This is what you have said in this thread:

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Beating white people over the head with an issue we had nothing to do with is tiresome now.

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So, the current and coming onslaught of movies and shows smacking us all upside the head about racism is going to naturally turn people off.

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We are overtly and actively promoting and pushing one racial groups life over all others.

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The issue at hand is pushing a message of "white man bad".

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I'm merely trying to present a viewpoint others have.it could be seen as one more shot at white people in context of current environment regardless of intent.

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You keep saying that the messaging is "white man Bad", but you have not presented any examples that show this.

So I ask again, why are you assuming that these shows/movies are saying that all white people are bad?

I enjoyed that first episode. My wife, who has no idea who Lovecraft is, was very confused as to WTF was going on at the end of the first episode.

Teddy Perkins said:

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GDit, I just watched this last night and was excited to finally come to this thread to learn more about Lovecraft, the literary history of the monsters, what the hell was going on in the opening scene, and maybe enjoy some theories that stoked some of my own. Instead it's 4 pages of f16 BS. Guess I'll see what I can find on YouTube.

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If you want some key readings to get an idea of his writings, I'd suggest the following of his:

• Call of Cthulhu
• At the Mountains of Madness (I'd argue his best work)
• Shadow Over Innsmouth
• Herbert West - Reanimator
• Whisperer In the Darkness (another personal favorite)
• The Rats in the Walls

His stories are fairly short, the longest being novellas of middling length, and you should be able to find a collection somewhere. The language is definitely antiquated, but his creativity is incredible, and many are interlinked.

If you want to learn more about him as a person, there have been numerous articles written, particularly with race reemerging as such a hot topic issue lately. As a starter, though, his wiki page is one of the more thoroughly fleshed out ones and will give you a basic idea of him and the themes that were incorporated into his writings.

YouBet said:

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Holy Christ. I was merely presenting a viewpoint of how some folks are going to perceive this. Since it has monsters and sh^t in it I plan to watch the show and will return with my thoughts.

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You've actually been respectful and thorough in presenting it, I feel. There were many others that just did the typical drive-by trolling you often find in threads for shows of this nature.

bluefire579 said:

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Teddy Perkins said:

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GDit, I just watched this last night and was excited to finally come to this thread to learn more about Lovecraft, the literary history of the monsters, what the hell was going on in the opening scene, and maybe enjoy some theories that stoked some of my own. Instead it's 4 pages of f16 BS. Guess I'll see what I can find on YouTube.

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If you want some key readings to get an idea of his writings, I'd suggest the following of his:

• Call of Cthulhu
• At the Mountains of Madness (I'd argue his best work)
• Shadow Over Innsmouth
• Herbert West - Reanimator
• Whisperer In the Darkness (another personal favorite)
• The Rats in the Walls

His stories are fairly short, the longest being novellas of middling length, and you should be able to find a collection somewhere. The language is definitely antiquated, but his creativity is incredible, and many are interlinked.

If you want to learn more about him as a person, there have been numerous articles written, particularly with race reemerging as such a hot topic issue lately. As a starter, though, his wiki page is one of the more thoroughly fleshed out ones and will give you a basic idea of him and the themes that were incorporated into his writings.

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I've read the first three but don't recall a ton about them other than they are weird and bizarre. Will need to reread.

There's definitely a weirdness to most of his tales. It helps to have something to reference, particularly in the stories where it goes into the different gods and races that he dreams up. Herbert West - Reanimator is an example of one of his more straightforward horror stories that is more outside of the "Weird Fiction" moniker.

YouBet said:

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Holy Christ. I was merely presenting a viewpoint of how some folks are going to perceive this. Since it has monsters and sh^t in it I plan to watch the show and will return with my thoughts.

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I was just trying to understand, that's all. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions

As far as this show goes, I will be interested in your take on the first episode, specifically, the symbolism in the final act.

I just started reading the book and I am looking forward to seeing how the two compare.

Aggie_Journalist said:

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I just watched the first episode and enjoyed it.

I've heard of the book this is based on, but haven't read it. I wonder if this is going to take the path of the old Golem myth (where oppressed Jews created a monstrous golem to protect them, but the golem proved too destructive and the Jews had to destroy it). But in this case, maybe the lovecraftian monsters were created by oppressed African Americans, and got out of hand.

