I appreciate that!

dermdoc said:

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747Ag said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Discouraging end of the week as I came to find out one of the teacher's I often go to for my own edification self reported an inappropriate relationship between himself and another woman. There are not any further details right now, but it is something that has seemingly disqualified him from his current teaching position at Trinity Bible in Dallas.

I am taking it as a good reminder to stay vigilant for both myself and men I walk with in daily life, especially when it comes to things of this nature. I thought I would share with you all as we can often think that things like this cannot happen to us.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."
- 1 Peter 5:8

It has also humbling since my knee jerk reaction was to be angry, but at the end of the day we are all broken. I am praying for his family and all of those who have been impacted by his ministry - that the follow up to this would be a story and picture of repentance, similar to that of David.

"The wisest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin, the strongest man in the Bible fell to sexual sin, and the godliest man in the Bible fell to sexual sin. For me to think I'm above falling into this sin is to think that I'm wiser than Solomon, stronger than Samson, and godlier than King David.
- Voddie Baucham

---

Sorry for this situation. And thank you for the reminder for vigilance. I know all to well similar temptations and I've chosen to accept it as a cross Our Blessed Lord wishes me to bear to hone me. Staying humble. Praying more. Relying upon Him more and more.

---

Amen. It is so easy to slip and fail.

---

YESSIR

Thank you for sharing and for the wise reminder. Praying for all involved.

And Pastor Baucham has such a great ability to weave several seemingly disconnected points into a memorable lesson.

The men in our Sunday small group recently started meeting every other week…one of the tenets of the group is to hold each other accountable..

Very sad to hear the relationship was ongoing over the past 5 years and was only brought to light because the woman's father found out. This has to be devastating for the family. I pray God will be gracious in restoring Dr. Lawson. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to go from renowned pastor/theologian to pew dweller.

Stay vigilant, indeed.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Discouraging end of the week as I came to find out one of the teacher's I often go to for my own edification self reported an inappropriate relationship between himself and another woman. There are not any further details right now, but it is something that has seemingly disqualified him from his current teaching position at Trinity Bible in Dallas.

I am taking it as a good reminder to stay vigilant for both myself and men I walk with in daily life, especially when it comes to things of this nature. I thought I would share with you all as we can often think that things like this cannot happen to us.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."
- 1 Peter 5:8

It has also humbling since my knee jerk reaction was to be angry, but at the end of the day we are all broken. I am praying for his family and all of those who have been impacted by his ministry - that the follow up to this would be a story and picture of repentance, similar to that of David.

"The wisest man in the Bible fell into sexual sin, the strongest man in the Bible fell to sexual sin, and the godliest man in the Bible fell to sexual sin. For me to think I'm above falling into this sin is to think that I'm wiser than Solomon, stronger than Samson, and godlier than King David.
- Voddie Baucham

---

Sorry to hear but thank you for the reminder. We also need to have these same considerations for people outside of our own daily periphery. I think there is an easy tendency in todays climate in America to be considerate for the brokenness of people within our proximity but more condemning of those outside of it. All have fallen short of the Glory of God.

"Every saint has a past,
Ever sinner has a future."

Mostly Peaceful said:

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Steve Lawson posted yesterday what appears to me a genuine and heartfelt apology for his grievous error. It sounds like he is taking all the right steps to understand how this took place and to prevent it from happening again. This is very encouraging to see and goes far beyond the responses I think we typically see from pastors caught up in similar scandals. Continued prayers for Lawson and his family as they work through this difficult time.

Quote:

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It is with a shattered heart that I write this letter. I have sinned grievously against the Lord, against my wife, my family, and against countless numbers of you by having a sinful relationship with a woman not my wife. I am deeply broken that I have betrayed and deceived my wife, devastated my children, brought shame to the name of Christ, reproach upon His church, and harm to many ministries.
You may wonder why I have been silent and largely invisible since the news of my sin became known. I have needed the time to search my own soul to determine that my repentance is real.
I alone am responsible for my sin. I have confessed my sin to the Lord, to my wife, and my family, and have repented of it. I have spent the past months searching my heart to discover the roots of my sin and mortifying them by the grace of God. I hate my sin, weep over my sin, and have turned from it.


