I agree with you that it would be better to have open windows and doors at work. The AC seems like a good way spread Covid around a building. Unfortunately, a lot of office buildings don't have windows that open.
What's the Texags Forum 84 consesus on masks?
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Last: 5 yr ago by nortex97
The biggest cultural change it that it will be a long long time before I wake up feeling sick, eat a couple DayQuil, and trudge into the office.
I don't think I've taken a sick day in 10 years. That's just not going to fly anymore.
I don't think I've taken a sick day in 10 years. That's just not going to fly anymore.
So does distancingtysker said:
Masks dehumanize us. In a time when we should be empathizing with others, masks incline us to do the opposite.
for sure this. Forever going forward I will just work from the house. Not even bother with a sick day.amercer said:
The biggest cultural change it that it will be a long long time before I wake up feeling sick, eat a couple DayQuil, and trudge into the office.
I don't think I've taken a sick day in 10 years. That's just not going to fly anymore.
What better way to empathize with one's fellow man than potentially infecting them with a disease that they (or one of their loved ones) might not recover from.tysker said:
Masks dehumanize us. In a time when we should be empathizing with others, masks incline us to do the opposite.
you mean like avoiding people altogether because the anxiety of making someone sick is just too much? This isn't empathy, it is social control.Goose61 said:What better way to empathize with one's fellow man than potentially infecting them with a disease that they (or one of their loved ones) might not recover from.tysker said:
Masks dehumanize us. In a time when we should be empathizing with others, masks incline us to do the opposite.
dermdoc said:
I have also heard dentists are seeing more gum disease due to the masks.
Gum disease I understand, but someone needs to explain to me how wearing masks would increase strep. The skeptic in me says that the spike in strep is cause by an increase in testing as people are going to the doctor way more than any other time in the past.
They make my allergies worse.
Only wear them where mandated and really don't wear them correctly.
Seeing our kids have to wear them really disappoints me.
Only wear them where mandated and really don't wear them correctly.
Seeing our kids have to wear them really disappoints me.
I highly doubt kids didn't go to the doctor before for strep. High fever and very painful. I would think the increase would have to be either from masks or from lowered immune systems from kids not being together for so long.
amercer said:
The biggest cultural change it that it will be a long long time before I wake up feeling sick, eat a couple DayQuil, and trudge into the office.
I don't think I've taken a sick day in 10 years. That's just not going to fly anymore.
Only if employers change sick leave policies or trust employees to work from home when sick.
The reason people don't call in sick is due to limited sick leave, or sick leave being intertwined with PTO.
Mike Shaw - Class of '03
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
Masks have no positive impact on a society wide basis. The quality of masks used, the consistency of use, and the correctness with which they are worn can never equal a controlled environment where studies are conducted.
I wear a cloth mask to go to work or a store.
I had to meet with 2 witnesses in person today. Even though I stayed 8-10 feet away I wore an N95. I don't know what precautions they were taking so I was extra careful.
I had to meet with 2 witnesses in person today. Even though I stayed 8-10 feet away I wore an N95. I don't know what precautions they were taking so I was extra careful.
There is always a spike of strep in the fall when the carriers mingle with the non carriers. I have seen no evidence that mask use increases strep rates.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I understand what you're getting at but you could make the same argument for any communicable disease even those for which we already have vaccines. Some of us recall chicken pox parties even when some 'might never recover.' I think the good from community exposure that builds up herd and personal immunity can outweigh the costs. Only when you accept there will always be free riders in community health, can you start to protect yourself and your family properly.Goose61 said:What better way to empathize with one's fellow man than potentially infecting them with a disease that they (or one of their loved ones) might not recover from.tysker said:
Masks dehumanize us. In a time when we should be empathizing with others, masks incline us to do the opposite.
Masks are a terrible reminder of this blown out of proportion disease.
They're detrimental to mental health, especially the mental health of children. I have to tell mine to take the stupid things off when the exit the bus. They've become conditioned to them. It's disgusting.
They're detrimental to mental health, especially the mental health of children. I have to tell mine to take the stupid things off when the exit the bus. They've become conditioned to them. It's disgusting.
