I still don't get how they didn't have the foresight to just hire Abrams (or someone with a vision) to map out the trilogy, and tell a coherent story across all 3 movies. The second it was announced that he was only doing the first one, and someone else entirely was writing and making the 2nd, we should have known. But its Star Wars, and we want it to be good, so we lied to ourselves.TCTTS said:
Because Disney had every opportunity to "save" the franchise from the stink of the prequels, those 3D releases, etc. But Kennedy & co screwed it up at every stage. A group of monkeys could have been locked in a room and planned the new iteration of the franchise better than what we got. In all seriousness, this board could have planned a better sequel trilogy in a single week, in a single thread. I genuinely believe that. A sequel trilogy was a lay-up if I ever saw one, but for some idiotic reason they decided to skip the whole trilogy-planning phase, wing it, and remake A New Hope instead.
Is Disney killing Star Wars?
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Last: 6 yr ago by Urban Ag
As soon as I heard Abrams' was the guy, I knew we were doomed, he had already had wrecked Star Trek.
It's like the guy was brought to earth specifically to tarnish the childhood memories of all boys from the 60s and 70s.
It's like the guy was brought to earth specifically to tarnish the childhood memories of all boys from the 60s and 70s.
How had Abrams already "wrecked" Star Trek by then? He was announced as the EVII director in January 2013, still five months before Star Trek Into Darkness released. Into Darkness was a mess, sure, but the '09 movie was incredibly well-received (94% on RT), and is still one of my personal favorite blockbusters of the century so far. Granted, Abrams certainly has his flaws, which I've discussed plenty over the years, but at that point in time he was a pretty exciting hire.
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For me, 2009 did the damage. It was historically a cerebral franchise in many ways...lots of allegory, metaphors
, deeper themes etc. The first 6 movies weren't perfect, but Abrams took it from that, to largely a mindless action series. Completely changed what the franchise represented.
That critics liked it as much as they did still baffles me, but many of the people writing those reviews didn't grow up on TNG, let alone the original series. Read around on how long time franchise fans felt about it. I was far from alone in that view. And in the end he did the same thing to both, corporatizing great franchises at the expense of what made them great, I get that it was probably his mandate to some extent, but it's also not coincidence that he did both and both have suffered for it.
, deeper themes etc. The first 6 movies weren't perfect, but Abrams took it from that, to largely a mindless action series. Completely changed what the franchise represented.
That critics liked it as much as they did still baffles me, but many of the people writing those reviews didn't grow up on TNG, let alone the original series. Read around on how long time franchise fans felt about it. I was far from alone in that view. And in the end he did the same thing to both, corporatizing great franchises at the expense of what made them great, I get that it was probably his mandate to some extent, but it's also not coincidence that he did both and both have suffered for it.
Glad we had this little chat...
oragator said:
For me, 2009 did the damage. It was historically a cerebral franchise in many ways...lots of allegory, metaphors
, deeper themes etc. The first 6 movies weren't perfect, but Abrams took it from that, to largely a mindless action series. Completely changed what the franchise represented.
That critics liked it as much as they did still baffles me, but many of the people writing those reviews didn't grow up on TNG, let alone the original series. Read around on how long time franchise fans felt about it. I was far from alone in that view. And in the end he did the same thing to both, corporatizing great franchises at the expense of what made them great, I get that it was probably his mandate to some extent, but it's also not coincidence that he did both and both have suffered for it.
I hear you - I know it wasn't what hard core Trek fans wanted, necessarily - but I would argue that the more action-oriented direction he took Trek with that '09 movie actually gave us even more hope for EVII at the time.
https://entertainment.theonion.com/trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable-1819594814oragator said:
For me, 2009 did the damage. It was historically a cerebral franchise in many ways...lots of allegory, metaphors
, deeper themes etc. The first 6 movies weren't perfect, but Abrams took it from that, to largely a mindless action series. Completely changed what the franchise represented.
That critics liked it as much as they did still baffles me, but many of the people writing those reviews didn't grow up on TNG, let alone the original series. Read around on how long time franchise fans felt about it. I was far from alone in that view. And in the end he did the same thing to both, corporatizing great franchises at the expense of what made them great, I get that it was probably his mandate to some extent, but it's also not coincidence that he did both and both have suffered for it.
