Heaven and Hell

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TPS_Report
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Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.

These two seem contradictory to me.

  • How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
  • If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
  • Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?



I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
dermdoc
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TPS_Report said:

Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.

These two seem contradictory to me.

  • How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
  • If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
  • Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?

You were taught bad theology as was I.
Scripture seems to indicate an intermediate state before Christ returns and there is judgement. What that intermediate state consists of is unclear.
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that day after he died. OT scripture indicates a "sleep" before Christ's return and judgement.
When Christ returns, believers will be judged at the Bema seat by Christ. Their salvation is secure and it is more of a life review.
Non believers are judged at the great white throne. All those who reject God are thrown in the lake of fire. What the lake of fire consists of is unclear. I believe it is a refining process and not ECT hell.

Then the earth is re created perfectly as it was intended before sin. God and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth. God will abide with us. No sorrow, death, disease, etc. All things are made new and perfect. Truly a wonderful story of God's love and ultimate restoration of all things.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
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And I believe the fact that you are asking this question means the Spirit is nudging you.
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TPS_Report
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dermdoc said:

TPS_Report said:

Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.

These two seem contradictory to me.

  • How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
  • If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
  • Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?

You were taught bad theology as was I.
Scripture seems to indicate an intermediate state before Christ returns and there is judgement. What that intermediate state consists of is unclear.
Jesus told the their on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that day after he died. OT scripture indicates a "sleep" before Christ's return and judgement.
When Christ returns, believers will be judged at the Bema seat by Christ. Their salvation is secure and it is more of a life review.
Non believers are judged at the great white throne. All those who reject God are thrown in the lake of fire. What the lake of fire consists of is unclear. I believe it is a refining process and not ECT hell.

Then the earth is re created perfectly as it was intended before sin. God and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth. God will abide with us. No sorrow, death, disease, etc. All hints are made new and perfect. Truly a wonderful story of God's love and ultimate restoration of all things.

Thank you for your reply.


If one is already saved, what is the point of the "life review"?

Are the non-believers at the great white throne in the direct presence of God?

Do the non-believers know what the consequences are?





I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
dermdoc
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Sorry I am in Gainesville for Aggie baseball. Will answer after the game.
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TPS_Report
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dermdoc said:

Sorry I am in Gainesville for Aggie baseball. Will answer after the game.

Take your time and enjoy the game!



I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
10andBOUNCE
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Tread lightly with Mr. Dermdoc's thoughts on hell.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Tread lightly with Mr. Dermdoc's thoughts on hell.

Tell me yours and I will respond. With Scripture of course. In my opinion, ECT hell has the least Scriptural backing of all the "hell theologies".
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dermdoc
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TPS_Report said:

dermdoc said:

TPS_Report said:

Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.

These two seem contradictory to me.

  • How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
  • If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
  • Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?

You were taught bad theology as was I.
Scripture seems to indicate an intermediate state before Christ returns and there is judgement. What that intermediate state consists of is unclear.
Jesus told the their on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that day after he died. OT scripture indicates a "sleep" before Christ's return and judgement.
When Christ returns, believers will be judged at the Bema seat by Christ. Their salvation is secure and it is more of a life review.
Non believers are judged at the great white throne. All those who reject God are thrown in the lake of fire. What the lake of fire consists of is unclear. I believe it is a refining process and not ECT hell.

Then the earth is re created perfectly as it was intended before sin. God and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth. God will abide with us. No sorrow, death, disease, etc. All hints are made new and perfect. Truly a wonderful story of God's love and ultimate restoration of all things.

Thank you for your reply.


If one is already saved, what is the point of the "life review"?

Are the non-believers at the great white throne in the direct presence of God?

Do the non-believers know what the consequences are?




I believe in near death experiences and the life review is present in almost all of them. In these NDEs, the life review is a non condemning look at how you used the life God gave you. It is a teaching process as we continue on to glorification.
i believe the non believers at the great white throne are in the presence of God.
Scripture says the evidence for God is present for all men and there is no excuse. Scripture also says that God is love, just, and merciful. And desires to save all people. I do not know exactly what will happen but it I'll be just and exactly right.
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TPS_Report
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dermdoc said:

TPS_Report said:

dermdoc said:

TPS_Report said:

Back when I was a church-goer, I was told when a human being dies, that person's soul immediately goes to heaven or hell. But I was also told Jesus would return to judge the living and the dead.

These two seem contradictory to me.

  • How are souls getting into heaven/hell prior to judgement?
  • If the soul doesn't immediately go to heaven or hell, what's going on in the interim?
  • Does a soul go to one or the other then get promoted/relegated at the time of final judgement?
Can any of the esteemed biblical scholars on this board help a poor non-believer out?

