Decay said:

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They better be saving navigators as a huge gross reveal in Messiah

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toucan82 said:

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dumb question: is "Flight of the Navigator" set in the Dune universe?

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PDWT_12 said:

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Guess it will be quiet in here until the weekend. A couple of more thoughts now that I've had a full day thinking about it.

-Greig Fraser is is on an unbelievable run as a cinematographer. His last four films have been Dune: Part Two, The Creator (meh movie but looked incredible), The Batman, and Dune. Some amazing shots in this movie.

-Start thinking about favorite scenes, I think Paul riding the sandworm, his speech as he declares himself Lisan al Gaib, Feyd in the arena, the Fremen raid on the spice crawler, and obviously the final battle sequence are probably up there.

-I really liked Bardem taking on the role of very small comic relief moments that had kind of been Duncan Idaho/Mamoa's role in Part 1.

-The score for this is so good. Been listening to it all day. I think we are very lucky that Hans Zimmer went with DV to do the Dunes, creating something so unique and different from the style that had maybe grown a little stale under Nolan, and cementing himself as one of the greatest of all time. Simultaneously clearing the path for Ludwig to work with Nolan, which gave me one of my favorite scores of the last several years in Oppenheimer.

As far as book stuff goes (Messiah Spoilers Below):

I liked the change of making Chani very reluctant to the whole prophecy idea. Added tension and gave her character some agency. And her clearly not being content to just be his side piece makes things very interesting for the hopeful end of the trilogy. In theory she needs to be with Paul because her giving birth is so huge for the storyline, but if they aren't interested in doing Children of Dune... does it matter? Very interested to see where they go form here.

Good move to have Alia speak as a fetus rather than trying to put a kid in the role. Excited to see what ATJ can do in that part.

That's really all I have as far as major differences go. I hope this thing makes a boatload of money and DV can feel comfortable taking his time and bringing us a great Messiah adaptation.

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Yes and no. Paul is the result of generations of Bene Gesserit breeding, which allowed him to be the first male to survive the worm piss/use the voice. He was also trained as a Mentat (they don't really touch on this in the movie) which are humans able to perform complex mathematical problems that have been used to replace computers ever since they had a big war against AI thousands of years ago. Which is also why everything has pretty simple technology mixed with the very advanced technology, because they don't really use computers for anything. This is also why the spice is so important to the Empire, because it helps the navigators to make even more complex calculations to jump through space to other planets and not hit anything.


So Paul is something special. He basically has the brain of a super computer, and the bene Gesserit power mixed with the spice influence allows him to see millions of different outcomes based upon his decisions. When he drinks the worm piss, it connects him with all of the past bene gesserit (I think, it could have been his male ancestors instead) to give him the wisdom of their experience to make decisions. He's almost a god.

On the religion side, The Bene Gesserit have set up different religions with different prophecies over different planets over the last 10,000 years that are aimed at allowing them to maintain control over the populace on these planets if any house noble gets too out of hand. Even after the events of the second movie, the BG expect to be able to control Paul and reassert control over the empire by pulling at his strings.

Your last question again isn't touched on in the movies, but is explained in the books. The lasers were god-like weapons for a while until the invention of the shield they all use. If you hit a shield with one of those lasers, then it causes a nuclear detonation on each end of the laser shot. The shield also blocks anything moving too fast. So as a result, combat warfare evolved to swords/knives and the missiles we saw in the first movie that slow down enough to penetrate the shields. The lasers can be used in the desert though, because since the shields cause vibrations, they immediately attract the sand worms, so nobody uses them out there.

Circling back to your first question, one of the big themes of Dune is the concept of fate versus free will, and Paul's abilities are an example of that. Is it fate for him to be the messiah because of his powers/the religion, or is he just choosing to become it to get what he wants?

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aTmAg said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Yes and no. Paul is the result of generations of Bene Gesserit breeding, which allowed him to be the first male to survive the worm piss/use the voice. He was also trained as a Mentat (they don't really touch on this in the movie) which are humans able to perform complex mathematical problems that have been used to replace computers ever since they had a big war against AI thousands of years ago. Which is also why everything has pretty simple technology mixed with the very advanced technology, because they don't really use computers for anything. This is also why the spice is so important to the Empire, because it helps the navigators to make even more complex calculations to jump through space to other planets and not hit anything.


