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New Oscars Standards

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tysker
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In reply to fig96 • 10:30a, 9/14/20
AG
fig96 said:
tysker said:
Isn't it just a numbers game? Most of the people in the US are non-black. When black writers, who by their own standards, are writing black-only characters, there is going to be a naturally limited market.
I have to ask...what's a "black-only" character?

I think there's some validity to overall idea, not as a hard and fast rule but it's not unfair to think that a writer of a certain ethnicity/orientation/whatever can more effectively understand the perspective of a person similar to them. The more different that character's experience might be the more true that is.
I'm not the person implementing the rules or standards so it's not my call. You should ask the people that are asking for the rules to created. They are the ones that will make such definitions and distinctions.

Striving for authenticity in your artists, imo, is a fool's errand. It's still perception, temporal and spacial, and not necessarily a universal reality. Does art come from culture or does culture come from art? Its an ebb and flow, right? Well by installing these 'authenticity' standards or guidelines, one group trying to control that narrative within that ebb and flow and to drive and fit its own temporal and spacial perceptions. The rule-makers are then cashing in on the 'realness' (or whatever that may means for the time being) which then sends that same group down 'keeping it real' or 'selling out' rabbit hole.
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double aught
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In reply to tysker • 11:24a, 9/14/20
AG
.
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tysker
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In reply to double aught • 11:35a, 9/14/20
AG
Ya that was a lot of unnecessary words that basically say it's all bull**** censorship based on undefinable bull**** standards of bull*****
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Lathspell
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12:53p, 9/14/20
AG
By the same logic, this country was founded by white European males. Therefore, no person of color or female should be allowed to interpret the intentions of the founding fathers.

It's a ridiculous line of thought.

I completely understand the idea that someone writing about a certain culture they are not a part of and have no experience with probably leads to a poor, one dimensional character. That doesn't mean it always does, nor does it mean there should be some rule about it.

I believe you let the market decide. Also, the quality of said art will determine how long lasting it is.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Lathspell • 1:19p, 9/14/20
AG
DallasTeleAg said:
tysker said:
Isn't it just a numbers game? Most of the people in the US are non-black. When black writers, who by their own standards, are writing black-only characters, there is going to be a naturally limited market.
You aren't allowed to bring logic and rationality into these discussions. Sorry, come back later on your knees while wringing your hands and asking for forgiveness for your racism.


No one here is promoting anything of the sort. And you guys obviously aren't wrong about it being a numbers game. But that's the whole point. Just because there are more white people shouldn't necessarily mean there should be more white stories. The output doesn't have to, nor should it, directly correlate to the respective racial demographic breakdowns.
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tysker
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In reply to TCTTS • 2:56p, 9/14/20
AG
Exactly why writers should be free to write characters from backgrounds and experiences different than their own. I'm just guessing here but I assume there aren't enough black writers writing enough good only-black stories with good only-black characters to fill the available slots and investments. But that will change, give it time. The fact the Hollywood Black List has become so valuable shows good stories and good characters ultimately matter more than authorship. There's already plenty of malinvestment in Hollywood. Being beholden to arbitrary racial standards is only going to make that malinvestment worse (and hopefully there's not a backlash whereby the already well known and well established black writers are given the 'good' jobs and everyone else is left fighting for scraps).

Further, by these standards, all of the great stories and great characters from "unauthentic" writers will never get told. The writers I know are constantly double checking historical and cultural references and making sure even the simplest of words and phrases are used properly and within context of the character. They are much editors of their own work as creators. Media consumers are smarter today than they have ever been and know BS when they see it (/insert RueTheDay_WhoTalksLikeThat_meme.gif). Writers regardless of race should be given discretion and freedom to explore and develop the characters outside of that writers experience and knowledge base.


edit to add: I remember Andy Weir commenting that he wrote The Martian with the expectation that Neil deGrasse Tyson would read it. And yes the science was more flushed out than the NASA bureaucracy but Weir careful about the process of the science but also the character and plot even though I'm pretty sure Weir has never been an astronaut nor has he been to Mars. I think many writers have the same level of care and dedications to their characters and stories. Isn't it often the producers and directors that muck it all up...?
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Bruce Almighty
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3:21p, 9/14/20
AG
So is this person saying that all white characters should be written by white people and black characters written by black people and so on? Do we do that for genders as well? A movie with 8 screenwriters just screams of disaster.
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fig96
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In reply to tysker • 3:24p, 9/14/20
AG
While I get where you're coming from, I think part of what you're saying here is focusing on the wrong thing.

