lslam in Texas, please read.

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canadiaggie
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TresPuertas said:

canadiaggie said:

TresPuertas said:

While interesting, I don't think you can extrapolate your experience in Istambul to the Islamic perception of homosexuality. What you experienced was certainly the outlier and not the norm. Which, if I'm reading correctly is the point you were trying to make

That said, I'd agree that the way homosexuality and even pedophilia have been handled within the Islamic religion is inconsistent. Regardless of what the Quran says, or don't address as you pointed out, there is rampant homosexuality in the tribals and rural areas. Similarly, pedophilia called bacha bazi is practiced all throughout the Muslim world.

As with any religion, Hypocrisy is fully present by its followers, but very few practice it like the Muslims do.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty

Bacha bazi is an Afghan cultural practice and it predates Islam. Actually an interesting anthropological point (looking past the tragedy of child exploitation) - it's believed to be introduced to the region by the pederast Greeks. We know this because there are poems and songs about bacha bazi in Afghanistan that date back to its Hindu/Buddhist period, which indicates it may have gone as far back as the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.


cool history lesson. you want to know whats most interesting? Civilized society abandoned this practice hundreds of years ago, and yet it still exists in parts of the Muslim world. Herein lies the problem with Islam. At some point in time, it stopped evolving for the better.

The vast majority of the Muslim world has about an equivalent rate of tolerance for pederast pedophiles as the rest of it, with Afghanistan as the sole outlier. Not sure how Afghanistan is the torch bearer for Islamic norm here
canadiaggie
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swimmerbabe11 said:

the church as a bride and God as the groom is also used constantly in Christian teaching and has nothing to do with homosexuality, feminizing, or transgenderism and it would be super wierd, heterodox, and offensive for someone to bend it that way. in Christianity anyways.

just sayin.

Islamic poetry isn't referring to a genderless institution like the Church. It's individualized, always referring to the worshipper (a person, who has a gender) and the beloved (God, or the closest approximation you can get to God in the form of your human beloved). Since Ibn Arabi this has been a cornerstone of Sufi Islamic practice. The yearning of a bride for her bridegroom is a distinctly feminine feeling, but Sufis treat it as the closest approximation one can have to the desire for fana fi Allah.

That's not to say there isn't plenty of Islamic poetry that goes in a male -> female direction (it's probably the majority) but my overall point was that there used to be a historical, acknowledged permissiveness and space for LGBTQ expressions in Islamic society and that it was reflected in the religious poetry.

We're going down a rabbit hole from what this originally came out of, which was a poster suggesting that Turkey was sinking into Sharia that requires some form of secularism to combat - it isn't in particular, aside from Erdogan's own draconian backsliding of Turkish democracy, standing around in Taksim Square for five minutes and watching gay couples hold hands while the call to prayer rings out from the mosque will purge that thought from your head - My whole response was to highlight that Sharia itself has a complex relationship to and view of LGBTQ, as does the tasawwuf tradition.

AGC
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You keep talking about sharia, and it's still a strawman. It's ok to say secular Islamic societies are becoming more conservative without claiming women aren't allowed to drive.
canadiaggie
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AGC said:

You keep talking about sharia, and it's still a strawman. It's ok to say secular Islamic societies are becoming more conservative without claiming women aren't allowed to drive.

So that's what we're freaking out about? Muslims coming here, being secular and voting GOP?
AGC
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canadiaggie said:

AGC said:

You keep talking about sharia, and it's still a strawman. It's ok to say secular Islamic societies are becoming more conservative without claiming women aren't allowed to drive.

So that's what we're freaking out about? Muslims coming here, being secular and voting GOP?


Another strawman. It's easy to look at Dearborn and the Somali population in Minnesota and make rational arguments about Islam and the impact it has on secular governance.
swimmerbabe11
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I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?
Bob Lee
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swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to.

I'm not sure where this stands, but they also were/are? playing the call to prayer publicly. I think someone appealed to some noise ordinances and it sounded to me last I heard like the people in charge can change the ordinance to allow for it.