So Paul is something special. He basically has the brain of a super computer, and the bene Gesserit power mixed with the spice influence allows him to see millions of different outcomes based upon his decisions. When he drinks the worm piss, it connects him with all of the past bene gesserit (I think, it could have been his male ancestors instead) to give him the wisdom of their experience to make decisions. He's almost a god.

On the religion side, The Bene Gesserit have set up different religions with different prophecies over different planets over the last 10,000 years that are aimed at allowing them to maintain control over the populace on these planets if any house noble gets too out of hand. Even after the events of the second movie, the BG expect to be able to control Paul and reassert control over the empire by pulling at his strings.

Your last question again isn't touched on in the movies, but is explained in the books. The lasers were god-like weapons for a while until the invention of the shield they all use. If you hit a shield with one of those lasers, then it causes a nuclear detonation on each end of the laser shot. The shield also blocks anything moving too fast. So as a result, combat warfare evolved to swords/knives and the missiles we saw in the first movie that slow down enough to penetrate the shields. The lasers can be used in the desert though, because since the shields cause vibrations, they immediately attract the sand worms, so nobody uses them out there.

Circling back to your first question, one of the big themes of Dune is the concept of fate versus free will, and Paul's abilities are an example of that. Is it fate for him to be the messiah because of his powers/the religion, or is he just choosing to become it to get what he wants?

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So Paul isn't really "seeing" the future? He is sorta calculating the possibilities? That is sorta like Foundation which was written by Asimov before chaos theory was a thing. Now we know that is basically impossible. It's like the 3 body problem where a planet being moved by 1 mm would DRASTICALLY change the future and that makes it basically impossible to calculate.

When were these books written?

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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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The original book was published in 1965 I believe.

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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aTmAg said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Yes and no. Paul is the result of generations of Bene Gesserit breeding, which allowed him to be the first male to survive the worm piss/use the voice. He was also trained as a Mentat (they don't really touch on this in the movie) which are humans able to perform complex mathematical problems that have been used to replace computers ever since they had a big war against AI thousands of years ago. Which is also why everything has pretty simple technology mixed with the very advanced technology, because they don't really use computers for anything. This is also why the spice is so important to the Empire, because it helps the navigators to make even more complex calculations to jump through space to other planets and not hit anything.


So Paul is something special. He basically has the brain of a super computer, and the bene Gesserit power mixed with the spice influence allows him to see millions of different outcomes based upon his decisions. When he drinks the worm piss, it connects him with all of the past bene gesserit (I think, it could have been his male ancestors instead) to give him the wisdom of their experience to make decisions. He's almost a god.

On the religion side, The Bene Gesserit have set up different religions with different prophecies over different planets over the last 10,000 years that are aimed at allowing them to maintain control over the populace on these planets if any house noble gets too out of hand. Even after the events of the second movie, the BG expect to be able to control Paul and reassert control over the empire by pulling at his strings.

Your last question again isn't touched on in the movies, but is explained in the books. The lasers were god-like weapons for a while until the invention of the shield they all use. If you hit a shield with one of those lasers, then it causes a nuclear detonation on each end of the laser shot. The shield also blocks anything moving too fast. So as a result, combat warfare evolved to swords/knives and the missiles we saw in the first movie that slow down enough to penetrate the shields. The lasers can be used in the desert though, because since the shields cause vibrations, they immediately attract the sand worms, so nobody uses them out there.

Circling back to your first question, one of the big themes of Dune is the concept of fate versus free will, and Paul's abilities are an example of that. Is it fate for him to be the messiah because of his powers/the religion, or is he just choosing to become it to get what he wants?

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So Paul isn't really "seeing" the future? He is sorta calculating the possibilities? That is sorta like Foundation which was written by Asimov before chaos theory was a thing. Now we know that is basically impossible. It's like the 3 body problem where a planet being moved by 1 mm would DRASTICALLY change the future and that makes it basically impossible to calculate.

When were these books written?

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Yes, and again, not really touched on in the movies, but he can't literally see everything. For example, the fight with Jamis and the fight with Feyd, those are described as blind points in his sight. He can see the outcomes of what could happen, but he doesn't know exactly what his opponent is going to do when there is a major turning point in his life. He relying on his own skill when these events happen. I can't remember if they call them nexus points or something else, but the book has some term for them.

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G.I.Bro said:

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There is less doubt in the books iirc, but one of Herbert's themes was not to trust charismatic leaders. It doesn't really work out for anyone, so in hindsight the reader is meant to think "maybe they shouldn't have followed him"

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Decay said:

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But also he can see the future for real

Look it's complicated

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