It isn't necessarily about "did they use the right phrase here?" though that's certainly part of it. It's more things like "I as a person of color/homosexual/whatever person have been in this situation and that isn't how people would react". You can do all the research you want to, but some situations are just going to be better told by someone who's had that personal experience.
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fig96
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In reply to tysker • 3:26p, 9/14/20
AG
tysker said:
fig96 said:
tysker said:
Isn't it just a numbers game? Most of the people in the US are non-black. When black writers, who by their own standards, are writing black-only characters, there is going to be a naturally limited market.
I have to ask...what's a "black-only" character?

I think there's some validity to overall idea, not as a hard and fast rule but it's not unfair to think that a writer of a certain ethnicity/orientation/whatever can more effectively understand the perspective of a person similar to them. The more different that character's experience might be the more true that is.
I'm not the person implementing the rules or standards so it's not my call. You should ask the people that are asking for the rules to created. They are the ones that will make such definitions and distinctions.
I missed where the term "black-only character" has been used other than by you, which is why I was asking for clarification.
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tysker
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 3:32p, 9/14/20
AG
Bruce Almighty said:
So is this person saying that all white characters should be written by white people and black characters written by black people and so on? Do we do that for genders as well? A movie with 8 screenwriters just screams of disaster.
Modern screenplays have lots of input from lots of people but there is still only one or two actual headline screenwriters, which I think is mostly due to union rules and Hollywood establishment understandings about power and payouts, etc? Right? So going forward when an actors goes 'off script' does that actor now have to be authentic to?
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TCTTS
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In reply to tysker • 3:38p, 9/14/20
AG
You're conflating two different issues, based on a pretty big (false) assumption...

First, in that tweet thread I posted, Simon is arguing exactly what you're arguing, which I absolutely agree with: in a level playing field, with enough research and meticulousness, anyone can - and should be allowed - to write for anyone. Simon and the writer he's arguing with both eventually agree on that general point. But that's not really the heart of the writer's argument he's arguing with.

It's that there are MORE THAN ENOUGH black writers "writing enough good only-black stories with good only-black characters to fill the available slots and investments." Again, you make a pretty big assumption to the contrary, and then base the rest of your argument as if that assumption were fact. Again, like I said in my post a page or two back, no one is actively, purposefully, or maliciously keeping black writers at bay. It's just that, because there are so many white people making all the decisions and naturally telling so many white stories, back writers' voices naturally get muted. So the writer Simon is arguing with ultimately agrees that yes, anyone can write for anyone, but because of the reality that black writers don't have the purchase that white writers do, if there *is* a black story to be told, let black people tell it. Not because white people don't have the ability to tell it, or shouldn't tell it, but only to give black writers more opportunity, jobs, and representation, in what seems like a pretty uneven playing field.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with the writer arguing against Simon - again, I lean more toward Simon overall - I'm just saying that I see where the other writer is coming from. Overall, it's an incredibly nuanced issue, with valid points on both sides, which is why I found the discussion to be so incredibly fascinating.
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tysker
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In reply to fig96 • 3:42p, 9/14/20
AG
fig96 said:
tysker said:
fig96 said:
tysker said:
Isn't it just a numbers game? Most of the people in the US are non-black. When black writers, who by their own standards, are writing black-only characters, there is going to be a naturally limited market.
I have to ask...what's a "black-only" character?

I think there's some validity to overall idea, not as a hard and fast rule but it's not unfair to think that a writer of a certain ethnicity/orientation/whatever can more effectively understand the perspective of a person similar to them. The more different that character's experience might be the more true that is.
I'm not the person implementing the rules or standards so it's not my call. You should ask the people that are asking for the rules to created. They are the ones that will make such definitions and distinctions.
I missed where the term "black-only character" has been used other than by you, which is why I was asking for clarification.
From the tweet TCTTS provided

Quote:
I 100% get what you're saying about a writer's empathy towards the characters; my point stands that as BIPOC we don't care about that now. We are forced to accept garbage, inauthentic representations of ourselves from white male writers while not being employed in general
He is saying BIPOC shouldn't accept BIPOC character from whites and that only BIPOC have the authenticity to tell such stories. Using this standard, he is stating we white's should not accept characters from BIPOCs. Writers instead should be siloed-off into their own experiences and knowledge. Or at least be given right of first refusal to be siloed.
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tysker
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In reply to TCTTS • 3:44p, 9/14/20
AG
TCTTS said:
You're conflating two different issues, based on a pretty big (false) assumption...