My sin carries enormous consequences, and I will be living with those for the rest of my life. Over the years, many have looked to me for spiritual guidance, and I have failed you. I beg for your forgiveness.
I have been undergoing extensive counseling for the last five months to face the hard questions I need to address. I have dealt with sin issues that have been painfully exposed in my heart. I have submitted myself in weekly accountability to two pastors and to the elders of a local congregation, who have shepherded my soul. I am also under the oversight of an accountability team who monitor my progress and give me wise counsel in the decisions I have to make.
I am growing in grace, reading and absorbing the Word of God, putting it into practice, praying, and meeting with other believers. I am involved in the life of the church, attending and participating in prayer meetings, Sunday school, the worship service, and taking communion weekly. I am being fed the Word in the mid-week Bible study. Please pray for my spiritual growth into Christlikeness as I follow Him moment by moment during this recovery season.

---

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Great to hear!

Hoping he uses his situation all for the glory of God.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hoping he uses his situation all for the glory of God.

---

Needs to seriously rethink his hellfire and brimstone stuff after this in my opinion. From what I have read about Dr. Lawson, I am skeptical. He should have stated he was wrong for all his condemnation.

If you are seeking mercy, preach it for the ones you are condemning. Guy has preached eternal torment for people who did nothing like he did.

And do not be a hypocrite.

Doubt he would do the same for folks like me who do not agree with him
https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

He could use this for a huge platform for forgiveness and love. But he will not.

---

From the link

"God will be in hell and God will be the one inflicting the punishment."

Where is that in the Bible, Dr. Lawson? When did Jesus, the incarnation of God, ever inflict punishment on people? Even when the disciples asked Him to?

Sorry, as a Christian who knows the Lord, this makes me angry. And, I know I am commanded to by my Lord Jesus Christ, it is very hard for me to take his repentance seriously.

Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

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God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hoping he uses his situation all for the glory of God.

---

Needs to seriously rethink his hellfire and brimstone stuff after this in my opinion. From what I have read about Dr. Lawson, I am skeptical. He should have stated he was wrong for all his condemnation.

If you are seeking mercy, preach it for the ones you are condemning. Guy has preached eternal torment for people who did nothing like he did.

And do not be a hypocrite.

Doubt he would do the same for folks like me who do not agree with him
https://baptistnews.com/article/steve-lawson-preached-fire-and-brimstone-except-for-himself/

He could use this for a huge platform for forgiveness and love. But he will not.

---

"God will be in hell and God will be the one inflicting the punishment."

---

Is your understanding that God is not in hell? There is no hell?

If God is not inflicting the punishment, then who is? Or is there no punishment?

---

I do not think Scripture clearly says what "hell" is or what kind of punishment is inflicted. Do you?

I would be extremely curious to hear your views, as. Reformed/Calvinist, on this and the Scripture to support what Lawson is saying.

Maybe I am wrong and you can prove I am. Seriously, I want to learn.

But I have read the entire Bible probably 20 times and can not find Lawson's theology and descriptions. Or Washer's. Or Macarthur's. Or Piper's.

I am willing to believe something if it can be proven in Scripture. I do not see it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

I have no problem with that theology as it is very similar to what the Orthodox believe. But, using your standards, what Sproul said is not stated in Scripture to my knowledge.

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but Lawson seems to be saying that God is actively inflicting punishment and implies He is enjoying it.

And of course, the elephant in the room is, in Reformed/Calvinist theology, God creates people pre ordained to "hell". Sure, "passing over" is the term used rather than an active process, but the result is the same, correct?