Holy sh*t, I totally forgot about that. So, so good. I miss those old Onion videos...
I tried to post a funny Wedge Antilles gif to support you but couldn't get it to work. I'm was on article 4 of 13 before I can go to sleep at the time so I opened up a big old can of quit instead.
TCTTS
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Off topic but Star Trek 2009 has one of the best trailers of all time.
This is the perfect description of TLJ. It's legitimately half a great Star Wars film, and half prequel-level terrible. In a social media age of black and white it's either a classic or **** kind of criticism, TLJ doesn't fit. I actually can't wait for the re-watch for that reason.CJS4715 said:
My opinion on TLJ has shifted quite a few times. It is the most confused I've ever been by a Star Wars movie. I'm not even sure what my opinion is of it vs. the opinion of others that I've just adopted over time.
This thread puzzles me. Don't get me wrong, I'm relieved that a lot of you guys have come to your senses and recognize that TLJ has done massive, if not mortal, damage to the franchise. The majority opinion around here at the time of release was that TLJ critics were just spoiled brat fanboyz who were too obsessed with nitpicking to enjoy having their expectations subverted. It's OK, though. There's plenty of room at this tailgate. Keg's over there, grab a brew and pull up a camp chair.
I really think that some of you guys are waaay overhyping the "damage" done to the franchise by TLJ. The reasons Galaxy's Edge isn't packed to the gills have nothing to do with TLJ.
There are so many problems with the TLJ that it is in fact beyond beating a dead horse at this point to even discuss. But what is often not covered, and is a major fault of the TLJ actually started under JJ's watch.
The First Order is a complete joke. Top to bottom. From Kylo throwing temper tantrums to Hux being abused and humiliated for comic relief. It just kills the premise of the galaxy being under the boot of the oppression of some evil empire when said evil empire is run by anger management flunky imbeciles. Even the all powerful Snoke is easily taken out by his underling as he sits on his throne in his pajamas going heh, heh, heh.
Bash Lucas all you want but his vision of the Empire actually did invoke a truly professional military organization of competent leaders and soldiers that conquered and put fear in to all they ruled over or opposed them. By contrast, the First Order is borderline slapstick that has rendered much of the new trilogy lame.
The First Order is a complete joke. Top to bottom. From Kylo throwing temper tantrums to Hux being abused and humiliated for comic relief. It just kills the premise of the galaxy being under the boot of the oppression of some evil empire when said evil empire is run by anger management flunky imbeciles. Even the all powerful Snoke is easily taken out by his underling as he sits on his throne in his pajamas going heh, heh, heh.
Bash Lucas all you want but his vision of the Empire actually did invoke a truly professional military organization of competent leaders and soldiers that conquered and put fear in to all they ruled over or opposed them. By contrast, the First Order is borderline slapstick that has rendered much of the new trilogy lame.
I agree. I've posted many times that my interest in the current trilogy is very low at this point but my interest in the franchise remains high. The current trilogy sucks. Swing and a miss. But I am excited about the Mandolorian and we're going to Galaxy's End next year. Hopeful future films will deliver. And I'll still leave the house in a retro Star Wars t-shirt at least every other week until I assume room temp.Belton Ag said:
I really think that some of you guys are waaay overhyping the "damage" done to the franchise by TLJ. The reasons Galaxy's Edge isn't packed to the gills have nothing to do with TLJ.
The First Order is a joke ,but after Ep. 8, I thought we still had time to explain their backstory (along with Snoke's), so it wasn't a huge hangup for me. Then Rian Johnson's abortion came along and not only failed to explain any backstory, but actively sabotaged their import entirely.
At the end of the day, the First Order is another contrived plot device that I could ultimately forgive with the understanding that it proves useful to our main characters....BUT the real problem is; who actually cares about Rey? or Kylo? and is there a single soul that needs more Finn?
I will be excited for the next trilogy when they move past all this. I am just the least enthused about this current trilogy. I simply don't care about Finn, Rey or Kylo...and it's mostly because TLJ taught me not to care about them.
At the end of the day, the First Order is another contrived plot device that I could ultimately forgive with the understanding that it proves useful to our main characters....BUT the real problem is; who actually cares about Rey? or Kylo? and is there a single soul that needs more Finn?
