Let's take a look at Buzz

7,563 Views | 86 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by 2nd Generation Ag
Bunk Moreland
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Buzz is Mike Tomlin. It's not exciting aesthetically, we won't embarrass ourselves, but we likely won't ever have the offensive talent required to win a title. We have to decide if we're ok with that as a program.

Personally, I'm more interested in taking the chance and risking the program falling off by going after someone who might be able to get the program over the hump and truly in the mix for a final 4 or title shot.
bobinator
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AG
2nd Generation Ag said:

6 years ago when he was hired these schools had the same issues. Minimal history of good basketball and support, no real tradition, nothing

Auburn
Bama
Tenn
Baylor
Texas Tech
Texas A&M

How would you rank these schools today? We are dead last.

The coach is everything. It isn't the school

I haven't read this whole thread so hopefully others pointed this out too but this is the kind of insane thing you post under the guise of being "objective." These six schools had absolutely nothing in common six years ago.

- Auburn hired Bruce Pearl in 2014, so he's four years into his tenure there. And through three years he absolutely sucked, though in 2017 he was dealing with the fallout of the corruption scandal. They made the second round of the tournament in 2018 and then the Final Four in 2019.

- Alabama in year four of the Avery Johnson experiment, one that MANY PEOPLE on here were absolutely outside their minds about us not doing. They finally fired him and got the best coach available in 2019, Buffalo's Nate Oats and the rest is history. Also not for nothing but Alabama's basketball history is significantly better than ours.

- Saying Tennessee has "minimal history of good support, no real tradition" is an insane thing to say, but they were several years into the Rick Barnes era and had already made the second round and the Sweet 16.

- Same with Baylor, by 2018 Baylor had already made the Elite Eight twice under Drew and the Sweet 16 two other times.

- Texas Tech hired Chris Beard in 2016, who was immediately successful and took them to the Elite Eight in 2018 and then THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME in 2019.

So if you're ranking those jobs in 2018, we were already next-to-last at best. Four of the six had established coaches, three were coming off of AT LEAST making the Sweet 16. . Us and Alabama were both hiring coaches, they went with an up and comer and we went with the best established coach on the market we could get.
Pumpkinhead
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AG
We could have a better coach than Buzz but we could also have a lot worse situation than 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every season. Which he has now done for three straight years.

Texas ran off Barnes because they got tired of 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every year, and how has that worked out for them so far? They are now hiring the FOURTH head basketball coach since running off Barnes, who went to Tennessee and being doing really good there all that time.

So...I don't know...it will be interesting to see how next season plays out (assuming Buzz is back) because this obviously is a 'rebuild' year now for him. For example, if we make the NCAA yet again next year with a rebuilt Buzz roster, even if still a first or second round loser...well...then...I don't know what to tell ya. You might be in that 'not good enough to make all the fans happy but not bad enough to seriously considering firing' middle ground place.

Kind of like where this board seemed to be with Mark Turgeon before he left.

But, again, will be interesting to see how next season plays out. Can Buzz do a 1-year rebuild?
Bunk Moreland
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Quote:

Texas ran off Barnes because they got tired of 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every year, and how has that worked out for them so far? They are now hiring the FOURTH head basketball coach since running off Barnes, who went to Tennessee and being doing really good there all that time.

Discussed this very thing with a sip fan this weekend. He agreed that even though Barnes continues to find success and the sips have been all over since he left, he has enjoyed searching for something better even though they haven't found the right fit yet. Beard clearly was going to be but screwed that up himself. Staleness, even when it's a relatively successful level of staleness, can still stall out a program and fanbase.
Divining Rod
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2nd Generation Ag said:

6 years ago when he was hired these schools had the same issues. Minimal history of good basketball and support, no real tradition, nothing

Auburn
Bama
Tenn
Baylor
Texas Tech
Texas A&M

How would you rank these schools today? We are dead last.

The coach is everything. It isn't the school



Not a Buzz defender, but your "analysis" is flawed- you picked 6 teams with great results. what about the teams in similar positions that had new coa hes that did NOT work out?

I bet we had better results than a bunch of other schools.
GrayMatter
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AG
Aggie Dad 26 said:

Texas A & M said:

Our last coach, who we fired, accomplished more in less time than Buzz. The idea that we can't find a coach who can make a Sweet 16 in 6 years is hilarious because Billy Kennedy did it twice

Until we set higher standards, we will be content with being something better than a total dumpster fire basketball program. Championships should be the standard. Not "good seasons"
You're barking up the wrong tree if you're all about setting higher standards in the basketball program.

