Lol maybe 5 years ago Patty had leverage.

Her character arc, as it stands, is badass but fish out of water, to heartbroken recluse, to badass warrior princess.

Which sounds mostly fine, but the badass warrior princess is what we saw first in BvS. It is a big jump to go from WW1984's Wonder Woman to BvS Wonder Woman. I actually prefer the BvS/ZSJL characterization more anyways.

TCTTS said:

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What a sh*t show. I'm sorry, but writing and directing one of the worst superhero movies ever made should be a pretty big indicator that your vision isn't unimpeachable. It sure as hell shouldn't give you this level of assuredness, to the point of not even listening to at least four established and proven executives all telling you your vision's not working…

Exclusive details from ⁦⁦@elmayimbe⁩: What Really Happened to Wonder Woman 3: Patty Jenkins Walked Off https://t.co/7KgykNtobM

— Sharon Waxman (@sharonwaxman) December 8, 2022

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I saw another post talking about "the patriarchy" and how both Gunn and Jenkins had superhero projects that bombed but one gets put in charge of DC and one gets their movie canceled.

And I was like I think only one of them has directed another billion dollar series of superhero movies…

Wow, what a dumb argument. Gunn's movie bombed because no one was interested in another Suicide Squad movie, while Jenkins' bombed because it was truly horrible. Legitimately on the verge of unwatchable. There's a huge difference. At least The Suicide Squad is a solid, enjoyable, relatively fun and funny movie. That, and yeah, Gunn's track record is miles longer than Jenkins'.

For sure, Suicide Squad had a clear vision and tone and WW1984 was perhaps the most jumbled mess of a tentpole I've ever seen.

Don’t twist my words: I am not blaming Snyder. But regardless of how you feel about him, his films, WB, the DCEU, etc., I feel like it’s impossible to overstate how much money has been left on the table, how many heads have rolled, how badly the brand has been damaged since 2013.

— Johnny Sobczak (@JohnnySobczak) August 2, 2022

And most that were interested in TSS (like me) watched it on HBO Max on release date. Easy decision, especially with COVID still affecting things like theater-going.

What's ironic is that Christopher Nolan - the once golden child of WB - is 100% responsible for hiring Snyder in the first place. David Goyer, the co-writer of The Dark Knight trilogy, came up with the idea for Man of Steel during days-long hiatus from writing TDKR, when they couldn't figure out a certain plot point, so they took a break to clear their heads and refresh. During that hiatus, the idea for MoS came to Goyer, and when he and Nolan regrouped, Nolan asked if he had solved their TDKR issue, Goyer said no, but that he did come up with a take on Superman. He pitched it to Nolan, Nolan liked it so much he offered to executive produce, immediately called up the head of WB, they pitched him the idea over the phone, and basically had a greenlit movie that afternoon. Nolan and Goyer then interviewed numerous directors, finally settling on/recommending Snyder to WB.

AgfromHOU said:

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And most that were interested in TSS (like me) watched it on HBO Max on release date. Easy decision, especially with COVID still affecting things like theater-going.

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Yep, same.

The cancelled Michael Keaton BATMAN movie was reportedly going to be a live-action BATMAN BEYOND

(via @elmayimbe) pic.twitter.com/H3MS8AWAuR

— MovieRankings.net (@LightsCameraPod) December 9, 2022

Did we know this??

Sex Panther said:

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The cancelled Michael Keaton BATMAN movie was reportedly going to be a live-action BATMAN BEYOND

(via @elmayimbe) pic.twitter.com/H3MS8AWAuR

— MovieRankings.net (@LightsCameraPod) December 9, 2022

Did we know this??

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Noooooooooooo.

Quote:

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or seeing the mantles passed on to DC's legacy heroes (which are sometimes even better than the originals).

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Who are the "legacy heroes" and who are the "originals" you mention here?

It's hard for people who have been successful to remember they're just as fallible as the rest of us.

It's also common for someone who has one big hit to forget how much help they got in making that hit. They start to think all the best parts were their ideas, they don't really need editors or advisers weighing in. They had that one hit! Their vision is unimpeachable. And then they follow it with a flop where they just should have listened to feedback from others. It's why sequels often let us down.

Sex Panther said:

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The cancelled Michael Keaton BATMAN movie was reportedly going to be a live-action BATMAN BEYOND

(via @elmayimbe) pic.twitter.com/H3MS8AWAuR

— MovieRankings.net (@LightsCameraPod) December 9, 2022

Did we know this??

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I thought Keaton was in the cancelled batgirl movie?

MooreTrucker said:

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Quote:

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or seeing the mantles passed on to DC's legacy heroes (which are sometimes even better than the originals).