I will be excited for the next trilogy when they move past all this. I am just the least enthused about this current trilogy. I simply don't care about Finn, Rey or Kylo...and it's mostly because TLJ taught me not to care about them.
We want to root for flawed heroes. Characters that are too perfect are boring and not relatable. Think of all the characters from the MCU, SW, DCU etc that dont have an obvious human-relatable flaw and you'll realize they tend to boring long term story arcs (Superman boring, Captain Marvel boring, Rey boring, Thor boring until they made him somewhat insecure and concerned with his image and relative strength). We can even relate to cybernetic raccoon because he's angry with the hand he's been dealt and pushes people away because he fears connection.TCTTS said:
What if Jedis are just too damn boring for this day and age?
In the same way that Superman has started to feel more and more like a relic, are Jedis simply too stoic and Boyscout-ish? Or does the existence and popularity of Captain America dispel that idea?
What is it about the Guardians of the Galaxy that works so well and what is it about Star Wars that plays more stiff lately? Should Star Wars aim to be more of an action-comedy? Or should they try to age-up a bit and go even more serious?
Also, SW may have gotten of track in our minds as viewers because were weren't cheering for the Jedi in 4-6, we were cheering for the rebellion. Luke/Vader as Jedi's were just side notes. The other stories (1-3, 7-9) are more Jedi-centric which would then make for more stories about more unrelatable characters, by definition, right? In TFA and TLJ, Jedi are obviously the focus but which of the character's is more interesting and relatable, the flawless Rey or the tortured Kylo Ren?
And that's the other mega problem with this trilogy. No one cares about the main characters outside of Han in the TLJ. Which by the way was the most inspired and enduring performance of the new trilogy to date by a 70-something year old man that didn't really seem that enthused to be there.
Kids are always the best barometer for these kind of movies. If you ask my kids who Robert Downey Jr is they'll say Iron Man. Chris Hemsworth? Thor. Chris Pratt? Starlord. If I asked them who Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, or Oscar Isaac was they'd say "who?".
And that's not a knock against those actors it just is what it is.
Kids are always the best barometer for these kind of movies. If you ask my kids who Robert Downey Jr is they'll say Iron Man. Chris Hemsworth? Thor. Chris Pratt? Starlord. If I asked them who Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, or Oscar Isaac was they'd say "who?".
And that's not a knock against those actors it just is what it is.
I may be in the minority here among SW fans but even as a kid I eye rolled about the Jedi, Sith, and the Force.
I loved SW for the universe that Lucas created. The Empire, stormtroopers, AT-AT's, bounty hunters, gun slingers, Chewbacca, rebels, Leia in a metal bikini, and the whole notion that if you had a ship with a hyperdrive you could blast off this rock and go somewhere else. That was always what enthused me. Old Ralph McQuarrie concept art was the stuff of my dreams as a kid.
Never really cared about hokey religions and ancient weapons.
I loved SW for the universe that Lucas created. The Empire, stormtroopers, AT-AT's, bounty hunters, gun slingers, Chewbacca, rebels, Leia in a metal bikini, and the whole notion that if you had a ship with a hyperdrive you could blast off this rock and go somewhere else. That was always what enthused me. Old Ralph McQuarrie concept art was the stuff of my dreams as a kid.
Never really cared about hokey religions and ancient weapons.
I agree with this, but I wasn't just rooting for "the rebellion" in 4-6, I was rooting for the flawed hero, Han, and ultimately Vader to some degree. I have always felt that there was no "Han " character in 7 and 8. it was supposed to be Finn but he has zero charisma compared to Harrison Ford. And since they killed Han in 7 I had nothing in 8. in 1-3 you had Anakin/Vader, but both actors were bad and the dialogue was bad. Truth is the only real side movie I would want it an old Han/Chewbacca story, roaming the galaxy.tysker said:We want to root for flawed heroes. Characters that are too perfect are boring and not relatable. Think of all the characters from the MCU, SW, DCU etc that dont have an obvious human-relatable flaw and you'll realize they tend to boring long term story arcs (Superman boring, Captain Marvel boring, Rey boring, Thor boring until they made him somewhat insecure and concerned with his image and relative strength). We can even relate to cybernetic raccoon because he's angry with the hand he's been dealt and pushes people away because he fears connection.TCTTS said:
What if Jedis are just too damn boring for this day and age?