You were taught bad theology as was I.
Scripture seems to indicate an intermediate state before Christ returns and there is judgement. What that intermediate state consists of is unclear.
Jesus told the their on the cross that he would be with Christ in paradise that day after he died. OT scripture indicates a "sleep" before Christ's return and judgement.
When Christ returns, believers will be judged at the Bema seat by Christ. Their salvation is secure and it is more of a life review.
Non believers are judged at the great white throne. All those who reject God are thrown in the lake of fire. What the lake of fire consists of is unclear. I believe it is a refining process and not ECT hell.

Then the earth is re created perfectly as it was intended before sin. God and the New Jerusalem will descend on the new earth. God will abide with us. No sorrow, death, disease, etc. All hints are made new and perfect. Truly a wonderful story of God's love and ultimate restoration of all things.

Thank you for your reply.


If one is already saved, what is the point of the "life review"?

Are the non-believers at the great white throne in the direct presence of God?

Do the non-believers know what the consequences are?




I believe in near death experiences and the life review is present in almost all of them. In these NDEs, the life review is a non condemning look at how you used the life God gave you. It is a teaching process as we continue on to glorification.
i believe the non believers at the great white throne are in the presence of God.
Scripture says the evidence for God is present for all men and there is no excuse. Scripture also says that God is love, just, and merciful. And desires to save all people. I do not know exactly what will happen but it I'll be just and exactly right.

Thanks.




I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
10andBOUNCE
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Here are some bullets I have poached mainly from the Westminster Larger Catechism questions/answers 84-90 (https://thewestminsterstandard.org/westminster-larger-catechism/)

Death being threatened as the wages of sin, it is appointed unto all men once to die; for that all have sinned.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The righteous shall be delivered from death itself at the last day, and even in death are delivered from the sting and curse of it; so that, although they die, yet it is out of God's love, to free them perfectly from sin and misery, and to make them capable of further communion with Christ in glory, which they then enter upon.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The communion in glory with Christ, which the members of the invisible Church enjoy immediately after death, is, in that their souls are then made perfect in holiness, and received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies, which even in death continue united to Christ, and rest in their graves, as in their beds, till at the last day they be again united with their souls.
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Whereas the souls of the wicked are at their death cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness; and their bodies kept in their graves, as in their prisons, until the resurrection and judgment of the great day.
Luke 16:23-24 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

We are to believe, that, at the last day, there shall be a general resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust: when they that are then found alive shall in a moment be changed; and the selfsame bodies of the dead which are laid in the grave, being then again united to their souls for ever, shall be raised up by the power of Christ. The bodies of the just, by the Spirit of Christ, and by virtue of his resurrection as their head, shall be raised in power, spiritual, incorruptible, and made like to his glorious body; and the bodies of the wicked shall be raised up in dishonor by him, as an offended judge.
Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Immediately after the resurrection shall follow the general and final judgment of angels and men; the day and hour whereof no man knoweth, that all may watch and pray, and be ever ready for the coming of the Lord.
Luke 21:35-36 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

On the day of judgment, the wicked shall be set on Christ's left hand, and, upon clear evidence and full conviction of their own consciences, shall have the fearful but just sentence of condemnation pronounced against them; and thereupon shall be cast out from the favorable presence of God, and the glorious fellowship with Christ, his saints, and all his holy angels, into hell, to be punished with unspeakable torments both of body and soul, with the devil and his angels for ever.
Matthew 25:33-34 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

On the day of judgment, the righteous, being caught up to Christ in the clouds, shall be set on his right hand, and there openly acknowledged and acquitted, shall join with him in the judging of reprobate angels and men, and shall be received into heaven, where they shall be fully and for ever freed from all sin and misery; filled with inconceivable joys, made perfectly holy and happy both in body and soul, in the company of innumerable saints and holy angels, but especially in the immediate vision and fruition of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, to all eternity. And this is the perfect and full communion, which the members of the invisible Church shall enjoy with Christ in glory, at the resurrection and day of judgment.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
dermdoc
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My relationship with Jesus has changed my life. And all for good. If you ever want to discuss this stuff, glad to buy you a cup of coffee. Or talk or text on the phone.
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TPS_Report
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dermdoc said:

My relationship with Jesus has changed my life. And all for good. If you ever want to discuss this stuff, glad to buy you a cup of coffee. Or talk or text on the phone.

Thank you for the kind offer. Thanks as well for going to Gainesville to help our Ags take the series from UF!



