10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

TPS_Report said:

---

FIDO95 said:

---

You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

---

Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

---

Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.

---

I would also appeal that it may very well not be a throne as we know it from the movies or something. God is on his throne, yet is also everywhere. So, not very earthly at all.

---

Agree. He is in all things. The Kingdom of God is here. Now.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

Serious question, I thought you believed we were "saved" by God's election? And we have no choice.

Aren't you a Calvinist?

FIDO95 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

---

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!

---

You beat me to the punch on why doc should be Anglican.

You also beat me to demonstrating why ai still can't be trusted to actually know anything about people or their religions. He was a faithful Anglican and we're still here for you doc!

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Tread lightly with Mr. Dermdoc's thoughts on hell.

---

I was just thinking I have obviously given my view of hell. I am not sure you have articulated yours. What is your view of hell? And I apologize if you have previously stated it.

AGC said:

---

FIDO95 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

---

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!

---

You beat me to the punch on why doc should be Anglican.

You also beat me to demonstrating why ai still can't be trusted to actually know anything about people or their religions. He was a faithful Anglican and we're still here for you doc!

---

Is CS Lewis's hell theology compatible with Anglicanism? As portrayed in the Great Divorce? I could agree with that.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

So you believe in eternal torment? At different levels due to the seriousness of one's transgressions? Like Dante's Inferno?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

And none of those verses speak of eternal punishment either. I agree Scripture is clear we will be judged on how we live our lives. There will be punishment. I believe it is corrective punishment.

---

I messed up my reply. This response was directly to the OP to answer their question:

If one is already saved, what is the point of the "life review"?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

And none of those verses speak of eternal punishment either. I agree Scripture is clear we will be judged on how we live our lives. There will be punishment. I believe it is corrective punishment.

---

I messed up my reply. This response was directly to the OP to answer their question:

If one is already saved, what is the point of the "life review"?

---

Got it. Thanks.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

So you believe in eternal torment? At different levels due to the seriousness of one's transgressions? Like Dante's Inferno?

---

It's been way too many years since I read Dante's Inferno (and played it in marching band) to even begin to broach that comparison. But I do believe we are rewarded and punished differently - degrees of rewards and punishments - according to our deeds.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Tread lightly with Mr. Dermdoc's thoughts on hell.

---

I was just thinking I have obviously given my view of hell. I am not sure you have articulated yours. What is your view of hell? And I apologize if you have previously stated it.

---

I don't really have a view outside of passages from Scripture and have not spent a lot of time considering it, right or wrong.

I do think that in general in the world we live in today, we all benefit (both the saved and unsaved) from God's benevolence in that the evil that takes place day to day is far less than it could be, because of God's restraining arm. One aspect of hell I believe will transpire is that it will be the arm of God (previously restraining total evil) removed and total wickedness will ensue. Something we could not imagine (and I care not to imagine TBH).

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

We are all going to be judged based on how we lived our lives. Those who are saved will receive rewards. Those we are not will receive different levels of punishment (think of it like a murderer receiving multiple life sentences).

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Luke 12 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.

---

So you believe in eternal torment? At different levels due to the seriousness of one's transgressions? Like Dante's Inferno?

---

It's been way too many years since I read Dante's Inferno (and played it in marching band) to even begin to broach that comparison. But I do believe we are rewarded and punished differently - degrees of rewards and punishments - according to our deeds.

---

Same here as far as Dante's Inferno. And thanks.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

You know the answer I am going to give.

Before Christ, other nations had not been able to benefit or had not been grafted into the promises of God. Christ changed all of that and opened up his grace to all nations and peoples. Jew or Gentile.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

You know the answer I am going to give.

Before Christ, other nations had not been able to benefit or had not been grafted into the promises of God. Christ changed all of that and opened up his grace to all nations and peoples. Jew or Gentile.

---

So you believe "world" means the "elect"? Save the world seems pretty clear to me.

And I agree with what you posted. God's grace is available to all. . For all the world. Jews or gentiles. Man or woman. That is defiant not TULIP.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

You know the answer I am going to give.

Before Christ, other nations had not been able to benefit or had not been grafted into the promises of God. Christ changed all of that and opened up his grace to all nations and peoples. Jew or Gentile.

