Zobel said:

---

because death is wrong and bad. because we were created to have life. because life and living is fundamentally good.

if it is not bad to die, then it is not good to live.

---

Zobel said:

---

He was looking forward to being with Christ and life, and the coming of the resurrection. Death has lost its sting, therefore holds no power over us, because of Christ. Death itself, he also says, is the enemy.

---

aggiedata said:

---

This should not matter. Paul's words carry the same weight. Holy inspired.

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Quote:

---

What else would we need saving from?

---

death

---

Yes, a death that has two outcomes.

---

So you don't think we are all in the presence of God?

There are two separate places? And is God administering the punishment Himself like Lawson preaches?

---

Who else would be administering God's wrath other than God?

---

dermdoc said:

---

aggiedata said:

---

This should not matter. Paul's words carry the same weight. Holy inspired.

---

Totally disagree.

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Since when is orthodoxy in unison with universalism

---

aggiedata said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

aggiedata said:

---

This should not matter. Paul's words carry the same weight. Holy inspired.

---

Totally disagree.

---

Romans will change your life.

---

Zobel said:

---

Eternal condemnation. Im not a universalist. At the same time, God willing there will be few or no people as goats. We must pray for the salvation of all.

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

And where do the goats go?

---

KingofHazor said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

KingofHazor said:

---

Doc, you still haven't explained how you deal with the approximately 88 references to hell in the NT. I understand your argument that the traditional view of hell does not comport with your view of God's inherent nature, but that argument does not seem persuasive because it pits your personal opinions against what seems fairly clear from scripture.

---

Which translation?

Young's Literal Translation is considered to be one of the most accurate translations and does not have the word hell in it.

Neither does David Bentley Hart's translation which is the most accurate translations and in my opinion.

Do you know where and when the word hell was created?

---

It doesn't matter which English word is used, hell or gehenna. Christ's description of the place is of a location of fire and torment, a place of punishment. We could call it "XYZ" and it would not matter. It's Christ's and John's description of it that is relevant, and that you seem to avoid. What I'm asking is how and why you avoid those descriptions.

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I am not sure what you're saying. You said all will be saved but only saved from death in order to be judged? And then what? Is that not when Jesus has his winnowing fork, separating out the wheat from the chaff?

---

aggiedata said:

---

God "will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Of course it was Paul so just ignore it as opinion

2 Thessalonians Chapter 1 verses 7-8

---

KingofHazor said:

---

No translation uses the word "hell" 88 times. That's the no. of times the word or its equivalent is used. For example, "lake of fire", the "furnace of fire", or the like are its equivalent.

Again, how do you interpret Christ's frequent references to hell/gehenna, including his description of it as fire and eternal torment?

---

aggiedata said:

---

You should have been a lawyer not a doctor

---

KingofHazor said:

---

No translation uses the word "hell" 88 times. That's the no. of times the word or its equivalent is used. For example, "lake of fire", the "furnace of fire", or the like are its equivalent.

Again, how do you interpret Christ's frequent references to hell/gehenna, including his description of it as fire and eternal torment?

---

KingofHazor said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

KingofHazor said:

---

No translation uses the word "hell" 88 times. That's the no. of times the word or its equivalent is used. For example, "lake of fire", the "furnace of fire", or the like are its equivalent.

Again, how do you interpret Christ's frequent references to hell/gehenna, including his description of it as fire and eternal torment?

---

Give me a verse.

Most scholars do not think those terms are equivalent in nature. They usually mention Gehenna and Tartarus which is used once in describing where fallen angels go. Not people.

---

"Most scholars" believe no such thing. Some may, but most don't. That's Sapper's trick - to try to end discussions by appealing to "most scholars".

Here are some samples of verses (all quotes are from Young's):

Matthew 13:42 - clearly describes throwing people into the "furnace of fire"

Matthew 18:8-9 - the famous plucking your eye out verses, as being better than being cast "to the fire" or to the "gehenna of the fire". See also Matthew 5:29-30 (people, not angels, are in danger of being cast into gehenna).

Mathew 24:51 - a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth"

Matthew 3:12 - John the Baptist analogizing God's final judgment to a threshing floor where the "chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable"

Mathew 5:22 - Christ talking: "but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire."

Mark 9:47-49 - another account of it being better to pluck out your eye:

Quote:

---

And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.

---

Luke 12 (again, gehenna clearly being used in the context of a destination for some humans, not angels):

Quote:

---

4 `And I say to you, my friends, be not afraid of those killing the body, and after these things are not having anything over to do;

5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.

---

Those are just samples. The NT contains many more verses along the same vein.

---

KingofHazor said:

---

As you wish, brother.

I have tremendous respect for your intelligence and, more importantly, your commitment to Christ and His body. I was challenging you a bit out of true curiosity how you "get around" those verses. I have not been able to do the same.

My realization is that the church's understanding of "hell" is not based on some ingrafting of Anglo-Saxon Nordic concepts into Christianity, but is based on the explicit words of the New Testament, particularly from Christ himself. You apparently have a different view of Christ's meaning. Perhaps sometime you might DM me with your understanding and your basis for it.

Thanks, doc. Wishing you the best.

---