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Who are the "legacy heroes" and who are the "originals" you mention here?

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Wally West (legacy), from Barry Allen (who's technically a legacy of Jay Garrick)

Jessica Cruz or Kyle Rayner (legacy) from any previous human Green Lantern

Courtney Whitmore Stargirl (legacy) from Starman

Any of the Robins after Jason Todd (who sucks)

Dick Grayson was a great Batman, although I do prefer him as Nightwing, or even Terry McGinnis as Batman Beyond

The Titans can be, and often are, more interesting than the Justice League

The newer JSA vs the originals

Even Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle is better than Ted Kord (who I really like)

Just to make a few I think are better (or a case can be made in that direction) than the original hero.

I legit love this guy...

So. As for the story yesterday in the Hollywood Reporter, some of it is true, some of it is half-true, some of it is not true, & some of it we haven’t decided yet whether it’s true or not.

— James Gunn (@JamesGunn) December 8, 2022

Gunn's whole thread is on the previous page

Ah, I see. I'm old and most of those are newer than the superheroes I grew up with. I've never been much into the animated stuff or really anything since the 80's or so, except the Titans TV show which I like a lot.

So this is why I really gravitate toward the original JLA and "human" GLs (I don't even recognize the names you mentioned), and the Golden Age JSA.

My bad, thought this was a newer tweet.

WW84 was truly horrible but if it wasn't released at Covid Christmas, America's mass audiences probably would have still delivered it $250-$300 million at the box office and it wouldn't have gotten this skewered. Really hope they keep Gal Gadot in the role, she's tremendous.

The inherent problems will continue to exist for DC that are tough to overcome, namely.

1) Superman, and to a lesser extent Wonder Woman and Green Lantern, are so powerful that you need really powerful villains to challenge them in a movie. For Superman and GL that probably results in something not of Earth, which makes for a lot of CGI but not so much believability.

2) If you are building towards some sort of team up finale in the film world, you have to be a master surgeon to make it all come together, because when you have the like of Superman, it's hard to have a mission where he coudn't just do everything if he had to. Or if you have to lay in the old "Superman is weakened / dead, so the rest of the team has to step up until he gets here" plot line. They did that in JL and BvS. You start getting into Professor X territory from the original X-series. He's the most powerful of any of them, so in the first movie he's in a coma from poison, then captured and trapped in a dream world in the second, and then killed in the third one.
It's what made Marvel so great in Phases 1-3, none of them were strong enough to take on Thanos and his army alone and accomplish all the moving parts, it hard to be a team effort.

3) How many versions of your heroes are you going to have if you want your successful standalones and your team up movie as well. Is there going to be a Justice League movie 8 years from now where Pattison's Batman and Zach Levi's Shazam are on the screen together? I admit I would find that hilarious, but it would be really weird.

4) In the last 6 years, we've seen less than impressive versions of Darkseid, Luthor, and Steppenwolf, do you re-use any of them or go with the obvious big bad of Brainiac going forward?

5) Will Martin Short accept playing a CGI head on a tiny body in order to be ast as Mr. Mtyzlplyk?

What I really want to see is a Blue & Gold movie made by James Gunn.

Blue is Ted Kord Blue Beetle (not the one from the upcoming movie) and Gold is Booster Gold. It could be a super funny buddy cop movie that I think fits Gunn's humor style. Kord is a tech CEO and is similar to Nite Owl from Watchmen (who is a pastiche of Ted Kord) with no powers but has a cool flying vehicle. Booster is a security guard from the future who gets ahold of a Legion of Superheroes flight ring and goes into the past with hopes of becoming a famous superhero (he even sells ads to put on his suit, a la the PGA tour or pro soccer jersey ads).

They actually almost made this happen with Zac Braff as Ted Kord and Donald Faison as Booster Gold on Legends of Tomorrow.

I watched Black Adam last night. It was fairly entertaining but I'm glad Gunn is killing this universe. In Black Adam, we somehow have a separate Justice Society apparently operating for years led by Fate and Hawkman and puppeteered by Waller...the latter of whom I can't freaking stand. And she somehow now has the cache to be able to call on Superman? Wasn't she basically a bad guy running black ops, shady crap?

Just completely out of the blue with no connectivity whatsoever to any other DC property. Maddening disconnects with this universe. Hawkman was cool to see although I wasn't a huge fan of the casting for him. I don't know much about Fate other than he seems to be a Dr. Strange analogue.

At this point, I think you keep Cavill, Gadot, Rock, and Momoa, with that priority if you are forced to do that, and completely reboot everything around them. And I guess keep Pattinson as Batman. I'm indifferent to him.