Since they attracted attention to themselves, there was a group of people who attended and spoke at a town hall meeting to protest the situation that made the news also.
AGC
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That's recent. Theres a longer history of intolerance though, and, irony of ironies, using law enforcement to harass other religious groups gathering in Muslim areas. That's not all, just samples.

This, "Muslims can embrace pluralism and civic virtue" has not panned out in real life the way it's portrayed here.
bigtruckguy3500
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Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.
Sapper Redux
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.
AGC
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Sapper Redux said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.


Is this the best strawman you guys have? Sure his religion doesn't share our constitutional values and he's completely supporting your points, but he was born here so Islam isn't at fundamental odds with American governance!

At least try instead of 'um-ackshually'-ing.
Sapper Redux
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AGC said:

Sapper Redux said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.


Is this the best strawman you guys have? Sure his religion doesn't share our constitutional values and he's completely supporting your points, but he was born here so Islam isn't at fundamental odds with American governance!

At least try instead of 'um-ackshually'-ing.


You claimed the mayor was foreign born (as if that in itself is bad) solely because he's Muslim. And then said he shouldn't tell a bigot to leave because he wasn't born in this country. The only pathetic straw manning here is from you. Your ignorant hatred of Muslims is something to behold.
Bob Lee
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Sapper Redux said:

AGC said:

Sapper Redux said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.


Is this the best strawman you guys have? Sure his religion doesn't share our constitutional values and he's completely supporting your points, but he was born here so Islam isn't at fundamental odds with American governance!

At least try instead of 'um-ackshually'-ing.


You claimed the mayor was foreign born (as if that in itself is bad) solely because he's Muslim. And then said he shouldn't tell a bigot to leave because he wasn't born in this country. The only pathetic straw manning here is from you. Your ignorant hatred of Muslims is something to behold.


I didn't say he wasn't born here. I said he's a foreigner. His parents are Lebanese. He's foreign.

To say my parents are Lebanese, but I'm American doesn't even make sense. You apparently think that if you're born here, you're every bit as American as the guy whose family has been here for generations. So dumb.
Aggrad08
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I think that. And many of our past presidents have made public statements lauding our nation for this fact
swimmerbabe11
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I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.
Sapper Redux
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Bob Lee said:

Sapper Redux said:

AGC said:

Sapper Redux said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.


Is this the best strawman you guys have? Sure his religion doesn't share our constitutional values and he's completely supporting your points, but he was born here so Islam isn't at fundamental odds with American governance!

At least try instead of 'um-ackshually'-ing.


You claimed the mayor was foreign born (as if that in itself is bad) solely because he's Muslim. And then said he shouldn't tell a bigot to leave because he wasn't born in this country. The only pathetic straw manning here is from you. Your ignorant hatred of Muslims is something to behold.


I didn't say he wasn't born here. I said he's a foreigner. His parents are Lebanese. He's foreign.

To say my parents are Lebanese, but I'm American doesn't even make sense. You apparently think that if you're born here, you're every bit as American as the guy whose family has been here for generations. So dumb.


You may want to check who in history you sound like.
Zobel
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Oooh ooh I know! Hitler! He's calling you a naaaaaziiiii
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

Oooh ooh I know! Hitler! He's calling you a naaaaaziiiii


I was thinking American history. Xenophobia has a long, nasty line in our history with a horrid body count.
AGC
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Sapper Redux said:

AGC said:

Sapper Redux said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I know Dearborn is mostly Muslim, but did I miss a major news event about something terrible happening there?


Dearborn has been in the news quite a bit. A Christian pastor who's a resident recently objected to renaming a street after a Muslim who's said kind things about Hezbollah. The mayor told him he's not welcome there. hearing the foreign mayor of an American city tell a long time resident who I assume was born and raised here that he's not welcome was hard for me to listen to. .

The Dearborn mayor is not foreign, he was born in Dearborn.


No, see, you have to allow people to be bigots if they have the right religion and skin color.