You certainly don't do that on boards and we've never supported basketball, so what's new?
GrayMatter
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AG
Pumpkinhead said:

We could have a better coach than Buzz but we could also have a lot worse situation than 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every season. Which he has now done for three straight years.

Texas ran off Barnes because they got tired of 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every year, and how has that worked out for them so far? They are now hiring the FOURTH head basketball coach since running off Barnes, who went to Tennessee and being doing really good there all that time.

So...I don't know...it will be interesting to see how next season plays out (assuming Buzz is back) because this obviously is a 'rebuild' year now for him. For example, if we make the NCAA yet again next year with a rebuilt Buzz roster, even if still a first or second round loser...well...then...I don't know what to tell ya. You might be in that 'not good enough to make all the fans happy but not bad enough to seriously considering firing' middle ground place.

Kind of like where this board seemed to be with Mark Turgeon before he left.

But, again, will be interesting to see how next season plays out. Can Buzz do a 1-year rebuild?
Buzz did fairly well in the portal in acquiring Payne and Phelps. Phelps started off well and then his production tailed off towards the end of the season. Payne was a gold mine so I'm thinking he's gonna hit the portal pretty hard and find us a few guards and maybe a big man to help us next year. We do have unproven talent back next year to go along with a senior Solo/Payne.
Pumpkinhead
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AG
Bunk Moreland said:

Quote:

Texas ran off Barnes because they got tired of 'merely' making the NCAA tournament every year, and how has that worked out for them so far? They are now hiring the FOURTH head basketball coach since running off Barnes, who went to Tennessee and being doing really good there all that time.

Discussed this very thing with a sip fan this weekend. He agreed that even though Barnes continues to find success and the sips have been all over since he left, he has enjoyed searching for something better even though they haven't found the right fit yet. Beard clearly was going to be but screwed that up himself. Staleness, even when it's a relatively successful level of staleness, can still stall out a program and fanbase.
Some fans say this unless the next hire bombs and they are missing the NCAA tournament for at least 4-5 years before yet another change. Because each hire...that is what you are stuck with for better or worse for another 4-5 year cycle. Realistically, ADs are not typically going to be recycling through their coaches much faster than that.

Of all the school's in the OP's jealousy list, how many of them to get their current guy had to deliberately run off a moderately successful coach who was making the NCAA tournament every season but had gotten 'stale', versus fired a coach who was missing NCAA tournaments or had left the school for a different job or some other reason, thus creating an opening the school then had to fill?
bobinator
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AG
I do think both Texas and Barnes were better off splitting up. It's one thing to keep bumping your head against the ceiling but it's another when you broke through a couple of times and then went back.
agracer
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Texas A & M said:

Our last coach, who we fired, accomplished more in less time than Buzz. The idea that we can't find a coach who can make a Sweet 16 in 6 years is hilarious because Billy Kennedy did it twice
??

Kennedy had an NIT second round loss and made it to the NCAA Tournament once (with that crazy North Iowa win and a sweet 16 loss) in his first 6 seasons.. Followed that up with a losing season. How is that more than 2 NCCA Tournament appearances in 6 seasons?
Texas_Ag11
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AG
This whole discussion is cherry picking other programs. Sometimes its about hiring someone with a little more risk. Auburn was so down they took a shot at a coach that had been in a lot of trouble in the NCAA with multiple programs. He has been a resounding success. Ole Miss is doing the same with Chris Beard. I loved Kelvin Sampson when he was with the Rockets, openly wished the Ags hired him. But he also picked the perfect spot with Fertitta getting really involved in a potential purchase of the Rockets, got to know Kelvin, UH hired him and he built an amazing program. Prior to Sampson and after Lewis, UH was an awful basketball program. St. Johns hiring Pitino was risky, but the risk is sometimes worth the reward.

In our case, we went with a proven guy and money whipped him into coming here. I would argue he has delivered exactly what the AD wanted - albeit a little slower than we planned. They got a guy that everyone in the industry respects, they get to the tourney consistently and they do it without breaking the bank. We aren't doing it with fantastic facilities, or huge NIL. Buzz is just a winner. I actually think we have a guy that can be our first consistent winner in basketball here. Make the tourney 8 of 10 years, find a year that we can make some noise, occasionally get a game changing 5 star that might be paired with a few others and get deep in the tourney. I still feel like he is building something.