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

This is where it gets frustrating my friend. I have read numerous Reformed/Calvinist theologians say the Scripture has to mean "all kinds of men" when it clearly does not say that. And these are the same guys who demand strict inerrancy. It drives me crazy.

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

I really shouldn't read these Reformed/Calvinist guys as it raises my blood pressure.

Think we have been through this before. I am in no way a Greek or Hebrew expert but we obviously need to consider the root word and language being used. Again, I am a bit out of my lane here, but it seems to me it is entirely within the scope of the Greek language for "all" to be a bit nuanced.

Strong's G3956 - pas

Quote:

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About half of its occurrences can be translated with "all" albeit often with added nuances such as "all of them" or "the whole of it" or "every one" or "all kinds of", and so on

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https://www.abarim-publications.com/DictionaryG/p/p-a-sfin.html#:~:text=The%20adjective%20%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%82%20(pas)%20declines,(for%20Cleopater%20and%20Antipater).

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

---

Just because someone sins does not mean he has "fallen away"; that's talking about people who suddenly say they no longer believe in God. We all sin, even you. I'm sure you've "preached" out of one side of your mouth while speaking the very thing you preached agaisnt out of the other, we all have.

Only God truly knows our heart and the best we can do is take Lawson at his word - that's he's grieving his sin and truly repentant.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

---

Just because someone sins does not mean he has "fallen away"; that's talking about people who suddenly say they no longer believe in God. We all sin, even you. I'm sure you've "preached" out of one side of your mouth while speaking the very thing you preached agaisnt out of the other, we all have.

Only God truly knows our heart and the best we can do is take Lawson at his word - that's he's grieving his sin and truly repentant.

---

Oh I know I am a sinner. That is why I could never preach or advocate a condemning message. Who am I to condemn anyone? Did not Paul allude to the same thought?

That is why I can't understand this type of preaching. Pastors and priests should of all people be humble in my opinion.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

---

Just because someone sins does not mean he has "fallen away"; that's talking about people who suddenly say they no longer believe in God. We all sin, even you. I'm sure you've "preached" out of one side of your mouth while speaking the very thing you preached agaisnt out of the other, we all have.

Only God truly knows our heart and the best we can do is take Lawson at his word - that's he's grieving his sin and truly repentant.

---

And if Lawson is of the "elect" what difference does it make in Reformed theology? And I am not trying to be snarky, I truly do not understand the theology.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

---

Just because someone sins does not mean he has "fallen away"; that's talking about people who suddenly say they no longer believe in God. We all sin, even you. I'm sure you've "preached" out of one side of your mouth while speaking the very thing you preached agaisnt out of the other, we all have.

Only God truly knows our heart and the best we can do is take Lawson at his word - that's he's grieving his sin and truly repentant.

---

Oh I know I am a sinner. That is why I could never preach or advocate a condemning message. Who am I to condemn anyone? Did not Paul allude to the same thought?

That is why I can't understand this type of preaching. Pastors and priests should of all people be humble in my opinion.

---

They aren't personally condemning anyone; they are condemning those who do not know the Lord, as they should. People need to be warned, they must be told the whole truth. If people do not understand they are sinners in need of a savior there is no hope for them.

AGC said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, "Hell is a symbol for separation from God." To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

---

Quote:

---

God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

---

https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/hell

---

And as we have discussed numerous times before, this directly contradicts Scripture that clearly states God desires all mankind to be saved.

Sorry but it really gets frustrating when Scripture has words added to fit a theology.

---

I don't think it is adding words, it is simply an interpretation of scripture that some affirm and others do not.

---

It seems so obvious that they have a pre conceived theology and then twist Scripture to fit their theology.

---

I am sorry to break it to you, but every single Christian sect will have preconceived notions that they will try to fit things into their theological narratives. With that being said, we should all be on guard against that and help each other point those things out.