If you aren't contagious, your mask is functionally useless (you aren't spreading it, bit can still take it in through your eyes).
If you are contagious (and an asymptomatic mouth breather, an asymptomatic talker, or a coughing *******), then a properly worn mask redirects your breath; likely reducing the risk of spread to those around you.
So yes, in certain cases masks likely reduce spread to SOME degree; but I consider it to be one of the less effective mitigation tools available (and as others have pointed out, a false sense of security may actually produce a net negative impact).
Social impact, dehumanization, constitutionality, etc are all peripheral issues worthy of discussion, but whether they are a net benefit is a good question to lead with. It's hard to know when you add ACTUAL human behavior to the equation.
If you are contagious (and an asymptomatic mouth breather, an asymptomatic talker, or a coughing *******), then a properly worn mask redirects your breath; likely reducing the risk of spread to those around you.
So yes, in certain cases masks likely reduce spread to SOME degree; but I consider it to be one of the less effective mitigation tools available (and as others have pointed out, a false sense of security may actually produce a net negative impact).
Social impact, dehumanization, constitutionality, etc are all peripheral issues worthy of discussion, but whether they are a net benefit is a good question to lead with. It's hard to know when you add ACTUAL human behavior to the equation.
There is zero evidence of this. There are multiple studies however suggesting they make zero difference.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
This is false. There has been a lot of evidence. You are just avoiding it. The evidence suggests the mass adoption of masks reducing transmission. It's especially important for those that are pre-symptomatic.ORAggieFan said:There is zero evidence of this. There are multiple studies however suggesting they make zero difference.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
I'm reading through paper and footnotes from your first article (from April 10, 2020 btw) but it doesn't say that masks do work. Many are saying they might or could work. The results from the study listed in footnote 41 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/) reads:CDub06 said:This is false. There has been a lot of evidence. You are just avoiding it. The evidence suggests the mass adoption of masks reducing transmission. It's especially important for those that are pre-symptomatic.ORAggieFan said:There is zero evidence of this. There are multiple studies however suggesting they make zero difference.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
Quote:
Results
The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.
Conclusions
This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.
None of these are RCT study. Meanwhile, there are many RCT done showing masks make no difference.CDub06 said:This is false. There has been a lot of evidence. You are just avoiding it. The evidence suggests the mass adoption of masks reducing transmission. It's especially important for those that are pre-symptomatic.ORAggieFan said:There is zero evidence of this. There are multiple studies however suggesting they make zero difference.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy
Your second link does show a masks "work" by a whole 2%.. back in April and May... They didn't slow transmission, just slowed growth of transmission.CDub06 said:This is false. There has been a lot of evidence. You are just avoiding it. The evidence suggests the mass adoption of masks reducing transmission. It's especially important for those that are pre-symptomatic.ORAggieFan said:There is zero evidence of this. There are multiple studies however suggesting they make zero difference.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
And its unclear if other mandates ("social distancing measures, state reopening measures, employee face mask use mandates, and county-specific time trends; and allowed time trends to vary by sociodemographic indicators") could have also been influential. They say masks were controlled for and masks were more more significant than other measures but it's unclear to me how they came to control for the public response to the shelter in place and shutdown orders. The orders themselves are one thing but how well the public complied is something else entirely. Considering how much backfilling of data we've had, I wonder if they ran the same regression would they get similar results today. The Mask Wearing data set has not been updated sine its July survey (https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data).Quote:
The research design is an event study examining changes in the daily county-level COVID-19 growth rates between March 31 and May 22, 2020. Mandating face mask use in public is associated with a decline in the daily COVID-19 growth rate by 0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points
I love this tidbit also:
We know now that certain cloth masks are not encouraged... Funny how far we're come since mid-June.Quote:
The face mask defined in these orders primarily refers to cloth face coverings or nonmedical masks. The state orders strongly discourage the use of any medical or surgical masks and N-95 respirators, which should be reserved for health care workers and first responders.