I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
dermdoc
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TPS_Report said:

dermdoc said:

My relationship with Jesus has changed my life. And all for good. If you ever want to discuss this stuff, glad to buy you a cup of coffee. Or talk or text on the phone.

Thank you for the kind offer. Thanks as well for going to Gainesville to help our Ags take the series from UF!

And if you are truly curious, I would read the Gospel of John. With some Psalms sprinkled in. I love Psalm 91, 100, 112, 121, and 123. The latter four are individual Psalms dedicated to my 2 kids and 2 grandkids.
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dermdoc
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And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.
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Kothmann5
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I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.
dermdoc
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Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?
TSJ
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Here's an Orthodox understanding of heaven and hell in this podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424
10andBOUNCE
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I won't have time to listen to a podcast but would be curious for a summary on the Eastern/Greek position. Didn't the Cappadocian Fathers kind of disagree on the nature of punishment being eternal and/or purifying?
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?

Of course. We have a new covenant provided by Jesus. And there was no concept of hell in the OT.
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FIDO95
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You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.
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FIDO95
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dermdoc said:

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?

Of course. We have a new covenant provided by Jesus. And there was no concept of hell in the OT.

Would you consider yourself a dispensationalist?
dermdoc
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FIDO95 said:

dermdoc said:

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!

I was thinking more about C. S. Lewis's views on hell, free will, total depravity, predestination, and the character of God. Just like me, he rejected Calvinism as he believed it turned God into a fiend.

And Gainesville and Baton Rouge were a blast.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?

Of course. We have a new covenant provided by Jesus. And there was no concept of hell in the OT.

Would you consider yourself a dispensationalist?

I consider my self to be a Christian. Lewis called it "Mere Christianity". God has a plan and I am not sure anyone can figure it out with labels or theologies. Love God, Love your neighbor. Follow Christ in all you do.

To me, it all comes down to what you believe the character of God is. Is God mad at humans ( sinners in the hands of an angry God, turn or burn, etc.) or does God love us and desire for all of us to be saved? Enough that He gave his only begotten Son for all the sins of all the world.

John 3 17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

The world. Not just the "elect" as defined by Calvinism/Reformed. And the world is saved through Him. I personally do not nelieve that means though sacraments like the RCC/EO believe.

I will say that the latter does not bother me near as much as the former because it does not distort he character of God that I believe in from the totality of Scripture.

I find it fascinating that from my reading, the only ones Christ rebuked were religious leaders. Not *****s. Not an adulteress. Not tax collectors. Not thiefs. Not Samaritans.

Christ rebuked those who kept people from entering the Kingdom of God now which were the religious leaders. And history seems to repeat itself. Many pastors and clergy preach legalism, condemnation, rules, and regulations. That is exactly what Christ condemned as it shackled and bound the people and kept them from the pure joy of the Gospel. Christ preached that the Kingdom of God is here. Now. That He came to give us the most abundant life possible. He never preached that His purpose was to save us from hell. There is no Scripture that says that yet that theology is widely taught.
He preached that if you were truly born again the law would be etched upon your heart and you would follow it joyfully. Not by force or fear.

He taught salvation was about restoration. Being born again. Not a get out of hell free card. That theology completely minimizes the scope of Christ's work and mission.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?

Of course. We have a new covenant provided by Jesus. And there was no concept of hell in the OT.

Would you consider yourself a dispensationalist?

John 3 17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

The world was already condemned.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Kothmann5 said:

I'm with you Dermdoc. John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto me." It ends up being a Love Story. Who knew.

Amen. I wish every rejector of Christ realized how much they are loved, Unconditionally.

Is this a New Testament only idea? Are you able to read the Old Testament and come away with this conclusion as well?

Of course. We have a new covenant provided by Jesus. And there was no concept of hell in the OT.

Would you consider yourself a dispensationalist?

John 3 17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

The world was already condemned.

Fair enough. What does "save the WORLD through Him" mean to you?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Howdy, it is me!
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What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?
TPS_Report
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FIDO95 said:

You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?



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Howdy, it is me!
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AG
We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

dermdoc
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AG
Howdy, it is me! said:

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,
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dermdoc
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AG
Howdy, it is me! said:

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.



And none of those verses speak of eternal punishment either. I agree Scripture is clear we will be judged on how we live our lives. There will be punishment. I believe it is corrective punishment.
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The Banned
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TPS_Report said:

FIDO95 said:

You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.
dermdoc
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AG
The Banned said:

TPS_Report said:

FIDO95 said:

You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.

Agree.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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