I don't disagree with a single thing you've said, other than me potentially being one of the ones conflating an exaggerated performance/personality for character development, as I'm with you 100% that he had none in his introduction (or even really much after). I'm simply saying that they weren't TRYING to give him any character development, because he wasn't meant to be an on-going character in the first place. Otherwise, the whole thing was handled in the absolute worst fashion, and they never should have even been in the position of filming something, not yet knowing what the bigger was.
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TCTTS said:
It's insane to me that they didn't take a beat after Endgame to figure out even the broad strokes of the next stage. They introduced Kang on a whim in Loki, and based on that single performance, in only one episode, decided on the fly to make him the big bad of the entire MCU going forward. That absolutely blows my mind. Pre-Endgame and post-Endgame really does feel like two completely different companies were in charge.
I agree with this point. But I think two additional factors played into this.
1. I think Black Panther was suppose to be the next "Iron Man" core character building/rebuilding the Avengers. So losing Chadwick hurt a lot of their plans. They no longer had a character to bring the Avengers back together and rebuild.
2. Acquiring FOX and getting F4/X-Men probably had a big effect on planning. You knew you had years until you could spin that up, but you had a lot of water to tread to get there. Plus you had to draft a story that allowed the Avengers End Game set of movies and the future X-Men/F4 movies live in some kind of harmony.
Then COVID/Strikes/Fan Fatigue all played a part.
I didn't know this but I had a theory about why Majors/Kang was going to be the next major villain. Hiddleston was the MCU scene stealer, he could go toe to toe with anyone, and make the scene his. Then in comes Majors at the end of Loki season one and steals the show from Hiddleston. They're not going to find many actors capable of doing that so they went all in. I'm just so tired of the time travel/multiverse/variants in the MCU that I hope they can put a stop to it all. The one exception being Deadpool 3 where I don't care what they do, I'm into it.TCTTS said:
To be fair, though, He Who Remains wasn't written/introduced to necessarily be a character going forward. He was there strictly to serve Loki's and Sylvia's character development, by presenting them with a choice that would define their respective character arcs. That, and when exposition truly works is when it causes action, which is exactly what happened there at the end of the finale.
It wasn't until everyone was on set, watching Majors do his thing, that the powers that be realized they might have something. Which was then confirmed when the audience reacted equally as positive to his performance, and thus his status as the next big bad was solidified.
Otherwise, there's probably no way they would have debuted the new big bad that way.
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I'm not defending Marvel. They have really lost their way character-wise and the MCU storyline is a total confusing mess. BUT… I think they've had a loose plan for this phase that definitely included Majors since he was cast. He was cast as Kang in Ant-Man 3 first, and the buzz there was that he was being built up as the next big bad of the MCU. Covid delayed and maybe rearranged how he was introduced but the plan was always that from what I recall.
TCTTS said:
It's insane to me that they didn't take a beat after Endgame to figure out even the broad strokes of the next stage. They introduced Kang on a whim in Loki, and based on that single performance, in only one episode, decided on the fly to make him the big bad of the entire MCU going forward. That absolutely blows my mind. Pre-Endgame and post-Endgame really does feel like two completely different companies were in charge.
When every product you release is effortlessly making billions across the globe, not many companies have the fortitude to stop doing so, even without a great plan going forward.
veryfuller said:
I'm not defending Marvel. They have really lost their way character-wise and the MCU storyline is a total confusing mess. BUT… I think they've had a loose plan for this phase that definitely included Majors since he was cast. He was cast as Kang in Ant-Man 3 first, and the buzz there was that he was being built up as the next big bad of the MCU. Covid delayed and maybe rearranged how he was introduced but the plan was always that from what I recall.
You're mostly right, and I was party wrong...
- Majors was first announced as Kang in Quantumania in September 2020.
- However, the director for Quantumania + the two showrunners for Loki all worked together to cast him, all at the same time.
- Majors shot his Loki episode as He Who Remains in December 2020.
- Majors shot Quantumania as Kang from July 2021 to November 2021.
- Majors' episode as He Who Remains aired on July 14, 2021.
- Quantumania was released on February 6, 2023.
The main thing I got wrong, as I understand it, is that after they filmed Majors' Loki episode at the end of 2020, it was at that point, after seeing him action, that they decided to make him the big bad of the MCU beyond just Quantumania.
That said, surprisingly, Covid seemingly didn't affect these plans, seeing as Loki season one was written in 2019, and actually started filming in February 2020, with production shutting down soon after due to Covid. So, somehow, the plan all along really was to introduce him in Loki, exactly how they ended up doing it, knowing he was going to be Kang in Quantumania, but not knowing he was going to be the overall new big bad.
The Porkchop Express said:TCTTS said:
It's insane to me that they didn't take a beat after Endgame to figure out even the broad strokes of the next stage. They introduced Kang on a whim in Loki, and based on that single performance, in only one episode, decided on the fly to make him the big bad of the entire MCU going forward. That absolutely blows my mind. Pre-Endgame and post-Endgame really does feel like two completely different companies were in charge.
When every product you release is effortlessly making billions across the globe, not many companies have the fortitude to stop doing so, even without a great plan going forward.