---

Agree. Reformed/Calvinist theology is just so foreign to the theology I was raised on. It is almost like a completely different God than I was taught about and worshipped. And that I have a personal relationship with.

Much harsher and full of wrath. And Reformed/Calvinist pastors and theologians reflect that as shown by Washer, Lawson, etc. speaking's on "hell" and eternal punishment.

I still can't believe Calvin wrote 1500 pages about theology and never used the word love.

And nothing is going to change my mind so I should just ignore that theology and its proponents because it makes me mad at other believers.

---

I agree, I do think you need to stop reading these people you disagree with because it's giving you a bad taste for your brother and sisters whose beliefs fall within reformed doctrine.

Lawson was deep in sin and is now taking steps to repent and step away from that sin. We should be glad for that and pray his repentance is true. You almost sound like you hope he is not sincere because he believes something about hell that you disagree with.

---

No, not at all. I pray for Lawson daily. I, personally, could never be publically preaching hellfire and brimstone (of course since I do not believe in ECT hell I would never preach that anyway) while committing adultery. But that is just me.

Did he not understand that if the hell he believes in is true that he has the possibility to end up there also?

It just seems like there is such a disconnect between infernalists and reality. If ECT hell is a reality and I believed that, I would spend 24/7 preaching that. And do nothing else as that would have to be the most important thing in life.

But Jesus did not do that. Paul did not do that. None of the apostles did that. Why not? Shouldn't preaching mirror their sermons and teachings? There are zero NT sermons that are anything like these hellfire and brimstone guys.

It is like infernalists say they believe in ECT hell, but their actions do not reflect that belief.

And I would be very curious to go back through the years and see what Lawson preached on adultery, sin, and hell. And if shudder to think of children being exposed to this.

Or what he advised if he did any marriage counseling. Or what he advised for church discipline for adulterers. While he was doing the deed himself.

And curious, Piper has stated that when people "fall away" then they never were of the "elect"anyway. So was Lawson a fake the whole time?

I will admit that I am very confused.

And I am very happy to forgive Lawson or anyone. I wonder how he would treat me if I was an adulterer? He sure has harsh words in his messages.

I will say that it is fascinating as a non ECT guy that the ECT hellfire and brimstone guys are the ones who have the hardest time keeping their zipper up.

Rules for thee, not for me.

---

Just because someone sins does not mean he has "fallen away"; that's talking about people who suddenly say they no longer believe in God. We all sin, even you. I'm sure you've "preached" out of one side of your mouth while speaking the very thing you preached agaisnt out of the other, we all have.

Only God truly knows our heart and the best we can do is take Lawson at his word - that's he's grieving his sin and truly repentant.

---

Eh, having an affair over several years and lying about it and running away isn't exactly, 'we all sin.' Especially while pretending to be something he's not: a shepherd of souls (I say this because I've seen reports on his membership status and involvement at that church, and podcasting/broadcasting/teaching publicly alone doesn't make you a shepherd) . Barth changed his preaching (by his own admission) after his mistress moved into his home with his family, why expect unchanged theology here? The burden of sin is always heavier on the shoulders of people who are supposed to be leaders and rightfully so.

Surely he's held responsible for what he's done to his family and any that leave whatever faith they have in Christ and the church after watching this play out.

His marriage and family may not yet be saved. Sometimes it takes years. My experience is that repentance does not take the form of a spiritual journey you're on, broadcast to those around you while doing it. It's humility, more often than not in anonymity, and constant acknowledgement and confession, accepting the consequences of your sin while working to reconcile them. I have family members and close friends that have experienced this, so that's where I come from.

---

All sin separates us from God, whether it's habitual or momentary. Obviously his sin was egregious and he'll be experiencing the consequences of it for the remainder of his life.

I agree it'll likely take years for him and his family to heal, if they do. As for anonymity, he's made one statement and then said he would make no more. Honestly, since he's such in the public eye, he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation in the court of public opinion.