Also I went ahead and watched Man of Steel again last night after watching Black Adam. Love that film. I can't believe its been 10 years since that came out now. WTF.

Fate came way before Strange, and has the Lord of Order, Nabu, in control, whereas Strange has full control over himself.

Peacemaker and Black Adam both seemed to exist in a world where heroes existed long before Superman, which is strange because in Man of Steel they make it seem like he's the first hero (but do suddenly show Batman and Wonder Woman existed before that in the very next movie).

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At this point, I think you keep Cavill, Gadot, Rock, and Momoa, with that priority if you are forced to do that, and completely reboot everything around them. And I guess keep Pattinson as Batman. I'm indifferent to him.

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I don't want The Batman films to come within a country mile of the rest of the DCU. Gunn can manage every other character and film, just let The Batman film universe go untainted by the rest of the DCU.

Quote:

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1) Superman, and to a lesser extent Wonder Woman and Green Lantern, are so powerful that you need really powerful villains to challenge them in a movie. For Superman and GL that probably results in something not of Earth, which makes for a lot of CGI but not so much believability.

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How are such things handled in the comic books that go back decades and still going?

#5 would be AWESOME!

MooreTrucker said:

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Quote:

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1) Superman, and to a lesser extent Wonder Woman and Green Lantern, are so powerful that you need really powerful villains to challenge them in a movie. For Superman and GL that probably results in something not of Earth, which makes for a lot of CGI but not so much believability.

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How are such things handled in the comic books that go back decades and still going?

#5 would be AWESOME!

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1. They reboot story lines and start over.
2. Superman is somewhat confounded by magic.

Even more #DCComics movie rumblings have come to light, this time involving #Superman and a big crossover event.https://t.co/NkKDWNeOa1

— /Film (@slashfilm) December 10, 2022

I feel like there are two main things DC did wrong with the DCEU so far:

1) We all know how they rushed into Justice League, which was a disaster itself but also had no organic buildup. They essentially went Iron Man, Civil War, Endgame.

I think making Man of Steel 2 into BvS wasn't a bad idea (in theory) to speed things up a little, but the "dawn of Justice" and Death of Superman parts were pretty egregious and unearned.

So #1 is pretty often agreed upon.


2) I don't think this one gets mentioned enough though. I think they expanded the universe way too fast. Consider that the MCU was a trilogy of trilogies, and didn't venture outside that until film #10 (Guardians). Phase 3 had more one-offs but they all reappeared within a year or two, and after they were well-received.

DCEU had no lynchpin, and spun off in different directions almost immediately. If it's supposed to be Justice League, why are 8 of the 14 post-Nolan DC properties about non-JL members? Consider:

Man of Steel
BvS
Suicide Squad
Wonder Woman
Justice League
Aquaman
Shazam
Joker - different universe entirely
Birds of Prey
Wonder Woman 1984
The Suicide Squad
The Batman - different universe entirely
Black Adam
Peacemaker (TV)

The italicized films are essentially irrelevant to any centralized storyline, and two of the non-italicized ones were prequels. Obviously DC will take some of those successes (Joker, Batman) but in general it's very scattershot.

So obviously they weren't trying to tie things to the Justice League... but isn't that a waste of a shared universe? All the MCU Phase 4 threads end up being about how people want these things to feel relevant and build toward something. But at least those have the promise that you'll see the characters again, sometimes very soon (ie Scarlet Witch in Doctor Strange 2) and the universe will eventually come together again.

I think if DC had slowed down and hadn't chased every car that went by (I mean... Birds of Prey?), this could have been a success. But instead they're doing the Sony thing where the main thing you hear about a film is the tease for what may happen (but probably won't) in a potential sequel. Great stuff.

The other problem is that DC rushed into expanding the universe so fast that it didn't have time to develop good scripts. When your story is slave to a release schedule planned in a boardroom, the story is going to suffer.

Marvel is starting to run into this same problem. The more intricate they try to get, the more they try to force timing and order to movies and tv shows, the worse the storytelling gets. And you're starting to see more breaks, like "oh crap, our Blade story sucks. Postpone. But what else was blade going to appear in and what dominos does that knock over?"

If the Gunn-verse happens, I bet we get Brainiac as our first big bad. He's been really into mind-controlling villains lately. it's a great way to add tension to relationships and drive up the stakes.

I like Brainiac as a villain, despite his really stupid name, because he is clearly a superior intellect to Superman. I like the version of Superman who is somewhat like early Captain America - he assumes the best in everyone and it's a weakness.

Yes of course. Superman is a huge priority, if not the biggest priority.

— James Gunn (@JamesGunn) December 10, 2022