Good point.
They were going to repeat the end battle of Endgame. The heroes would assemble and all their long lost friends were going to emerge from different branches of the timeline to join the fight agaisnt an army headed by Victor Timely and foot soliders who are all Kangs.
I generally agree with you, though I haven't seen anyone citing him as great character development. You can have an impactful or interesting character who isn't well developed.C@LAg said:
that's kind of my point.
he served entirely as exposition in the service of other characters. we have/had no emotional investment in him to carry any momentum forward.
To me it seems some (but not all) of you are conflating an exaggerated performance/personality for character development,, when we neither saw nor experience any such development.
HWR is no Keyser Soze trying to pull a Verbal Kint His character served its purpose, dies, and the story should have moved in.
it is a shame Marvel ham-fistedly tried to latch onto such a performance to drive things going forward.
with that said. I will bow out of this particular discussion, as I have said my piece as have others, and we will just be talking to each other in circles.
This. I thought the performance of HWR in Loki was exceptional, but it was not great character development. The performance left me wanting more of the interesting character Majors played, but it was because I was hoping to actually see the character development. Unfortunately, we never got that.fig96 said:I generally agree with you, though I haven't seen anyone citing him as great character development. You can have an impactful or interesting character who isn't well developed.C@LAg said:
that's kind of my point.
he served entirely as exposition in the service of other characters. we have/had no emotional investment in him to carry any momentum forward.
To me it seems some (but not all) of you are conflating an exaggerated performance/personality for character development,, when we neither saw nor experience any such development.
HWR is no Keyser Soze trying to pull a Verbal Kint His character served its purpose, dies, and the story should have moved in.
it is a shame Marvel ham-fistedly tried to latch onto such a performance to drive things going forward.
with that said. I will bow out of this particular discussion, as I have said my piece as have others, and we will just be talking to each other in circles.
I liked Majors a lot in Loki, and even thought he was good in Ant-Man.
I think Marvel might just decide it doesn't actually need one throughput storyline and should break its heroes up into who interacts with whom and leave it there.
the initial phases culminating in Endgame was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that they don't need to force another version. It will either feel like a retread or you're going to have to come up with a lot of convoluted reasons to have Earth be super important for the whole universe.
Having multiple timelines is fun for me, because I'm a cameo guy. I love the Illumnati in DS2 and love the other Spidermen in No Way Home, but neither of those movies did anything plot wise except have Peter Parker start life all over again. But we know that's just temporary as well because they're not going to stop having Zendaya in those movies.
But as I've said before, everything feels like a missed opportunity. They should have leaned in hard to Scarlet Witch being a real villain and have her not be redeemed. Her powers and the quality of the actress she is really could have started driving the bus into the next phase.
The FF and the X-men should operate free of the other heroes until they decide what the next big move is.
They need to dial up the Young Avengers as either a series or a show to embrace the popularity of Kate Bishop and ms Marvel. Have Sam Jackson babysit them and then something crazy happens and they have to save the day.
They need to get my boy Shang Chi back out there. You lost Chadwick, but this guy is funny, charismatic, an incredible stunt fighter, and is rising more after being really funny in Barbie. Give him a chance to be part of a new core along with Captain America 2.0, Bucky, Strange, and Spider-Man. That's a fun group.
I think Marvel might just decide it doesn't actually need one throughput storyline and should break its heroes up into who interacts with whom and leave it there.
the initial phases culminating in Endgame was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that they don't need to force another version. It will either feel like a retread or you're going to have to come up with a lot of convoluted reasons to have Earth be super important for the whole universe.
Having multiple timelines is fun for me, because I'm a cameo guy. I love the Illumnati in DS2 and love the other Spidermen in No Way Home, but neither of those movies did anything plot wise except have Peter Parker start life all over again. But we know that's just temporary as well because they're not going to stop having Zendaya in those movies.
But as I've said before, everything feels like a missed opportunity. They should have leaned in hard to Scarlet Witch being a real villain and have her not be redeemed. Her powers and the quality of the actress she is really could have started driving the bus into the next phase.
The FF and the X-men should operate free of the other heroes until they decide what the next big move is.
They need to dial up the Young Avengers as either a series or a show to embrace the popularity of Kate Bishop and ms Marvel. Have Sam Jackson babysit them and then something crazy happens and they have to save the day.
They need to get my boy Shang Chi back out there. You lost Chadwick, but this guy is funny, charismatic, an incredible stunt fighter, and is rising more after being really funny in Barbie. Give him a chance to be part of a new core along with Captain America 2.0, Bucky, Strange, and Spider-Man. That's a fun group.
I'll be honest, I enjoyed the Shang-Chi movie, but the character itself didn't do much for me. He wasn't bad, just kind of bland and forgettable.
Then again, maybe it's unfair to compare him to the likes of RDJ and the Chrises.
Then again, maybe it's unfair to compare him to the likes of RDJ and the Chrises.
3 edits? did TC hack your account?Brian Earl Spilner said:
I'll be honest, I enjoyed the Shang-Chi movie, but the character itself didn't do much for me. He wasn't bad, just kind of bland and forgettable.
