Proposition Joe said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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HotardAg07 said:

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None of that is contradicting what I've pointed out. I have repeatedly said that we are at "normal ICU capacity" and that surge capacity is available. I have posted what those numbers look like. I have also said that due to the rapid growing trend, we would be out of sustainable surge capacity in 12 days at this pace -- ACCORDING TO THE TEXAS MEDICAL CENTER, not the media, not a politician..

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"Stop moving the goal posts. You are claiming that this is a media driven hoax. I have gone way out of my way to post not just hospital data but actual ER doctor's quotes to show the contrary and you have ignored it all. This is not a media driven hoax."


I just gave you quotes showing my claim regarding the media has merit.

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You do understand all that you did is post your own media source and assumed that there's no way it could be a media driven hoax?

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You are telling me the quotes from real people are BS and a hoax?

ElephantRider said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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texan12 said:

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At what point do these measures delay herd immunity?

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The herd immunity that science isn't even settled on being a real impact?

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If herd immunity isn't going to be a thing then that's even more of a reason to return to normal now. We can't stay in a state of perpetual lockdowns until a vaccine comes sometime in December or next year, if there even is a vaccine at all. There's no guarantee that these lockdowns are going to save lives in the long run. They are simply destroying livelihoods.

People need to accept that covid is a part of life like every other disease. The reality is that you're probably going to catch it and that you're overwhelming likely to recover from it. Unfortunately it's probably going to be awhile before the rest of society realizes this. We will have caused so much self inflected pain by then and will have no real positive results to show for it.

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My question is, why can't we live our lives while also taking precautions? If we do what we can to limit the spread, there won't be any need for lockdowns. People won't budge on that at all, and I just don't understand.

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It's not compatible with human nature. Even In normal times we can't get everyone to act in their best interest or in the best interest of others. To think we can do so now is illogical.

The longer these restrictions are in place the more people will stop following them.

OlSarge92 said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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HotardAg07 said:

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None of that is contradicting what I've pointed out. I have repeatedly said that we are at "normal ICU capacity" and that surge capacity is available. I have posted what those numbers look like. I have also said that due to the rapid growing trend, we would be out of sustainable surge capacity in 12 days at this pace -- ACCORDING TO THE TEXAS MEDICAL CENTER, not the media, not a politician..

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"Stop moving the goal posts. You are claiming that this is a media driven hoax. I have gone way out of my way to post not just hospital data but actual ER doctor's quotes to show the contrary and you have ignored it all. This is not a media driven hoax."


I just gave you quotes showing my claim regarding the media has merit.

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You do understand all that you did is post your own media source and assumed that there's no way it could be a media driven hoax?

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You are telling me the quotes from real people are BS and a hoax?

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Are you telling him the hospital data and actual ER doctor quotes are BS and a hoax?

See how that works?

I said the media is driving a frenzy, I said nothing about his data, or people he referenced. I was told this wasn't a media driven frenzy/hoax, and I showed two quotes lending merit to my claim.

SoupNazi2001 said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Yeah, this is ALL just because of the media.

Abbott just sat down, spent 30 minutes watching FOX, 30 minutes watching CNN, and 30 minutes reading Internet media and made his decision.

I'm sure he has zero input and real numbers coming his way from professionals that aren't in the media.

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Are you saying the Houston Hospital Exec are wrong? Because clearly Abbott didn't listen to them, and instead shut down part of their business

If he has some special data, sure would be nice if he shared it instead of BS statements about 5K w/o details behind it.

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Perhaps he data and details isn't all that positive and he's trying to just institute these measures without going into the data that he has access to. It's possible the data that drove him to making these decisions just sucks and he's trying not to panic folks even further.

There's likely way more that goes in to this than most of us consider. Pretty positive Abbott and Lt Dan don't want to tank businesses any more than they absolutely have to.

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Do you really think that when the CEOs of all the major hospitals said there were no capacity issues. Maybe it's on them for not providing more detailed data to the Governor and the public but they basically stated that it is normal for their ICUs to run at 70% to 80% capacity and 70% of the ICU patients were non COVID patients. If I were them I would start putting out detailed data daily.

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I'm not sure we're getting the truth from CEO Marc Boom or the other CEO's. I think he(Boom) changed his tone because he and the other CEO's don't want elected surgeries suspended. Elected surgeries are big money makers for hospitals. This was an email he sent to employees of Friday.

"We appear to be nearing the tipping point," Dr. Marc Boom, head of the Houston Methodist hospital system, wrote in an email to employees Friday. "Should the number of new cases grow too rapidly, it will eventually challenge our ability to treat both COVID-19 and non-COVID 19 patients."