I believe in wearing masks when needed....at the store, when I'm around people other than family, going through the drive thru. I don't feel comfortable enough eating inside a restaurant, although I have eaten on the patio of a few places, with no one else nearby.
I did fly on a plane to Florida and Disney World is the one place I felt ok about visiting. On the flight, we wore N95 masks since we were inside an enclosed space. At WDW, we wore masks everywhere except in our room...like required. We mainly ate most meals in place with outside dining or in our room....although we did make a few exceptions when the location was empty of other guests. At the parks, they had good social distancing practices and for the most part felt safe, except for a few instances of people not wearing their masks correctly, in which we gave them extra space between us and them.
I did fly on a plane to Florida and Disney World is the one place I felt ok about visiting. On the flight, we wore N95 masks since we were inside an enclosed space. At WDW, we wore masks everywhere except in our room...like required. We mainly ate most meals in place with outside dining or in our room....although we did make a few exceptions when the location was empty of other guests. At the parks, they had good social distancing practices and for the most part felt safe, except for a few instances of people not wearing their masks correctly, in which we gave them extra space between us and them.
They can't hurt, only a mild annoyance. I wear one in public and don't see it as a big deal. Does it protect me from others around me or vise versa, maybe a little. Who cares? It's no big deal.
This response always cracks me up. Even if there is evidence (an article) that says that masks DO help, there is one out there that says they don't make a difference. But because some doctor says they work, people just adopt what is said.BBQ4Me said:
Masks mitigate spread. Obviously it depends if people wear the properly. Hence you have some people wearing then with their nose hanging out and then complain about them not working...
If it is plausible that scenario A exists (they work), you must also be willing to admit that scenario B could exist as well (they make no difference).
I wear one because I'm required to and wear it as little as possible. I disagree about them not hurting. I observe people with them on a lot. People without question adjust them regularly. While I was eating last week I counted one guy adjusting his at the nose 10 times in 90 seconds. I believe that improper care and handling make things worse. I especially think it's awful for kids to be wearing them and without question increases the number of times they touch their mouth and nose in a typical day.TexjbA&M said:
They can't hurt, only a mild annoyance. I wear one in public and don't see it as a big deal. Does it protect me from others around me or vise versa, maybe a little. Who cares? It's no big deal.
I think no one is really asking the right question. Is it actually good if they prevent the spread of CV-19? I think the answer to that is - only while hospital systems are on the verge of being or are overwhelmed. Otherwise, it's good for people to be exposed and get it out of the way. That's the only way we're going to get past this, and it looks like we're almost there. Hopefully pretty soon all this mask business will be over, and we can go back to being America.
Edit: I'm talking about society wide. For people over 70, obviously yes it's a good thing.
Edit: I'm talking about society wide. For people over 70, obviously yes it's a good thing.
agforlife97 said:
I think no one is really asking the right question. Is it actually good if they prevent the spread of CV-19? I think the answer to that is - only while hospital systems are on the verge of being or are overwhelmed. Otherwise, it's good for people to be exposed and get it out of the way. That's the only way we're going to get past this, and it looks like we're almost there. Hopefully pretty soon all this mask business will be over, and we can go back to being America.
Edit: I'm talking about society wide. For people over 70, obviously yes it's a good thing.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I can also only go by my experiences. We have had graduation parties with over hundred people multiple times. Been to three weddings locally and out of state. Traveled across the west for three weeks and not had one case. Mask were not worn by us or others. Is this virus real obviously yes but we chose freedom over fear.
agforlife97 said:
I think no one is really asking the right question. Is it actually good if they prevent the spread of CV-19? I think the answer to that is - only while hospital systems are on the verge of being or are overwhelmed. Otherwise, it's good for people to be exposed and get it out of the way. That's the only way we're going to get past this, and it looks like we're almost there. Hopefully pretty soon all this mask business will be over, and we can go back to being America.
Edit: I'm talking about society wide. For people over 70, obviously yes it's a good thing.
I have been asking this question since the beginning on this board. Even if mask "work" what are we working towards. Delaying the inevitable.
Safety charade to make people feel like they are doing something.
