htxag09 said:

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Also, probably a terrible game move, but I do really respect Jag for sticking to his word and his alliance and keeping Matt.....

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Agreed.

It was cerie. She was calling herself a senior citizen and basically bashing the game that they have made the entire thing a physical competition.

If it's going to be all physical then put only athletic 20-30yr olds and you have basically the challenge. But the game is supposed to be social and relationship based.

zap said:

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htxag09 said:

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Also, probably a terrible game move, but I do really respect Jag for sticking to his word and his alliance and keeping Matt.....

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Agreed.

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I respect him also. But also not the point. One of the feed watchers I saw made a good point that the game is to get to the end. Not be a good person. She misses how it was the best manipulator/schemer who won because they did things people wouldn't expect

Jag was flirting with the idea of voting out Matt but felt bad due to their friendship. If Jag wins the final HoH I think he votes out Matt.

I'm not sure why the jury is mad and bitter with Jag. Every one of them except Cam said if they won HoH they were going after him. They said it on the show and they said it when talking to Julie. He got them before they got to him. Last I checked they were all playing in the HoH and PoV.

Didn't read the screen rant article but the show didn't show how Cirie and Felicia talking ugly about people behind their backs especially about Bowie Jane.

Personally I think it's not being mad at him. He played the game in front of him. But he had everyone after him because he only had a physical game. And that isn't supposed to be able to carry you. They're mad that those who played a better social game never got a chance to take him out.

If matt loses it is because he had the opportunity to cut him at 5 and didn't. It was the only opportunity other than never using his power to save him in the first place.

I'd argue he had a social game, just not with them. And, to be frank, they sucked so he never needed them.

Matt saved him from elimination, he partnered with Cam well enough that Cam didn't target him during his streak. He's formed a solid alliance with Matt and Bowie Jane. They've won the last 6 HOH's and have kept him safe (He only won 2 of those 6).

The mafia (Jag, Matt, and Bowie) have won the last 12 straight competitions, HoHs and PoVs. It will be 13 with this final HoH. That pretty impressive. They have steamrolled through the competitions for almost 2 months.

Wonder if the jury will ever give Bowie her due. They think she was a floater which in hindsight she was until she joined Matt and Jag. She has won 3 HoH and in an alliance that has taken control and been involved for the people evicted to the jury house. Her social game may not be great and I'm not saying she is a great competitor but she deserves some due.

Bowie has played better than most, but it's hard to say she has done more than Matt and Jag. She is very much an appeaser/lackey. It will be hard for her to shake that stigma if she makes final two.

Sports-Ag said:

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The mafia (Jag, Matt, and Bowie) have won the last 12 straight competitions, HoHs and PoVs. It will be 13 with this final HoH. That pretty impressive. They have steamrolled through the competitions for almost 2 months.

Wonder if the jury will ever give Bowie her due. They think she was a floater which in hindsight she was until she joined Matt and Jag. She has won 3 HoH and in an alliance that has taken control and been involved for the people evicted to the jury house. Her social game may not be great and I'm not saying she is a great competitor but she deserves some due.

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Correct. but the point folks online make and myself in this discussion is that this is ISNT The Challenge. That is a show where people do nothing but compete.

Big Brother is supposed to be social, manipulative, scheming, lieing, working in the shadows and strategic. The competitions arent supposed to be solely physical or physical based. When you have to do something physical in order to complete a puzzle or in order to solve a riddle the competition is a physical competition and not a mental one.

I am not a feminist or ageist or any other damn thing but when you look at the stats and like 90% of competitions are won by athletic men...why even bother putting normal people, or smarter social people or older people...they just fodder to be picked off by the more physical players.

I'd like to see a comprehensive list of all challenges, (both HOH and POV) to really understand if they were skewed toward youth/athleticism.

Jag's last veto win was a 95% mental game (matching events and days.)

zap said:

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I'd like to see a comprehensive list of all challenges, (both HOH and POV) to really understand if they were skewed toward youth/athleticism.

Jag's last veto win was a 95% mental game (matching events and days.)

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Some of the challenges could be easily modified to remove the physical components and make it more of a mental challenge. Get rid of the zipline on the BB Comic Books challenge, and replace it with something where to comic books only show for a couple of seconds, but you can't show them unless a certain amount of time has passed. Or, you could shorten the time by taking a penalty (being a have-not, losing your chance to play in the PoV, etc.). I love the miniature stacking challenge, and any of the ones where you have to drop the ball into a number slot (though that one seems like it's luck most of the time). There are ways to modify some of these physical challenges and make them more mental.

zap said:

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Bowie has played better than most, but it's hard to say she has done more than Matt and Jag. She is very much an appeaser/lackey. It will be hard for her to shake that stigma if she makes final two.

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Bowie's complete disdain for actually playing the game should rule her out.

Oh man a whole other angle I completely forgot about that is even worse for Jag's game than the overuse of physical competitions is allowing him to play in back to back HOH competitions.

Jag won part 2 of the HoH

If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I feel like the jury doesn't respect Bowie Jane's game. They see her as a floater and a hanger-on (fair or not).

I think either Matt or Jag would beat her unanimously.

Bowie definitely has a likability problem but she has put together a solid resume (3 HOHs and has never been on the block) and there's always a chance the women (who hold a majority on the jury) could decide to go the solidarity route.

/edit: she'll be on the block for the last live eviction but that was from the process of elimination not an actual nomination

CheeseSndwch said:

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Bowie definitely has a likability problem but she has put together a solid resume (3 HOHs and has never been on the block) and there's always a chance the women (who hold a majority on the jury) could decide to go the solidarity route.

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True. But if Matt makes the final two, I see him winning it. They all like him.