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/texas-hospital-icus-crowded-with-covid-19-patients-as-coronavirus-continues-to-spread/285-aad0788d-256e-4454-8e3f-87f9c7956680

agforlife97 said:

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culdeus said:

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So the goalpost move today is the makeup of the ICU is not covidey enough?

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Those ICUs are full of people that got put off from the last lockdown, which was apparently unnecessary (or at least too early). Houston hospitals are already pushing back in effect saying we have other really sick people we can't put off right now. The first lockdown created this situation.

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Is that a yes?

The part that frustrates me is we had 3 months to put a plan in place if ICU occupancy began increasing. What were Texas hospitals doing during this time other than furloughing their elective surgery staff?

If you listen to the Houston hospital CEO's presser yesterday, they did prepare and are ready with surge capacity. They said the "level of alarm in unwarranted." They also said keep being safe, wear masks, distance, etc. It's both. We have capacity and we need to be careful.

OlSarge92 said:

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HotardAg07 said:

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The hospital executives did not contradict Abbott when they said there was capacity. In Houston, "normal ICU capacity" has been met at 100%. They have excess "sustainable surge capacity" that can be used now. However, at the current growth of hospitalizations in Houston, that sustainable surge capacity will be exceeded in 12 days according to the TMC. Therefore, they are making action to try to avoid that scenario. Hospital executives are trying to project confidence in the medical systems and to not scare people away, but they are also the ones who signed the letter warning people that this is getting worse and that they should take precautions.

You are ignoring every single bit of evidence that does not align with your pre-conceived beliefs.

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Did the hospital execs tell Abbott to shut down elective surgery? Are you saying they can't manage themselves in the face of their data?

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The order allows for hospital discretion regarding elective procedures with this statement:

"....this prohibition shall not apply to any surgery or procedure that, if performed in accordance with the commonly accepted standard of clinical practice, would not deplete any hospital capacity needed to cope with the COVID-19 disaster."

So, yes, they can manage themselves, and that's what they're being allowed to do. Where did you get your information that said otherwise?

Social distancing on the Guadalupe.

eidetic78 said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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HotardAg07 said:

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The hospital executives did not contradict Abbott when they said there was capacity. In Houston, "normal ICU capacity" has been met at 100%. They have excess "sustainable surge capacity" that can be used now. However, at the current growth of hospitalizations in Houston, that sustainable surge capacity will be exceeded in 12 days according to the TMC. Therefore, they are making action to try to avoid that scenario. Hospital executives are trying to project confidence in the medical systems and to not scare people away, but they are also the ones who signed the letter warning people that this is getting worse and that they should take precautions.

You are ignoring every single bit of evidence that does not align with your pre-conceived beliefs.

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Did the hospital execs tell Abbott to shut down elective surgery? Are you saying they can't manage themselves in the face of their data?

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The order allows for hospital discretion regarding elective procedures with this statement:

"....this prohibition shall not apply to any surgery or procedure that, if performed in accordance with the commonly accepted standard of clinical practice, would not deplete any hospital capacity needed to cope with the COVID-19 disaster."

So, yes, they can manage themselves, and that's what they're being allowed to do. Where did you get your information that said otherwise?

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Then explain the purpose of the order, and yes I was aware of that part of it, and many pointed that out as well as me. The order makes no sense.

agforlife97 said:

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culdeus said:

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So the goalpost move today is the makeup of the ICU is not covidey enough?

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Those ICUs are full of people that got put off from the last lockdown, which was apparently unnecessary (or at least too early). Houston hospitals are already pushing back in effect saying we have other really sick people we can't put off right now. The first lockdown created this situation.

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The first lock down bought us the time to develop new therapeutics to make this virus less deadly and stock the hospitals with necessary PPE and vents.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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Eventually maybe people will decide when we open things up that you still need to behave intelligently. Given the general ignorance of most of our society, I'm less than hopeful.

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Terms like "general ignorance" and "selfishness" used by you throughout this thread are as much a part of the problem as anything. Maybe stop judging others and focus on what YOU can do and you are comfortable doing.

PJYoung said:

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OlSarge92 said:

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I said the media is driving a frenzy, I said nothing about his data, or people he referenced. I was told this wasn't a media driven frenzy/hoax, and I showed two quotes lending merit to my claim.

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And he told you the media has nothing to do with what he thinks because he doesn't watch it. He is getting his information from the doctors and hospitals.

How can you even still use the word hoax? Amazing.

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What's amazing is that the term hoax was used by Hotard, not me, I only referenced the term after he used it If you bother reading what i stated instead of trying to pile on like the rest, you will see that I continually refer to it as a media frenzy.

Since you didn't bother to read, here you go....amazing.....