Then again, maybe it's unfair to compare him to the likes of RDJ and the Chrises.
Thor was bland as heck at first too.
I'd love to see Shang Chi get some development. Feels odd that we haven't seen him again yet.
I'd love to see Shang Chi get some development. Feels odd that we haven't seen him again yet.
Thanks and gig'em
Valid point.
I think Shang-Chi doesn't have much character because Shang-Chi (the comic book character) doesn't have much history with anyone. He's Iron Fist without the powers, cool costume, and iconic relationships with Luke Cage, Daredevil, the New Avengers, etc.
Now that's not to say they can't fix that, but comics Shang-Chi doesn't really have a definitive personality except for maybe that he's zen and skilled. They're going to have to come up with something new. And find an organic way to get him talking with, and maybe conflicting with, the current crop of heroes.
I kinda hated the Shang-Chi post-credits because having him walk through a portal to meet Hulk and Captain Marvel was inorganic, and I still think they don't have any plan for who created the rings (unless they retcon it into being Galactus or something). And I have no clue what SC does until his next movie - go back to parking cars maybe? Or fight crime..? It's like they had no plan, and that bothers me.
Now that's not to say they can't fix that, but comics Shang-Chi doesn't really have a definitive personality except for maybe that he's zen and skilled. They're going to have to come up with something new. And find an organic way to get him talking with, and maybe conflicting with, the current crop of heroes.
I kinda hated the Shang-Chi post-credits because having him walk through a portal to meet Hulk and Captain Marvel was inorganic, and I still think they don't have any plan for who created the rings (unless they retcon it into being Galactus or something). And I have no clue what SC does until his next movie - go back to parking cars maybe? Or fight crime..? It's like they had no plan, and that bothers me.
I guess I'm one of the few who didn't love Majors as HWR in Loki S1. I actually liked his character in Quantumania better...up until the end of the movie. He was pretty menacing and conniving until then.
However, once the good guys revolted I couldn't reconcile how this person could logistically kill entire worlds with his laser bracelets and then he lost to a bunch of LOTR ants.
However, once the good guys revolted I couldn't reconcile how this person could logistically kill entire worlds with his laser bracelets and then he lost to a bunch of LOTR ants.
Incinerates the soldiers but uses concussive blasts on the heroes. Very lame.
I'm not going to see the movie and this was as good as I was expecting
I liked Shang Chi, a lot. I wonder if having to share screen time with Awkwafina hampered the flavor of Shang Chi's character. They were pretty fun, together, but she's a lot with which to contend.
I think the question about what he's doing now is valid. How long ago did that come out, and how much has happened in the MCU since then? Didn't Wong pull him out the bar before Wanda went crazy?
I think the question about what he's doing now is valid. How long ago did that come out, and how much has happened in the MCU since then? Didn't Wong pull him out the bar before Wanda went crazy?
Was eagerly anticipating this!!
So good.
A little three shadowing.
You mean foreshadowing...
I don't think it's up to that level
You mean foreshadowing...
I don't think it's up to that level
"getting a giant P on you is tight"
Sweet mercy
Sweet mercy
An expositional dump…
Like on a giant canvas?
Like on a giant canvas?
That's hilarious! That was my first time seeing Pitch Meeting.
MooreTrucker said:
That's hilarious! That was my first time seeing Pitch Meeting.
Watch the one for Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom and Face-off next!
"Female-led, not Miss-leading"
Face-Off? Nic Cage, John Travolta Face-Off???? I'm in!
Just watch them all. It will be tight. Zero effort involved, will be super easy, barely an inconvenience.
"How do the Peruvian Amazon spider people ship her back to New York City?"
"Amazon Prime? I don't care."
"Amazon Prime? I don't care."
MooreTrucker said:
Face-Off? Nic Cage, John Travolta Face-Off???? I'm in!
Thread related because Cage is Ghost rider
Good round-up of where Marvel is at right now. No new news, really. But remapping is important.
— David Poland (@DavidPoland) February 24, 2024
Marvel Retools As It Preps Fantastic Four, Avengers Movies https://t.co/gW1CzWSu2a
interesting conversation (ALL SPECULATION) around the complex "damaged relationship" between marvel and sony and what could possibly happen after madam web is another dumpster fire from sony in recent years since spiderman got permission to join the MCU....
also i didn't know how that relationship came to be as i was completely separated from these films when the MCU started so some of this was new to me....
but an interesting conversation to listen to if you have the time.
again....all speculation on what it could look like if it did happen....this is Ryan at Screen Crush so they aren't coming out saying it'll happen but they just wanted to speculate on what it could look like and under what possible terms marvel could come after sony on and he has a lawyer come on to discuss....
also i didn't know how that relationship came to be as i was completely separated from these films when the MCU started so some of this was new to me....
but an interesting conversation to listen to if you have the time.
again....all speculation on what it could look like if it did happen....this is Ryan at Screen Crush so they aren't coming out saying it'll happen but they just wanted to speculate on what it could look like and under what possible terms marvel could come after sony on and he has a lawyer come on to discuss....
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