First, in that tweet thread I posted, Simon is arguing exactly what you're arguing, which I absolutely agree with: in a level playing field, with enough research and meticulousness, anyone can - and should be allowed - to write for anyone. Simon and the writer he's arguing with both eventually agree on that general point. But that's not really the heart of the writer's argument he's arguing with.

It's that there are MORE THAN ENOUGH black writers "writing enough good only-black stories with good only-black characters to fill the available slots and investments." Again, you make a pretty big assumption to the contrary, and then base the rest of your argument as if that assumption were fact. Again, like I said in my post a page or two back, no one is actively, purposefully, or maliciously keeping black writers at bay. It's just that, because there are so many white people making all the decisions and naturally telling so many white stories, back writers voices naturally get muted. So the writer Simon is arguing with ultimately agrees that yes, anyone can write for anyone, but because of the reality that black writers don't have the purchase that white writers do, if there *is* a black story to be told, let black people tell it. Not because white people don't have the ability to tell it, or shouldn't tell it, but only to give black writers more opportunity, jobs, and representation.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with the writer arguing against Simon - again, I lean more toward Simon overall - I'm just saying that I see where the other writer is coming from. Overall, it's an incredibly nuanced issue, with valid points on both sides, which is why I found the discussion to be so incredibly fascinating.
That's not a racial problem that's a money problem.
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TCTTS
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In reply to tysker • 3:46p, 9/14/20
AG
Please explain. Not asking from a place of disagreement, I'm literally curious as to what you mean.
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Lathspell
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3:54p, 9/14/20
AG
This is how you do writing people you are not:

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fig96
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In reply to tysker • 3:57p, 9/14/20
AG
Gotcha.

I think an absolute hardline stance there isn't helpful, but as TCTTS mentioned I do understand where someone might be coming from. I can totally see how it would be frustrating to see someone making a show about someone like you but not willing to invest in people who actually have an understanding of the culture or people that you're using as the basis for your story.

Not saying that's always the case, but it absolutely does happen (as in the story I posted earlier).
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tysker
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:01p, 9/14/20
AG
TCTTS said:
Please explain. Not asking from a place of disagreement, I'm literally curious as to what you mean.
You say there are more then enough of black writers and plenty of black stories to be told too? (Could there be too many?) But they arent being made. That's a financing problem. Good stories and good characters and good writers are getting picked up. The success of the Black List shows some cream is rising to the top. So that means producers aren't throwing enough money to develop these stories which I can only guess is because they perceive as being a money loser.
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TCTTS
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In reply to tysker • 6:02p, 9/14/20
AG
Or... white execs and white producers are simply and naturally more inclined to tell white stories. It's not because the black scripts they're reading aren't up to snuff. I don't why you keep landing on such an unsubstantiated claim. You act like the movie industry is a completely pure and free market where only the best stories rise to the top. When that's just not at all the case, not by a long shot.

And yes, there *is* a salary cap, so to speak. Only so many jobs to go around. But is it really too much to ask to have, say, three of 23 Marvel movies feature a cast predominantly of people of color instead of just one of 23? They're not asking for much. Just a little more piece of the pie. Yet people like you keep shrugging your shoulders and going, "Sorry, that's just how it is. Can't help you." When, in fact, we *can* actively choose to tell (even just slightly) fewer white stories by white people, and open up those lanes for more black voices.
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Humorous Username
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:21p, 9/14/20
AG
Speaking of black/brown Marvel, any word on making a couple of Captain America movies with Sam/Falcon? I bet those would be badass.

I haven't read the thousands of pages on the Marvel thread.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Humorous Username • 6:35p, 9/14/20
AG
That's basically what The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Disney+ series is, that recently resumed filming again. It was scheduled to drop in August, but with the Covid delay, looks to release either later this year or early next year.
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tysker
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:23p, 9/14/20
AG
TCTTS said:
Or... white execs and white producers are simply and naturally more inclined to tell white stories. It's not because the black scripts they're reading aren't up to snuff. I don't why you keep landing on such an unsubstantiated claim. You act like the movie industry is a completely pure and free market where only the best stories rise to the top. When that's just not at all the case, not by a long shot.

