Powerful message from my favorite t-sip preacher!

The Hefty Lefty said:

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Powerful message from my favorite t-sip preacher!

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Curious as to where Paul ever preached that evil people would go to hell. Or Jesus. Or Peter. Or anybody in the NT. Never have understood the hang up on hell which is so little of what Jesus preached. I blame it on Augustine.

Would love to see lives changed.

Thanks.

KingofHazor said:

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But Christ did preach of hell. In fact, 90% or so of all Biblical teachings on hell come from Christ.

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Disagree. And I know the references so no need in debating those.

What percentage were Jesus's teachings on hell? Or heaven for that matter?

It's a seven part preaching series.

KingofHazor said:

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What difference does percentage make? If Christ spoke on a topic only once, does that mean we can ignore his teaching?

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Of course not. In my opinion, you have to look at what Christ taught in overall. He taught mostly about how to live our life now.

Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell?

Or for that matter, where Jesus ever said anything about being "saved"?

Or an altar call? Or a sinner's prayer?

Where did Paul ever preach anything similar to what Washer does?

Where is the inerrancy that is demanded?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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KingofHazor said:

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What difference does percentage make? If Christ spoke on a topic only once, does that mean we can ignore his teaching?

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Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell?

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What else would we need saving from?

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Sin and Satan. So we could live the best life we could.

I just want to know where Jesus said He came to save us from hell.

He actually told us why He came. It is very clear Scripturally. He said it. I believe it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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1 Timothy 1:15
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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That is all good but look at these Scriptures critically,

We are all sinners. Nobody is disputing that. The question is about ECT hell.

The wages of sin is death. Not hell (which of course Paul would not even know what "hell" is as a Jew), This actually supports annihilationism. Not ECT hell.

And you might want to see what the original Greek says about kolasis as far as punishment goes. Or what anioiis means.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Romans 10:9-10

The Hefty Lefty said:

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9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Romans 10:9-10

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Completely agree. But Jesus did not say that.

What's your take on Jesus in Matthew 3 with the winnowing fork?

10andBOUNCE said:

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What's your take on Jesus in Matthew 3 with the winnowing fork?

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That the evil and good will be sorted out. No mention of ECT hell there in my opinion.

May I ask you your opinion?

It is like you want to prove God is full of wrath and is going to smite everybody down.

And I can't change that view. Only the Holy Spirit can.

John is preaching repentance and prophesying Jesus ultimately judging the righteous from unrighteous. The unrighteous will be subject to an "unquenchable fire" that "he will burn."

10andBOUNCE said:

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John is preaching repentance and prophesying Jesus ultimately judging the righteous from unrighteous. The unrighteous will be subject to an "unquenchable fire" that "he will burn."

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I believe all will be exposed to the full glory of God. For the righteous that love God, it will be blissful. For the unrighteous, it will be an unpleasant experience but I think will be ultimately purifying.

God is going to make all things right.

Do you think it is actual flames and God will be actively involved in torture?

And in your theology, the unrighteous will be those that God passed over, correct? So they had no way to avoid any of this and were preordained to the "unquenchable fire".

I reject that.

And curious to what you think repentance means?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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KingofHazor said:

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What difference does percentage make? If Christ spoke on a topic only once, does that mean we can ignore his teaching?

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Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell?

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What else would we need saving from?

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Jesus stated why He came

Luke 4 18-19

The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

No mention of saving us from hell. And that is never stated by Jesus, Pail, Peter, etc.

Jesus clearly told us why He came.

Quote:

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What else would we need saving from?

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death

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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What else would we need saving from?

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death

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Exactly. And that is Biblical. The wages of sin is death. Not hell. And Scripture also states that Jesus will conquer our biggest enemy, death. So hell is not our biggest enemy according to Scripture.

I am still looking for any Scripture where Jesus or anyone else said He came to save us from Hell.

Yet Western evangelism is based almost solely on that concept which to me is not Biblical as it is not in the Bible.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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What else would we need saving from?

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death

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Yes, a death that has two outcomes.

i think modernist christianity misses that death itself is a problem to be solved in the scriptural narrative. to be 'saved from hell' you must first be saved from death.

Assume you mean our saving from our spiritual death? Why should we care?

spiritual death and physical death are the same, one precedes the other. humans are not eternal beings by nature. it is not a foregone conclusion that we should continue to exist after death at all.

Why do we care if we exist after death?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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What else would we need saving from?

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death

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Yes, a death that has two outcomes.

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So you don't think we are all in the presence of God?

There are two separate places? And is God administering the punishment Himself like Lawson preaches?

KingofHazor said:

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Doc, you still haven't explained how you deal with the approximately 88 references to hell in the NT. I understand your argument that the traditional view of hell does not comport with your view of God's inherent nature, but that argument does not seem persuasive because it pits your personal opinions against what seems fairly clear from scripture.

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Which translation?

Young's Literal Translation is considered to be one of the most accurate translations and does not have the word hell in it.

Neither does David Bentley Hart's translation which is the most accurate translation of the original Greek in my opinion.

Do you know where and when the word hell was created?

by that concept, why should we care if we continue to live at all?

Zobel said:

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by that concept, why should we care if we continue to live at all?

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I asked first, lol.

Just seems like, if we are just simply dead (cease to exist anymore), we won't really care if we are dead. We won't know we are dead.

because death is wrong and bad. because we were created to have life. because life and living is fundamentally good.

if it is not bad to die, then it is not good to live.

This should not matter. Paul's words carry the same weight. Holy inspired.

Um. No.