In the same way that Superman has started to feel more and more like a relic, are Jedis simply too stoic and Boyscout-ish? Or does the existence and popularity of Captain America dispel that idea?
What is it about the Guardians of the Galaxy that works so well and what is it about Star Wars that plays more stiff lately? Should Star Wars aim to be more of an action-comedy? Or should they try to age-up a bit and go even more serious?
Also, SW may have gotten of track in our minds as viewers because were weren't cheering for the Jedi in 4-6, we were cheering for the rebellion. Luke/Vader as Jedi's were just side notes. The other stories (1-3, 7-9) are more Jedi-centric which would then make for more stories about more unrelatable characters, by definition, right? In TFA and TLJ, Jedi are obviously the focus but which of the character's is more interesting and relatable, the flawless Rey or the tortured Kylo Ren?
No I think you were right to think that. ANH is still a western, right? All the force stuff is just a mcguffin to lead Luke's storyline. But that's how we as fans were misled duped misunderstood the entirety of the SW stories as originally conceived. I guess I'm saying it seems as if the SW universe (stories 1-9 in total) were about the Force and a couple character's struggle with finding and using the Force, whereas we movie fans of 4-6 were all about the rebellion and the underground, thus having misaligned connections.
I'd agree with that. They tried to make Finn a Han-like sidekick but Finn was a reiteration of Rey instead of a foil. Finn is almost too perfect in his own right.
Hello Han!Urban Ag said:
I may be in the minority here among SW fans but even as a kid I eye rolled about the Jedi, Sith, and the Force.
I loved SW for the universe that Lucas created. The Empire, stormtroopers, AT-AT's, bounty hunters, gun slingers, Chewbacca, rebels, Leia in a metal bikini, and the whole notion that if you had a ship with a hyperdrive you could blast off this rock and go somewhere else. That was always what enthused me. Old Ralph McQuarrie concept art was the stuff of my dreams as a kid.
Never really cared about hokey religions and ancient weapons.
Urban Ag
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Controversial-ish opinion: I never wanted the Disney sequels.
When Disney obtained Star Wars, I was disappointed that they immediately announced a new trilogy. It was annoying any time someone said "we've been waiting 30 years for more Star Wars" as if the prequels hadn't happened. I don't like the prequels - at all - but there wasn't much reason to think that these sequels would be drastically different. J.J. Abrams makes an alright film. Star Trek was good, Into Darkness, MI3,TLJ are all just "alright" in my book. Nothing to write home about.
And it's not that I hold the originals in too high regard, and that any additional Star Wars content taints their legacy or something like that. Not quite. I was completely on board for the idea of Rogue One. A Boba Fett movie would make sense, for the most part. Or side content with new characters on the other side of the galaxy. Or the Old Republic. Any of that made sense.
But the sequels have changed the originals. Now I can't see the Rebels and the Ewoks celebrating at the end of RotJ without thinking "too bad Han's son is going to stab him in the heart in a few years." All because Harrison Ford wanted out of the series. How lame is that? Not for him, but for the story/canon? So many outside choices have impacted the writing of the films in very visible ways.
Rogue One is filled with reshoot weirdness, and moments that don't quite land, like a guy seeing his friend die, then... heroically killing 4 storm troopers before dying as well. There wasn't a better idea there? Anything?
Solo is another one that has already been picked to death, and TLJ is such a major shift in direction than the previous film, because there's a new director. So with each additional film, the direction changes, and the allure of Star Wars is wearing off, as it's just a bunch of unorganized, uninspired film making that can't help but tarnish the memory of the originals.
So Star Wars has been dead to me for a while, unfortunately. None of the new films have done much to stoke that old fire, really, but they've done plenty to put it out. Marvel is now #1 by a long shot.
When Disney obtained Star Wars, I was disappointed that they immediately announced a new trilogy. It was annoying any time someone said "we've been waiting 30 years for more Star Wars" as if the prequels hadn't happened. I don't like the prequels - at all - but there wasn't much reason to think that these sequels would be drastically different. J.J. Abrams makes an alright film. Star Trek was good, Into Darkness, MI3,TLJ are all just "alright" in my book. Nothing to write home about.
And it's not that I hold the originals in too high regard, and that any additional Star Wars content taints their legacy or something like that. Not quite. I was completely on board for the idea of Rogue One. A Boba Fett movie would make sense, for the most part. Or side content with new characters on the other side of the galaxy. Or the Old Republic. Any of that made sense.