And yes, there *is* a salary cap, so to speak. Only so many jobs to go around. But is it really too much to ask to have, say, three of 23 Marvel movies feature a cast predominantly of people of color instead of just one of 23? They're not asking for much. Just a little more piece of the pie. Yet people like you keep shrugging your shoulders and going, "Sorry, that's just how it is. Can't help you." When, in fact, we *can* actively choose to tell (even just slightly) fewer white stories by white people, and open up those lanes for more black voices.
I'm certain there is bias against certain stories being 'purchased' and distributed. But why are 'black scripts' (i think we can agree that is a crappy phrase, I wish we had a better way of describing it) not being made more frequently? I would argue that's a likely more a money issue over racial issue. If anything because there are more white people in the US and black people are generally less affluent and have less disposable income for entertainment like movies. So there's just less profit to be had for the same amount of effort. But are those 'smaller' stories just being shelved? No one is telling them? There are literally thousands of filmmakers out there and more venues than we could ever imagine even 10 years ago. It seems more like the industry needs a lot more black producers over writers.

Also with so many outlets more stories of all kinds can be told to more people. But that's not what Simon's topic is about. His 'opponent' is suggesting that only BIPOC should get a first pass on certain BIPOC characters. I'm not inclined to believe that giving certain people first priority or first access of workflow based on something arbitrary like skin tone is all that ethical as I'm against giving preferential treatment based on skin color. And more importantly skin color =/ authenticity. Biracial kids deal with this crap all the time. And for such an important industry like Hollywood to sanction such perceptions is off putting.

Edit to add I guess Im just restating Simon when he argues:
" Arguments of industry inclusion are worthy and essential. Transmuting them to a claim that art should systemically avoid and eschew our common humanity is pathetic. Empathy is existential to art. It's why we try."
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A New Hope
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7:42p, 9/14/20
I guess black panther would've been out of the running.
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:37p, 9/14/20
AG
Ah. Forgot about that series. Would definitely watch a movie or two with them in it.
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In reply to fig96 • 12:20a, 9/15/20
fig96
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In reply to [removed post] • 1:44a, 9/15/20
AG
third coast.. said:
But not everyone black/gay/whatever person will act the same way in every scenario, but the people arguing for this act like everyone like them should only think like them. It just boils back down to diversity of skin not diversity of thought.
Were that what I said or implied I would totally agree with you. But you're missing the point, it's not about "what does this person think" but their experience.

For example, we (or at least a lot of us here) went to Texas A&M and probably attended football games, went to Yell Practice, Silver Taps, etc., and have a lot of shared experiences. If someone who hadn't experienced that tried to write about it, they'd most likely miss a lot of the subtle truths and details no matter how much research they did.

I don't know what it's like to be a female who thinks someone is following them late at night, and I've never been a person of color pulled over by the police in an isolated area. And there's dozens of other examples we could come up with in a few minutes.

You're absolutely right that people of the same ethnicity or background don't necessarily think the same. But they will have a lot of the same shared experiences that someone who isn't of that background just won't have.
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TCTTS
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In reply to fig96 • 2:47a, 9/15/20
AG
Very well said.
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In reply to fig96 • 3:09a, 9/15/20
fig96
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In reply to [removed post] • 9:21a, 9/15/20
AG
I'll give this one last shot, because I'm not sure if you're being willfully ignorant or suffering from a genuine lack of reading comprehension.

Quote:
Are you telling me thst all black people have the same experience, or all women or gay people?
No. Nooooooooooo. NO.

How in the world do you take "we all went to Texas A&M and have a lot of shared experience" and arrive at "so all black people have the same experience"?

Quote:
What shared experiences those groups have are absolutely things they may be uniquely qualified to talk about, but to act like all of those people are the only ones that can write about xyz because they are black/gay/female BECAUSE they are those things and not because they experienced XYZ is ludicrous and exactly the kind of identity pokitics that is ruining everything.
I didn't say this. No one here is saying this. My entire post was that it's about what they've experienced.

And I clarified a bit up the page that it's definitely not a hard and fast rule, but I can understand how it might be frustrating for someone to be using people like you as a basis for their story but not have a genuine understanding of your culture or people.
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tysker
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In reply to fig96 • 9:39a, 9/15/20
AG
Please excuse me because I don't have the words to explain why but I think there is an important distinction in your shared experience examples.