Now, if we think that we are legitimately going to try for a FF level team, and really focus on basketball, then I might agree that its worth taking a shot at another coach. But I would argue against going mid major, and swing again for the fence. The challenge is its really hard to get a truly game changing coach to come here with out something really special (and expensive) in mind. But lets play this out. Lets go get a proven winner in the tourney, that is still coaching (or close to it). We are talking - Tom Izzo, Bill Self, Calipari, Pitino, Mark Few, Thad Matta, Dan Hurley, Sampson. then a group of coaches not quite on that level: Altman, Barnes, Chris Beard, Cronin, Painter. Of that list, there are the no way in hells - Izzo, Self, Cal, Hurley, Sampson, Pitino (IMO). So you are left backing up the truck to convince Few, Barnes, Beard, Conin, Oats or Painter to come here. The most interesting of those is hiring Chris Beard. It's the biggest risk (he has some stink on him), but he is a great coach, won everywhere he has been. It would also be a poor mans Schloss punch to the nuts of our rival given he is a Texas alum, and if successful, would really stick in their craw. All that said, we aren't going that route and those coaches won't say yes without, IMO, a new arena and a war chest of NIL to dole out.
Pumpkinhead
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AG
bobinator said:

I do think both Texas and Barnes were better off splitting up. It's one thing to keep bumping your head against the ceiling but it's another when you broke through a couple of times and then went back.
Yeah, it seemed best for both of them. He was there like, what? 17 seasons or something? I've heard that saying from coaches that after about 10 years most coaches get 'stale' even if moderately successful. Familiarity breeds contempt and so forth. I'm not sure we've really hit the 'Buzz has gotten 'stale' point yet because we just finished season three of his first rebuild era (which the COVID thing really messed up the beginning stages of). I kind of think it is like you said where we probably have to go through least one more 'rebuild' cycle...at least another couple of years, before the 'stale' thing might really start to gain traction in a notable portion of the fan base.
Texas_Ag11
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AG
One last point, and not that I think this is important AT ALL, but our womens team is a disaster as well and playing in Reed is not going to help them rebuild. But we are in the same position of needing to hire a big name coach in a league full of big name coaches. right now, we are in post RC Big 12 land where Mack, Stoops, Saban surrounded us and we were hiring dopes to run football.

IMO, we need to tear down Koldus garage and building. Build a new 9k arena that can easily contract to less than that for volleyball, all glass, cool new design, students on one side, alumni on the other with suites. Pitch is as a space to use for football game weekends for indoor concessions, use of suites and other spaces, kids zone on the floor of the basketball area. Have volleyball, womens and mens basketball use it. It gets use for football weekends (important), will be a better concert venue, right in the middle of campus.
2nd Generation Ag
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Bobinator let it rest. The point I am making is these schools at one point have all the issues we complain about.

- Don't support it
- Fans don't care
- No investment in the program
- No real tradition
- Bad facilities (Baylor won a NC with the worst arena in the worst city in America)

They made an effort to change it and they did. The coaches they hired are better than ours. I am not saying Buzz is a bad coach. He is a good solid coach. I dont think we should fire him. But he needs to do better. There are a bunch of coaches recently that have made the sweet 16 in less than 3 years. We are now going on year 7.

The excuses don't fly anymore. If he needs money raise it. Every other business or charity does it.
2nd Generation Ag
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Once again read my post above. These school several years had nothing in basketball and now look at them. That's my point. My dates may be a little off but these schools were for the most part bottom of the barrel when it came to basketball.

Now look at them compared. They had every excuse we do but they did it.
bobinator
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AG
Let what rest? You're the one that started this thread on a premise that isn't true. You made it sound like it was a race that started in 2019 and we were all on the same part of the track when in fact 4/5 other teams were already miles ahead of us.

There's plenty to criticize about Buzz without that kind of false equivalency.
2nd Generation Ag
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I am not criticizing him. I am criticizing the school and the alumni that dis basketball and for some reason think we can't win.

My point is it's an A&M thing. You need the right coach and it will get done. Buzz is solid. I am not saying fire him
 
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