But the sequels have changed the originals. Now I can't see the Rebels and the Ewoks celebrating at the end of RotJ without thinking "too bad Han's son is going to stab him in the heart in a few years." All because Harrison Ford wanted out of the series. How lame is that? Not for him, but for the story/canon? So many outside choices have impacted the writing of the films in very visible ways.
Rogue One is filled with reshoot weirdness, and moments that don't quite land, like a guy seeing his friend die, then... heroically killing 4 storm troopers before dying as well. There wasn't a better idea there? Anything?
Solo is another one that has already been picked to death, and TLJ is such a major shift in direction than the previous film, because there's a new director. So with each additional film, the direction changes, and the allure of Star Wars is wearing off, as it's just a bunch of unorganized, uninspired film making that can't help but tarnish the memory of the originals.
So Star Wars has been dead to me for a while, unfortunately. None of the new films have done much to stoke that old fire, really, but they've done plenty to put it out. Marvel is now #1 by a long shot.
Great post with some great points. The Jedi in the prequel are boring and kind of destroyed the mystique from the original trilogy, in my opinion.tysker said:We want to root for flawed heroes. Characters that are too perfect are boring and not relatable. Think of all the characters from the MCU, SW, DCU etc that dont have an obvious human-relatable flaw and you'll realize they tend to boring long term story arcs (Superman boring, Captain Marvel boring, Rey boring, Thor boring until they made him somewhat insecure and concerned with his image and relative strength). We can even relate to cybernetic raccoon because he's angry with the hand he's been dealt and pushes people away because he fears connection.TCTTS said:
What if Jedis are just too damn boring for this day and age?
In the same way that Superman has started to feel more and more like a relic, are Jedis simply too stoic and Boyscout-ish? Or does the existence and popularity of Captain America dispel that idea?
What is it about the Guardians of the Galaxy that works so well and what is it about Star Wars that plays more stiff lately? Should Star Wars aim to be more of an action-comedy? Or should they try to age-up a bit and go even more serious?
Also, SW may have gotten of track in our minds as viewers because were weren't cheering for the Jedi in 4-6, we were cheering for the rebellion. Luke/Vader as Jedi's were just side notes. The other stories (1-3, 7-9) are more Jedi-centric which would then make for more stories about more unrelatable characters, by definition, right? In TFA and TLJ, Jedi are obviously the focus but which of the character's is more interesting and relatable, the flawless Rey or the tortured Kylo Ren?
I thought Johnson and TLJ was going to move away from the Jedi concept for this very reason (and what TCTTS said earlier). The movie seemed to be going there with Rey jumping into the dark side and her relationship with Kylo, but then it just throws it all away by the end of the movie with Rey stealing the books and rejecting Kylo's offer.
Ultimately, what makes Star Wars what it is and not just another space movie is really the light sabers and The Force. They have to find a way to make us interested in that and make it feel fresh. You don't do that by making a super-overpowered Jedi and just have her whip everybody's ass without very little struggle (unless that is going to be your big BAD, and then it's interesting - see Vader).
I personally feel like the biggest miss of this franchise is Finn. The character itself is a great concept - a storm trooper with his mask off. Humanizing the guys we are used to watching get mowed down by the good guys. Finding out what he thinks and feels. Watching him come over to the "good-guys."
They completely destroyed his character last movie, though and now most people hate him. Really a missed opportunity.
John Matrix said:
I actually can't wait for the re-watch for that reason.
Re: The Last Jedi rewatch thread... That is a thread that I'm actually not looking forward to at all. It'll take us right up to Episode IX though.
I respectfully but completely disagree about Finn as a character being destroyed in TLJ. Finn was dead on arrival.
Supposedly spent his whole (or majority) of his life training to be a stormtrooper than freaks out on first combat mission such to a degree that he's willing to kill his fellow soldiers to desert.
Spends his life in disciplined military environment than says things like "droid please". Dumb.
At one moment is desperately seeking a seat on any cruiser to get as far away from both the First Order and the Resistance, next scene is running through gun fire screaming "Reyyyyy..NOOOOOOOOOOO".
Just terrible.