Would be an interesting direction to go.

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Underrated post. Haven't watched an episode yet, but that would certainly be a cool, plausible scenario for a horror show.

Yeah, the second episode wasn't nearly as good as the first...

Yep, right there with you guys. I loved the pilot, but I'm afraid the second episode was a way too pulpy and magical for my taste. Last week's premiere was the perfect blend of real world and sci-fi. And I completely realize how nonsensical this might sound, but I can do sci-fi all day long - even as fantastical as Asgard or something like that, as long as there's "science" behind it - but the second you get into magic and spells and all that, you lose me. Again, I know the distinction is arbitrary, but they suddenly swerved directly into a lane I'm just not a fan of, and it was handled in a cheesy, low-budget Syfy channel way at that, as mentioned above. Or like something out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer on The WB back in the day. It was just... bad. Add in the whole return-to-the-Garden-of-Eden thing - a massive idea that requires all kinds of exploration - only to abandon it just as quickly as it was introduced, was so weird and disorienting.

It also weirdly felt like a season finale, with Atticus finally going head-to-head with the big bad and his secret organization, only to suddenly kill him/them off, destroy their lair, and now we're suddenly back to square one? I don't understand what the show is even supposed to be from here, as it left hardly any threads dangling. The pilot very distinctly setup a show that felt like it was going to be a season-long journey from Chicago down through Lovecraft Country, in which Atticus & co faced off against monsters to rescue his dad and discover his true heritage/identity along the way. Arriving at the mansion felt like it should be, say, an episode eight event - the Emerald City at the end of the Yellow Brick Road - instead of an end of episode one event. I was ready to roll with it, though, but to then just completely abandon that thread so suddenly felt incredibly off. I'm sure the blonde daughter will come back into play, but it looks like they're already back in Chicago for episode three? I don't know what's going on, and I suddenly hardly care at all.

I guess I'll give episode three a shot, but if it's anything like this episode, I'm probably out.

The second I finished typing that, I got these three texts from a buddy, who loved the pilot same as me...

"Man I don't know how much more Lovecraft Country will be in my future."

"Absolutely terrible."

"Zero consequences and new rules and random nonsense for an hour."

So week 1 I enjoyed, but last night was a total mess. If you want to make the entire journey in one episode so be it, but pulling back the curtain in episode 2 was a mistake. Not a book I've read, but doesn't feel like something they would have gotten to so quickly. Draw out the mystery, bring the audience along slowly. Establish that it's bizarre in this manor and build the intrigue, build the world the story takes place in. It just felt sloppy, really need to clean up the pacing, I'm so much more confused right now than I was before it started.

I would guess that they'll put in some reason to go back in episode three.

If not, maybe the series will explore the racism inherent in the north for two episodes.

bluefire579 said:

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Enjoyed the first episode, felt they captured the book really well. Interestingly enough, that entire sequence in the forest was much drawn out from what was in the book, but I felt like it was a good addition. It did seem to move pretty quickly, but looking back at the book, it seems to match the pace. I am interested to see how they structure it moving forward, because the Ardham part is key but not a long part of the narrative in the book itself.

I do love Lovecraft and all the early-mid century pulp stuff, so the book, and by proxy the show, strikes a huge chord with me.

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Haven't watched the new episode yet, but having read the book, I'm going to quote myself here - figured this would cause a bit of confusion. Seems like from what y'all are saying that they're sticking fairly close to the book for the second episode as well.

I didn't hate it as much as the rest of you but i agree with the "season finale" and "sci-fi channel" feelings.

Highlight - Omar Little - I didn't looked at the credits, so that was a pleasant surprise
Lowlight - everything else

The more time I've had to think on it and read/hear additional reactions, the worse it gets. Even the critics who might give something like this a pass for it being woke or whatever are tearing this episode apart. But yeah, I had the same thought multiple times last night... "How is this on HBO?" Everything about it screamed The CW in the early '00s. I just don't get how it even made it to air, especially following such a well-executed pilot.

I had no idea what this was about and was blown away by where I thought it was going. Second episode was extremely interesting/not knowing what to expect etc.

Ive enjoyed it so far.

Well, that escalated quickly.

I haven't watched the pilot yet so maybe I'll hold off now.