Why not? They are uncomfortable. They make communication much more difficult: voice is muffled, can't see lips, can't see expression. So hot! Makes me sweat much more holding heat in. Can't breathe as easily--i have a deviated septum and can tell that I get less oxygen if I wear for very long. More pimples since mask wearing.
Masks were to be worn when unable to distance. Then they require them all of the time. They are pointles if distanced. 98 or 99 percent of the people don't have the active virus. If you don't have the virus, you are protecting no one.
Improper use. Dirty masks are reused. Layer of cloth does little. They are not handled carefully putting on and taking off. Germ collectors.
Why not? They are uncomfortable. They make communication much more difficult: voice is muffled, can't see lips, can't see expression. So hot! Makes me sweat much more holding heat in. Can't breathe as easily--i have a deviated septum and can tell that I get less oxygen if I wear for very long. More pimples since mask wearing.
Masks were to be worn when unable to distance. Then they require them all of the time. They are pointles if distanced. 98 or 99 percent of the people don't have the active virus. If you don't have the virus, you are protecting no one.
Improper use. Dirty masks are reused. Layer of cloth does little. They are not handled carefully putting on and taking off. Germ collectors.
Jim VanBeek '85, '99
TexjbA&M said:
They can't hurt, only a mild annoyance. I wear one in public and don't see it as a big deal. Does it protect me from others around me or vise versa, maybe a little. Who cares? It's no big deal.
When do you decide that last little encroachment on your freedom is a big deal? Now they say when you can leave home, when you can work, whether your job is important, when you can gather, when you can practice your religion, how far you are from people, and what you wear on your face.
We used to have restrictions on sick people to to stop the spread of things. Now they restrict healthy people. And all of this for a virus that isn't particularly deadly except for elderly and people with comorbitities. We should protect the vulnerable, not restrict everybody!
Jim VanBeek '85, '99
Here is a summary analysis paper of 6 studies as to the impact of masks for preventing the spread of ILI/flu/respiratory viruses. Spoiler; it doesn't work at all.
Quote:
Conclusion Regarding That Masks Do Not Work
No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions.
Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public (more on this below).
Furthermore, if there were any benefit to wearing a mask, because of the blocking power against droplets and aerosol particles, then there should be more benefit from wearing a respirator (N95) compared to a surgical mask, yet several large meta-analyses, and all the RCT, prove that there is no such relative benefit.
Masks and respirators do not work.
Precautionary Principle Turned on Its Head with Masks
In light of the medical research, therefore, it is difficult to understand why public-health authorities are not consistently adamant about this established scientific result, since the distributed psychological, economic, and environmental harm from a broad recommendation to wear masks is significant, not to mention the unknown potential harm from concentration and distribution of pathogens on and from used masks. In this case, public authorities would be turning the precautionary principle on its head (see below).
Physics and Biology of Viral Respiratory Disease and of Why Masks Do Not Work
In order to understand why masks cannot possibly work, we must review established knowledge about viral respiratory diseases, the mechanism of seasonal variation of excess deaths from pneumonia and influenza, the aerosol mechanism of infectious disease transmission, the physics and chemistry of aerosols, and the mechanism of the so-called minimum-infective-dose.
In addition to pandemics that can occur anytime, in the temperate latitudes there is an extra burden of respiratory-disease mortality that is seasonal, and that is caused by viruses. For example, see the review of influenza by Paules and Subbarao (2017). This has been known for a long time, and the seasonal pattern is exceedingly regular. (Publisher's note: All links to source references to studies here forward are found at the end of this article.)
Especially with kids under 10-12ish I am finding they appear to be worthless both with COVID as well as other common viral infections and strep. We are still seeing plenty of COVID negative ill young kids which is the same as any other fall.
In high risk situtations (doc visits, public transportation, large volume of people in a closed spaced for > 15 minutes) they are likely helpful. I do think far too many people think they are a mystic talisman that will guarentee they cannot get sick with anything.
In high risk situtations (doc visits, public transportation, large volume of people in a closed spaced for > 15 minutes) they are likely helpful. I do think far too many people think they are a mystic talisman that will guarentee they cannot get sick with anything.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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