Is this the best strawman you guys have? Sure his religion doesn't share our constitutional values and he's completely supporting your points, but he was born here so Islam isn't at fundamental odds with American governance!

At least try instead of 'um-ackshually'-ing.


You claimed the mayor was foreign born (as if that in itself is bad) solely because he's Muslim. And then said he shouldn't tell a bigot to leave because he wasn't born in this country. The only pathetic straw manning here is from you. Your ignorant hatred of Muslims is something to behold.


Please quote where I said he's foreign born. I'll hang up and wait.

It's not surprising how many posts we have about where the mayor was born instead of his behavior and Dearborn governance. Why so quiet about it?
Sapper Redux
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Quiet about what? The mayor said something inflammatory to you. Oh no. You're turning that into an attack on Muslims in America and the ability of a Muslim to even be considered an American. There's a clear dichotomy in the level of reaction compared to the actual level of the supposed offense.
Bob Lee
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swimmerbabe11 said:

I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.


I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?
bigtruckguy3500
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Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.


I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.
Sapper Redux
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.


I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.


They're ethno-nationalists using a nebulous definition of "white," whoops, I mean "western."
Zobel
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Is your position here that ethno-nationalism is evil or wrong?
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

Is your position here that ethno-nationalism is evil or wrong?


It doesn't have a great history.
Zobel
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AG
You didn't answer the question homie
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

You didn't answer the question homie

Pretty sure I did. What's an example of a just, moral, and peaceful ethnostate?
Aggrad08
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This exercise will prove a waste of time if you don't come together with an agreed definition of ethnostate
swimmerbabe11
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If the man was born to Dearborn, then he's literally native to Dearborn.

There are better ways to make your point than to double down on being wrong.

wouldn't it be more effective for your argument to be "Even despite being born in the United States, the Islamic influence is still so corrupting that he acts like a foreigner?"
Zobel
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Literally did not answer the question. It's a yes or no.
Bob Lee
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swimmerbabe11 said:

If the man was born to Dearborn, then he's literally native to Dearborn.

There are better ways to make your point than to double down on being wrong.

wouldn't it be more effective for your argument to be "Even despite being born in the United States, the Islamic influence is still so corrupting that he acts like a foreigner?"


I haven't claimed he's not a citizen or that he wasn't born here. As a matter of fact, he was. What have I said that's making you think that? I'm saying he's an outsider. He's not an American in any meaningful sense of the word. Citizenship as it stands doesn't reveal anything to me besides your legal status. This is what's going on in Dearborn. You have an entire community of people governing themselves who don't have any allegiance to the United States, and they don't see themselves as American primarily. So it's fine to say he's native to Dearborn as long as we mean the same thing. That he's native to Dearborn is only a comment on where he was born in the world geographically.
Sapper Redux
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Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

If the man was born to Dearborn, then he's literally native to Dearborn.

There are better ways to make your point than to double down on being wrong.

wouldn't it be more effective for your argument to be "Even despite being born in the United States, the Islamic influence is still so corrupting that he acts like a foreigner?"


I haven't claimed he's not a citizen or that he wasn't born here. As a matter of fact, he was. What have I said that's making you think that? I'm saying he's an outsider. He's not an American in any meaningful sense of the word. Citizenship as it stands doesn't reveal anything to me besides your legal status. This is what's going on in Dearborn. You have an entire community of people governing themselves who don't have any allegiance to the United States, and they don't see themselves as American primarily. So it's fine to say he's native to Dearborn as long as we mean the same thing. That he's native to Dearborn is only a comment on where he was born in the world geographically.


Were the Irish and German immigrants who served in ethnic regiments during the Civil War Americans to you? Just curious.
Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

Literally did not answer the question. It's a yes or no.


It's not a yes or no. Like most complicated questions, you try to oversimplify it into a yes or no. I'm curious if you can identify any ethnostates that you consider just, moral, and peaceful?
Bob Lee
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.


I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.


I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.
Sapper Redux
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Bob Lee said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

Bob Lee said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.


I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.


I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.


Literally the exact same claims made about Catholic immigration to the United States.
 
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