Rex Racer said:

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htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I feel like the jury doesn't respect Bowie Jane's game. They see her as a floater and a hanger-on (fair or not).

I think either Matt or Jag would beat her unanimously.

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I could see that. Like I said, I didn't watch the feeds, but that's kind of how she was portrayed on the show. Kind of crazy, though, doesn't she have about as many comp wins as Matt?

Rex Racer said:

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htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I feel like the jury doesn't respect Bowie Jane's game. They see her as a floater and a hanger-on (fair or not).

I think either Matt or Jag would beat her unanimously.

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If she would have taken the shot to split up Matt / Jag under her 2nd HoH, that would have likely garnered her much more respect and potentially a chance of winning.

But, she chose the safety of staying in the game as long as possible, even though her chances of winning the whole thing pretty much were shot.

Many players just like being there above winning.

htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I feel like the jury doesn't respect Bowie Jane's game. They see her as a floater and a hanger-on (fair or not).

I think either Matt or Jag would beat her unanimously.

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I could see that. Like I said, I didn't watch the feeds, but that's kind of how she was portrayed on the show. Kind of crazy, though, doesn't she have about as many comp wins as Matt?

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I think she actually has the most HoH wins on the season. Jag has the most comp wins, but many of his were veto wins.

htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I think if Matt is in final 2 he wins either way

She has 3 and they were all the exact same competition, quiz photo identification followed by a tie breaker

Rex Racer said:

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htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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htxag09 said:

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Rex Racer said:

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Bubblez said:

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If Matt and Jag take each other, I hope the one that won part 3 and thus failed to cut the other loses.

Not making a big move should be punished as much as making a big move gets rewarded. They both should beat BJ.

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If Matt wins part 3 and takes Jag, then he's in this situation by double, having nullified Jag's eviction and then taken him to final 2.

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Am I the only one who thinks Matt may have a better shot taking Jag than Bowie?

I'll preface by saying I don't watch the live feeds so have no idea the overall social game Bowie had, but feel like it was better than Jag's......

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I feel like the jury doesn't respect Bowie Jane's game. They see her as a floater and a hanger-on (fair or not).

I think either Matt or Jag would beat her unanimously.

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I could see that. Like I said, I didn't watch the feeds, but that's kind of how she was portrayed on the show. Kind of crazy, though, doesn't she have about as many comp wins as Matt?

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I think she actually has the most HoH wins on the season. Jag has the most comp wins, but many of his were veto wins.

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Julie mentioned that he set some kind of record. Don't know if it was total comp wins, PoV wins, or what, but he did set a record.

Its total comp wins.

zap said:

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Interesting article in defense of Jagateshwar "Jag" Bains:

https://www.cinemablend.com/television/my-hottest-big-brother-25-take-is-about-jag-bains

"The idea that Jag's 11-win success should be diminished, or that it's proof of a broken system, is laughable, since achieving such a feat takes true talent that detractors aren't willing to consider."

"For Jag, he really only needed a solid alliance with Matt, and it clearly worked out pretty well for him. Matt did his part in saving Jag, and the latter has repaid that debt tenfold by now with numerous veto competitions and HOH wins. Sure, it's not as sexy or dangerous as a multi-person alliance with shifting allegiances and blindsides, but it's way more effective."

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No one is saying it isn't impressive. Personally I'm not upset about it and if he wins he deserves it (this isn't like voting against Paul) but the complaint in my opinion is the fact that big brother isnt supposed to be a game where you have to win to stay alive. He did.

I heard a stat he was safe in like all but 4 elimination votes...and one of those he was sent home and then saved

I think it shows they got the strong players out early.

I mean outside of Matt and Bowie, who was really worth even aligning with after cam? With as worthless as cirie, Felicia, America, etc were, aligning with them wouldnot help anyone's game.

They talked big. This is my veto! I've been waiting for this days veto all season! Time to win. But never delivered.

Jag probably doesn't win as many comps as he does if you have Reilly, Hisam, maybe Luke? In the house….

Thats kind of the point...I feel like you're exactly making my point. Had there been more physical people then competitions are fine, its isnt what BB was designed as but sure it would be interesting. But the way the game was designed this year and recent years it is pointless to have people like cerie/ felicia/ america(who I think against more normal people could have beat them in slightly athletic comps)

Youve said you didnt watch or follow feeds...so I can see why you considered cerie worthless. But that just wasnt the case. She is absolutlely the best game player, manipulator, schemer etc this year. Any time someone was wronged she knew what to say to them to get them to join her side and influence their ideas. the "fields family" was a real thing and she played it spectacularly. I honestly think had she not had jared around to blow up a lot of her work and had matt filled his physical role those two would have been unstoppable.

Overall i agree with you. I do disagree that it was all physical comps. They had luck comps (score rolling ball down a pinball deal) mental comps, etc. What's the breakdown? No idea, I'd like to know though.

But just like people dis jag for not having a social game. You can do the same for cirie and Felicia for not having a comp game. You need both. And, yes, they have zero chance to win a wall comp. But they still couldn't deliver on comps that were mental or even the comps like rolling balls and knocking over other targets. Which is a good example of bad gameplay. Cirie and Felicia should have teamed up and gone for jag and Matt vs targeting each other.

But honestly didn't matter if it was a physical or mental comp. The combo of Matt, Bowie, and jag had the best chance to win.

Edit: I also agree that I would I have liked to see her without jarred. He definitely held her back and did everything he could to blow her game up. But even still, how many people have ever won BB with 0, or 1, comp win(s).

I'm not going to get into whether he deserves to win or not, but from a viewer's perspective it makes it pretty boring when someone racks up comp wins like this.