---

So you believe "world" means the "elect"? Save the world seems pretty clear to me.

And I agree with what you posted. God's grace is available to all. . For all the world. Jews or gentiles. Man or woman. That is defiant not TULIP.

---

I guess my question to brothers who disagree with me here, if God set out to save the world (every single person who ever existed), would you not have to say that he did not achieve what he set out to do? Unless you do believe in ultimate reconciliation and/or universalism.

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

FIDO95 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

---

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!

---

You beat me to the punch on why doc should be Anglican.

You also beat me to demonstrating why ai still can't be trusted to actually know anything about people or their religions. He was a faithful Anglican and we're still here for you doc!

---

Is CS Lewis's hell theology compatible with Anglicanism? As portrayed in the Great Divorce? I could agree with that.

---

Not really addressed in the articles as I recall.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

You know the answer I am going to give.

Before Christ, other nations had not been able to benefit or had not been grafted into the promises of God. Christ changed all of that and opened up his grace to all nations and peoples. Jew or Gentile.

---

Christ is all over the OT. He's not a NT phenomenon. The gospel is given in Genesis 3.

---

I agree.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

You know the answer I am going to give.

Before Christ, other nations had not been able to benefit or had not been grafted into the promises of God. Christ changed all of that and opened up his grace to all nations and peoples. Jew or Gentile.

---

So you believe "world" means the "elect"? Save the world seems pretty clear to me.

And I agree with what you posted. God's grace is available to all. . For all the world. Jews or gentiles. Man or woman. That is defiant not TULIP.

---

I guess my question to brothers who disagree with me here, if God set out to save the world (every single person who ever existed), would you not have to say that he did not achieve what he set out to do? Unless you do believe in ultimate reconciliation and/or universalism.

---

Makes sense doesn't it? Especially if you believe in the total sovereignty of God. It is all through Scripture.

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

FIDO95 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

And I must warn you that I am considered a heretic by many on here as I do not believe in ECT hell. Or double predestination. Both of which are advocated by the Westminster catechism. Of course, my theology is very similar to CS Lewis so there is that.

---

So what your saying is you are almost Catholic?!? LOL


"AI Overview

No, C.S. Lewis was not Catholic; he was a committed Anglican (Church of England) throughout his adult life. While he was a "high churchman" who embraced several Catholic doctrines, including confession, purgatory, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he never formally joined the Roman Catholic Church."

On a more serious note, you will be needing to be popping a lot more pimples the next couple of months because we are going to need to you to keep attending the baseball games!

---

You beat me to the punch on why doc should be Anglican.

You also beat me to demonstrating why ai still can't be trusted to actually know anything about people or their religions. He was a faithful Anglican and we're still here for you doc!

---

Is CS Lewis's hell theology compatible with Anglicanism? As portrayed in the Great Divorce? I could agree with that.

---

Not really addressed in the articles as I recall.

---

A quick Google search indicates his view is compatible with Anglican theology.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I guess my question to brothers who disagree with me here, if God set out to save the world (every single person who ever existed), would you not have to say that he did not achieve what he set out to do? Unless you do believe in ultimate reconciliation and/or universalism.

---

Bringing this line of thought over from the thread below this: Protestants often rightfully talk about "relationship" with Jesus. Relationship is a two way street. If one entity forces the other into some form of union, that is no "relationship". Our free will to follow God or not is necessary for relationship to exist at all. So anyone who rejects God and spends eternity apart from Him is not what God "wants", but it is in accordance with His perfect plan. He did not fail.

For those that want to go the universalism route again undercut what relationship means. If some are ultimately forced to comply, then choice is an illusion and God just waited longer to force compliance. I guess you could say everyone will eventually change their minds in the afterlife, but that is just a wishful guess at what will happen. To raise it to the level of doctrine is to say God will ensure that it happens, again undercutting the idea we ever had a choice.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Do you believe in limited atonement? Even with all the Scripture that seem to contradict it?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I guess my question to brothers who disagree with me here, if God set out to save the world (every single person who ever existed), would you not have to say that he did not achieve what he set out to do? Unless you do believe in ultimate reconciliation and/or universalism.