How awesome would Finn have been if the character portrayed a disciplined military man battling between a sense of duty and loyalty to his comrades in the First Order and his moral conscience in complete conflict with what the First Order stands for? Finn should have been a stiff that Rey helped loosen up, not the other way around.
Total waste of a character. Boyega is much better than this character.
Supposedly spent his whole (or majority) of his life training to be a stormtrooper than freaks out on first combat mission such to a degree that he's willing to kill his fellow soldiers to desert.
Spends his life in disciplined military environment than says things like "droid please". Dumb.
At one moment is desperately seeking a seat on any cruiser to get as far away from both the First Order and the Resistance, next scene is running through gun fire screaming "Reyyyyy..NOOOOOOOOOOO".
Just terrible.
How awesome would Finn have been if the character portrayed a disciplined military man battling between a sense of duty and loyalty to his comrades in the First Order and his moral conscience in complete conflict with what the First Order stands for? Finn should have been a stiff that Rey helped loosen up, not the other way around.
Total waste of a character. Boyega is much better than this character.
So I know I'm in the minority that didn't hate TLJ. I didn't love it, but I felt like the choices made were simply a direction people didn't like (which I can totally understand). Not going to argue for it, to each their own.
That being said, I think the TFA hate from some is off base. Yes, it was somewhat rehashed and familiar, but that was exactly what the franchise needed at that point. The prequels overall took Star Wars away from being Star Wars, they felt overly digital and forced and faux serious. We needed a return to something that just felt like a Star Wars film, and Abrams absolutely nailed that both in look and tone.
There were moments in that film where I got goosebumps because I WAS WATCHING A REAL STAR WARS FILM and that was what had been missing for years.
That being said, I think the TFA hate from some is off base. Yes, it was somewhat rehashed and familiar, but that was exactly what the franchise needed at that point. The prequels overall took Star Wars away from being Star Wars, they felt overly digital and forced and faux serious. We needed a return to something that just felt like a Star Wars film, and Abrams absolutely nailed that both in look and tone.
There were moments in that film where I got goosebumps because I WAS WATCHING A REAL STAR WARS FILM and that was what had been missing for years.
fig96 said:
So I know I'm in the minority that didn't hate TLJ. I didn't love it, but I felt like the choices made were simply a direction people didn't like (which I can totally understand). Not going to argue for it, to each their own.
That being said, I think the TFA hate from some is off base. Yes, it was somewhat rehashed and familiar, but that was exactly what the franchise needed at that point. The prequels overall took Star Wars away from being Star Wars, they felt overly digital and forced and faux serious. We needed a return to something that just felt like a Star Wars film, and Abrams absolutely nailed that both in look and tone.
There were moments in that film where I got goosebumps because I WAS WATCHING A REAL STAR WARS FILM and that was what had been missing for years.
Oddly enough, a lot of the hate for TFA stems from TLJ. There is a not small number of fans who were happy with TFA, but the lack of payoff in TLJ makes TFA seem like a much weaker story than it did on first viewing as the first act of what promised to be a three movie story arch.
Urban Ag said:
I respectfully but completely disagree about Finn as a character being destroyed in TLJ. Finn was dead on arrival.
Supposedly spent his whole (or majority) of his life training to be a stormtrooper than freaks out on first combat mission such to a degree that he's willing to kill his fellow soldiers to desert.
Spends his life in disciplined military environment than says things like "droid please". Dumb.
At one moment is desperately seeking a seat on any cruiser to get as far away from both the First Order and the Resistance, next scene is running through gun fire screaming "Reyyyyy..NOOOOOOOOOOO".
Just terrible.
How awesome would Finn have been if the character portrayed a disciplined military man battling between a sense of duty and loyalty to his comrades in the First Order and his moral conscience in complete conflict with what the First Order stands for? Finn should have been a stiff that Rey helped loosen up, not the other way around.
Total waste of a character. Boyega is much better than this character.
I meant more the concept of a turn coat Storm trooper was cool. I thought Finn from TFA was serviceable and could've been a likeable and great character if handled correctly in TLJ. I also agree with you that they could've done a lot better job with the character concept from the jump. I like your ideas. They could've made him a hostage, too, and had him slowly turn to the good guys that way. He could've filled more of the role they're trying to put Kylo in, but without the baggage that makes Kylo kind of unredeemable at this point.
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