So even though I didn't hate the episode like others did, I do recognize that the pacing is a bit frenetic, likely more so to someone with no background. It leaves a lot of things in question and handles some of the reveals a bit clumsily while feeling like it should be coming at the end of the series instead of the later part.

Something to keep in mind about this series, as it pertains to the book, is that the pulpy approach is very much a part of its DNA. The book is written in an episodic manner, with the characters going through several adventures that seem unrelated but will converge in the latter portion. It's going to feel a bit disjointed, but it does come together (assuming they stick to the book, which it seems they are).

TCTTS, I actually found your complaint about the magic and such interesting. The story wears its Lovecraftian influences very much on its sleeve, and Lovecraft was a product of the pulp era whose works were more than just monsters. His stories were heavily rooted in mysticism (like the pulpy nature, a product of the time), with incantations, spells, and cults standing as a huge part of his writings, often being the source of said monsters and the unholy gods that borne them. Which, maybe they should have done a better job introducing who Lovecraft was and what his writings entail outside of monsters and his overt racism.

"woke Goosebumps"

The first episode and the series I was expecting after watching it (The Green Book meets Ash vs Evil Dead) were 100% aligned with my expectations and looked to be a lot of fun.

Then the second episode happened and "woke goosebumps" is the perfect summation of my expectations going forward. I will give another episode a **** but don't anticipate hanging on much longer.

Did Peele write the book the show is based on?

I didn't think the second episode was as good as the first episode, but I also don't think it was as terrible as it is being made out to be. it sounds more like folks are dissapointed that the plot isn't following the story they expected it to follow.

I'm curious though, can somebody explain how this episode was, "woke goosebumps" or "race baiting"?

For me the "woke goosebumps" was referring more to the cable TV quality of the cgi and other sfx. And that it was all wrapped up in 2 episodes.

The snake dong was terrible.

I liked the use of racists as the monsters/bad guys. The execution just wasn't that good and certainly not HBO quality

For me, the race angle of the show has been fine. It doesn't feel at all like "race baiting." It's been pretty clear in its themes from day one - it wears its intentions on its sleeve in that regard - so I don't understand how anyone could have been "baited" by this. And yeah, Duncan said it best, re: "woke Goosebumps." I took that as more of a hilarious quality descriptor than something commenting on its actual wokeness. At its core, the racial themes being explored are pretty timeless and par for the course. I don't really get that much of a "woke" feeling from it.

As for the story itself, it's not that I'm disappointed it's not following the story *I* expected. It's that it's not following the story it set by its own marketing and the pilot. Like I said earlier, everything prior to episode two setup a show that felt like it was going to be a season-long journey from Chicago down through Lovecraft Country, in which Atticus & co faced off against monsters to rescue his dad and discover his true heritage/identity along the way. But then that show - the show that was advertised to us and distinctly setup in the pilot - was essentially over at the end of episode two. It was just really, really odd pacing based on everything the show itself told us it was going to be. And now we're suddenly back in Chicago for episode three? i.e. NOT in the show's namesake of "Lovecraft Country"? Again, I'll give it a shot and see if we get a better idea of the next seven episodes after that. But right now it feels a bit like if The Fellowship of the Ring made it all the way to Mordor by the end of the first movie, Frodo rid himself of the ring, Gollum was defeated, and we're back in the Shire... all before the second movie. I'm just sitting here going, "What's left to do?" Which has nothing to do with *my* expectations. After episode two of any show, I shouldn't be left wondering what the hell the rest of the series is even going to be about. I should have a much clearer sense of the narrative, the character arcs, etc, and should be invested in the many dangling threads keeping me enticed for the third episode and beyond. But right now I have none of that.

Well I did not see any lead up to anything. Just saw the title and thought, "hey its lovecraft" what I was greeted with was an hour of "white people are awful" via nonsensical style. The cafe that had white painted walls and was thus representative of the white house. I mean...what?

HBO could have picked any number of shows yet they picked that at this heightened time. Its a narrative. When the credits rolled and I saw Peele's name, well, its obvious intent became known.

Further, this is a decided effort and a continuing mission to depict stories in this light.

Its sad they couldn't just tell a horror story without 90% being about race, but its expected considering the narrative.

No escapism anymore apparently.