Yell practices occur dozens of times a year many of which are attended by thousands of people all at the same time. So there are literally thousands of individual subtle truths to be experienced and examined with any given event. Yes there's difference between attending the Super Bowl and playing in the Super Bowl but there also a kind of shared truth that all people at that event kind of know and understand.

However being followed down a dark alley or being pulled over by police in an isolated area is, almost by definition, an intimate, solitary experience. Yes these events occur but in the real world they happen infrequently and the vast majority result in mundane outcomes. However there is a much darker or sinister downside to these events which makes for much more spirited and saucier storytelling. I would argue because a large number of people have never experienced these events they rely on the fanciful extreme examples and then consider the extreme stories to be more common than they truly are. There is a lot more variability and flexibility to these extreme stories because the events are so very intimate and personal and while they happen so infrequently the extreme negative outcomes drive storytelling and narratives.

Its why parables and fables and fairy tales work so well. We parents know the likelihood of our children being kidnapped from our front yard is infinitesimally small but it still freaks you out (and you can argue that fear has changed society). Low probability events with high cost outcomes make for great stories.

So who should we as consumers trust more to properly depict the experience of a women walking down a dark alley or a black man pulled over? Do we believe more a female who has never been followed but is imagining the experience or male who has been followed and attacked? Do we believe a black man that grew up in NYC and never learned to drive or an hispanic guy that worked as a mule? As a consumer, I don't care who wrote it as long as the story is told well and is believable enough. Simon's debater suggests that BIPOC should get first dibs on certain characters as if BIPOC have some special power, knowledge or experience that non-BIPOC writers don't have. While I think the sentiment on its face makes sense, I'm not sure it's true enough and probably not sustainable enough long-term to make such a discriminatory practice an industry standard.

From my vantage point, it seems writers are not the problem. The producers and showrunners and finance people are the problem. The solution presented by Simon's debater will not ultimately solve Hollywood's implicit bias problem and could potentially make it worse.
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fig96
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In reply to tysker • 9:56a, 9/15/20
AG
You're trying to distill down something that I've clearly said as a generalization and again have clearly said isn't a hard and fast rule.

Are there differences in shared experience, even within a culture or neighborhood? Absolutely, you could have someone who grew up in abject poverty with two parents who worked hard and love their kids vs someone else who was stuck with an abusive drug addicted parent. But even within those two extremes there's going to be a lot of shared experience being in that neighborhood, going to the same schools, seeing violence and drug use around them, etc.

Is it possible that someone without any firsthand experience can write a character who's nothing like them? Yes. Is it likely that someone who's been through those situations and lived them will have a better understanding of what it's actually like? Also yes.

Neither TCTTS nor I nor anyone has said that Simon is completely in the right, he's clearly stated the opposite and I don't see how anything I've said supports that.
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tysker
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In reply to fig96 • 10:28a, 9/15/20
AG
I dont mean to single you out if that's how it is coming across. I think the generalizations are fine but the actual rule creation, application and implementation of those rules would be much harder than that twitter debate suggests. Generalizations are easy but it's those granular, marginal words that have significant meaning and impact (for writers of fictions and attorneys (same difference?)). Clearly none of us here outside of TCTTS has any clue or clarity as to what is really going on from day-to-day and in writer's room and production meetings.

Hollywood is totally allowed to make up its own rules and standards and they don't have to make sense to us plebes. That's why I asked way back on this thread why would the Academy create a race/gender/sexual orientation rule framework that most movies and studios were already following and do as a natural course of business? I said earlier defining authenticity is a fool's errand and worst case can be dangerous (maybe like defining gender, race, sexual preference?). What happens within the industry if/when those standards get tested or pushed? Who will regulate the conflicts and who will police the police?
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In reply to fig96 • 1:41p, 9/15/20
tysker
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12:25p, 9/16/20
AG
Several questions as I am dealing with some of my own firm's reporting and disclosure requirements:

Will need these inclusivity numbers be made a part of the Academy application process? Will the questionnaires be a given to Academy voters before or after nominations? If the data is being collected doesn't it make sense to let that data be known as part of the nomination and voting process? Would these questionnaires ever be made public? Also what will be process for verification and accuracy and what happens if there is a question or conflict regarding correctness?

I'm sure there are answers to some of these questions out there but I don't really know where to look.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to tysker • 3:13p, 9/16/20
AG
IMO the best thing the Academy could do is increase the diversity and transparency of their Oscar voting members.
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