" Stop moving the goal posts. You are claiming that this is a media driven hoax. I have gone way out of my way to post not just hospital data but actual ER doctor's quotes to show the contrary and you have ignored it all. This is not a media driven hoax.

I don't want another lock down, in fact i am sickened by the thought of it. That's why I want people to take the virus seriously and take the necessary precautions so that the government doesn't have to get involved. People claiming this is a media driven hoax are part of the problem, not the solution."


Edit - laughing as the blue star count goes up on above, yet I wasn't the one using the term hoax.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Eventually maybe people will decide when we open things up that you still need to behave intelligently. Given the general ignorance of most of our society, I'm less than hopeful.

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Terms like "general ignorance" and "selfishness" used by you throughout this thread are as much a part of the problem as anything. Maybe stop judging others and focus on what YOU can do and you are comfortable doing.

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I have 20yrs of life experience seeing just how society behaves. I'll call it how I see it.

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Then you must realize that expecting everyone to follow the recommendations is a fool's errand. Especially as they have already dragged on for months. The longer they are in place the less compliance there will be.

Might as well lean into the curve at this point. The lockdowns probably won't drastically lower the number of deaths. Whatever number deaths we do have will be of less overall impact to society than the lockdowns or business restrictions.

Yeah, for the most part I'm really finding myself not caring near as much. We live out in the country with our nearest neighbors over 200yds away on each side. So for our part, we can just do what we do.

I guess I should just reflect on why I care or don't care if the cities go to hell or not.

From a selfish standpoint, I suppose it would actually benefit us out here if the cities run into this thing stubbornly, max out hospitals on the way to their "herd immunity".

Player To Be Named Later said:

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Yeah, for the most part I'm really finding myself not caring near as much. We live out in the country with our nearest neighbors over 200yds away on each side. So for our part, we can just do what we do.

I guess I should just reflect on why I care or don't care if the cities go to hell or not.

From a selfish standpoint, I suppose it would actually benefit us out here if the cities run into this thing stubbornly, max out hospitals on the way to their "herd immunity".

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I live in downtown Houston. Not worried about the disease or hospital capacity. If we go over we'll ration care. It won't be the end of the world. Most people won't be directly impacted.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Eventually maybe people will decide when we open things up that you still need to behave intelligently. Given the general ignorance of most of our society, I'm less than hopeful.

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Terms like "general ignorance" and "selfishness" used by you throughout this thread are as much a part of the problem as anything. Maybe stop judging others and focus on what YOU can do and you are comfortable doing.

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I have 20yrs of life experience seeing just how society behaves. I'll call it how I see it.

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You're 20 year old?!?!

Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Eventually maybe people will decide when we open things up that you still need to behave intelligently. Given the general ignorance of most of our society, I'm less than hopeful.

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Terms like "general ignorance" and "selfishness" used by you throughout this thread are as much a part of the problem as anything. Maybe stop judging others and focus on what YOU can do and you are comfortable doing.

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I have 20yrs of life experience seeing just how society behaves. I'll call it how I see it.

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You're 20 year old?!?!

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Sometimes I feel that way..... and then my knees and back remind me that's not even remotely correct.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Eventually maybe people will decide when we open things up that you still need to behave intelligently. Given the general ignorance of most of our society, I'm less than hopeful.

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Terms like "general ignorance" and "selfishness" used by you throughout this thread are as much a part of the problem as anything. Maybe stop judging others and focus on what YOU can do and you are comfortable doing.

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I have 20yrs of life experience seeing just how society behaves. I'll call it how I see it.

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You're 20 year old?!?!

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Sometimes I feel that way..... and then my knees and back remind me that's not even remotely correct.

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Yup. I'm right there with ya!

eidetic78 said:

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jckrjr7 said:

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The part that frustrates me is we had 3 months to put a plan in place if ICU occupancy began increasing. What were Texas hospitals doing during this time other than furloughing their elective surgery staff?

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All those preparations were done. There are nearly 1000 extra ICU beds in the TMC now available and the temp stuff is being reconstructed at NRG.

Where did you hear otherwise?

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I live in Austin. I've heard of no such contingency plan here.

jckrjr7 said:

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eidetic78 said:

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jckrjr7 said:

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The part that frustrates me is we had 3 months to put a plan in place if ICU occupancy began increasing. What were Texas hospitals doing during this time other than furloughing their elective surgery staff?

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All those preparations were done. There are nearly 1000 extra ICU beds in the TMC now available and the temp stuff is being reconstructed at NRG.

Where did you hear otherwise?

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I live in Austin. I've heard of no such contingency plan here.

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There's at least one temp hospital that could be stood up accommodating 1500 covid patients. I used googled and that was the first several results.