---

Bringing this line of thought over from the thread below this: Protestants often rightfully talk about "relationship" with Jesus. Relationship is a two way street. If one entity forces the other into some form of union, that is no "relationship". Our free will to follow God or not is necessary for relationship to exist at all. So anyone who rejects God and spends eternity apart from Him is not what God "wants", but it is in accordance with His perfect plan. He did not fail.

For those that want to go the universalism route again undercut what relationship means. If some are ultimately forced to comply, then choice is an illusion and God just waited longer to force compliance. I guess you could say everyone will eventually change their minds in the afterlife, but that is just a wishful guess at what will happen. To raise it to the level of doctrine is to say God will ensure that it happens, again undercutting the idea we ever had a choice.

---

I can go along with that. As CS Lewis says "The gates of hell are locked from the inside". My only question is does God allow man's free will to Trump His desire to save all? I do not know.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Do you believe in limited atonement? Even with all the Scripture that seem to contradict it?

---

Yes, any person of the reformed faith would affirm it.

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

---

That makes sense. If God is totally sovereign and Scripture clearly states He desires to save every man, the logical conclusion is ultimate reconciliation.

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

---

Nobody is perfect, and I also have no idea who you are referring to as it has not come up in any of my studies. I am sure universalists exists in any faith tradition though. I won't be naive about it.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

---

That makes sense. If God is totally sovereign and Scripture clearly states He desires to save every man, the logical conclusion is ultimate reconciliation.

---

I will agree that it certainly has to be the other option, if the idea of the elect being predestined, chosen, and saved is rejected.

I don't know where the non-Calvinist and non-universalist would go about explaining this.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What does this verse mean to you?

Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Does God break His oath?

---

Which one? Mine or yours?

And your verse says nothing about eternal punishment.

It all comes down to what you believe God's character is. Is Je loving and merciful as revealed by Christ? Or is He wrathful and angry? Sinners in the hands of an angry God,

---

It says they shall not enter His rest. God swore this.

He absolutely is loving and merciful, I am proof. He is also just.

---

What is your interpretation of John 3 17? What does "but to save the World through Him" mean to you? And not a gotcha question. I am being serious. It seems to me those Scriptures contradict each other.unless "They shall not enter My rest" does not mean they are condemned to eternal torment. Just separation.

---

I think those people, the wilderness Israelites, were condemned for eternity, did not receive everlasting rest, as He stated. As will anyone else who is not saved.

Unbelief is a grave and damning sin, as the end of Hebrews 3 states.

Hebrews 3: 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

---

Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

---

That makes sense. If God is totally sovereign and Scripture clearly states He desires to save every man, the logical conclusion is ultimate reconciliation.

---

I will agree that it certainly has to be the other option, if the idea of the elect being predestined, chosen, and saved is rejected.

---

Disagree. Depends on how you define elect. It is rejection of the Reformed view of the elect. Election is Biblical.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I guess my question to brothers who disagree with me here, if God set out to save the world (every single person who ever existed), would you not have to say that he did not achieve what he set out to do? Unless you do believe in ultimate reconciliation and/or universalism.

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Bringing this line of thought over from the thread below this: Protestants often rightfully talk about "relationship" with Jesus. Relationship is a two way street. If one entity forces the other into some form of union, that is no "relationship". Our free will to follow God or not is necessary for relationship to exist at all. So anyone who rejects God and spends eternity apart from Him is not what God "wants", but it is in accordance with His perfect plan. He did not fail.

For those that want to go the universalism route again undercut what relationship means. If some are ultimately forced to comply, then choice is an illusion and God just waited longer to force compliance. I guess you could say everyone will eventually change their minds in the afterlife, but that is just a wishful guess at what will happen. To raise it to the level of doctrine is to say God will ensure that it happens, again undercutting the idea we ever had a choice.

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I can go along with that. As CS Lewis says "The gates of hell are locked from the inside". My only question is does God allow man's free will to Trump His will to save all? I do not know.

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Who says God wills all to be saved? I see He desires it or wishes it and other terms. But never that He decrees it to be so.

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Sorry. I will fix it.