams are giving him wide open looks and not even bothering to close out. The only scenario he should be shooting from deep is if the shot clock is under about four seconds. He's one of our best rebounders, to me that means if he is the one shooting it, our chance at a rebound is significantly lower making it an even worse shot than it already is.


Which begs the question "why is he on the perimeter so much?" He should barely ever have a wide open 3 opportunity because he shouldn't be out there, but we are starting him alongside Payne and Andy, so he doesn't have a lot of places he can go inside, and he doesn't move without the ball on the perimeter AT ALL.
GigEm81
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Our philosophy is not to give up the paint. We expect to be able to close out on the 3 point shooter and prevent him shooting a high percentage.

When we have encountered hot shooters from deep (Lanier unexpectedly, Nickel) that has created more problems. This also happened against Oklahoma earlier and in that case I think it was as someone suggested: unheralded guy hit a couple and gained confidence.

I thought we closed out on Nickel pretty well generally and he did cool off some, but he made tough shots, give him credit.

I did think we gave up way too much dribble penetration against Vandy. That's how they are built. We took advantage of them down low on the other end .
A key for us defensively was the fouling. Got them into the bonus too early in 2nd half. That hurt. And losing turnover battle with some sloppy offensive play.

I favor pressing higher. I don't think we want to give up layups. But our on ball tactics could be better to avoid needless fouls. That may be the real key.

Also we were not far away from winning yesterday and vs Tennessee.
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