10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

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Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

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Nobody is perfect, and I also have no idea who you are referring to as it has not come up in any of my studies. I am sure universalists exists in any faith tradition though. I won't be naive about it.

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Not meant to be a dig. Derm has his issues with Calvinism (as do I) but often times the reality that universalism equally undercuts free will doesn't seem to cause issue for him. I was trying to make the tie in for him.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

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Do you believe in limited atonement? Even with all the Scripture that seem to contradict it?

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Yes, any person of the reformed faith would affirm it.

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A quick Google search show that not all Reformed believe in limited atonement. I personally know some.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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It does if you are not going to take a limited atonement position.

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Which is why modern universalism was the brain child of 18th and 19th century Calvinist pastors...

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Nobody is perfect, and I also have no idea who you are referring to as it has not come up in any of my studies. I am sure universalists exists in any faith tradition though. I won't be naive about it.

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Not meant to be a dig. Derm has his issues with Calvinism (as do I) but often times the reality that universalism equally undercuts free will doesn't seem to cause issue for him. I was trying to make the tie in for him.

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I go back and forth to be honest. And I understand what you are saying. Ultimate reconciliation is Calvinism on steroids and takes away free will.

The Banned said:

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TPS_Report said:

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FIDO95 said:

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You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

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Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

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Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.

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When does the bible use something other than human imagery?

TPS_Report said:

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The Banned said:

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TPS_Report said:

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FIDO95 said:

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You are judged "the nanosecond" that you die. From the Catholic perspective, you are sent to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (place of purification prior to be allowed into Heaven). This thread is not here to debate Purgatory so my intent is not to derail. It is only to point out there exists a place where "the dead" will be that will still require final judgement. As such, there is not "contradiction". Once final judgement it is done, it is done. There is no "promotion or relegation".

To the other point that I think you may be alluding towards, there is an ordinary and an extraordinary path to salvation. The ordinary is through the sacraments, i.e. Baptism, and a confirmation that Christ is your Lord and Savior. These acts "bind" you to God (see Matt 16:19). However, God is not limited by our actions therefore there is the extraordinary path to salvation which relies solely on God's mercy, i.e. thief on the Cross. The belief is that this extends to individuals/non-believers who have never been exposed to the Gospels, i.e. tribal peoples, unborn children. They will get an opportunity to accept or deny God's love before His throne.

---

Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

---

Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.

---

When does the bible use something other than human imagery?

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Jesus is compared to a Lamb often. Shepherd and His sheep. All kinds of animals in Revelation. The dove that descended on Christ when he was baptized. A talking donkey. The Lion of Judah. Satan is called a lion on the prowl and is a snake in the Garden of Eden. Sure there are more.

TPS_Report said:

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The Banned said:

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TPS_Report said:

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Seems strange to me that God would have a "throne". As an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, what is the need for a throne? This idea that God sits on a throne in heaven sounds VERY earthly to me. It makes me think of Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.

Why does God have a throne?

---

Because the bible routinely uses human imagery for our benefit. It helps us try to understand something we metaphysically cannot. It helps us see just how much greater He is than us, and that we will acknowledge it happily. He is the Most High.

I'm not aware of any orthodox believers throughout history that taught there is a literal throne. It wouldn't even make sense, as God the Father has no body.

---

When does the bible use something other than human imagery?

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When it's something that literally happened. When it says Jesus spoke, or drank wine, or broke bread, etc., it wasn't imagery. He did those things.

God on a throne is imagery because He doesn't actually sit on a throne. So that should be able to help your bolded issue. The bible uses imagery like sitting on a throne to convey a message in our limited human language. To actually describe what being in the presence of God is like is impossible in this lifetime.

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

---

Eesh, I don't think I'd describe it as "simple unbelief". And this was not a Calvinist question, so I'm not going to get into to those debates. Thanks for answering.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

---

Eesh, I don't think I'd describe it as "simple unbelief". And this was not a Calvinist question, so I'm not going to get into to those debates. Thanks for answering.

---

Actually it is a Calvinist debate. If you believe in ECT hell and double predestination (Calvinism) then you believe God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.
And yes Catholics believe in eternal hell but it is more like a separation from God based on a free will rejection of God. That does not put the onus on God, which I believe makes him guilty of sin, but on the individual and his God given free will. One is based on Fod's love and letting each person decide their own fate even though Scripture states He desires all to be saved. The other, Calvinism, is not based on love in my opinion and besmirches the character of God.

To my knowledge, Calvinism is the not theology that supports double oredestiantion couple with ECT hell.

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

---

Eesh, I don't think I'd describe it as "simple unbelief". And this was not a Calvinist question, so I'm not going to get into to those debates. Thanks for answering.

---

Actually it is a Calvinist debate. If you believe in ECT hell and double predestination (Calvinism) then you believe God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.
And yes Catholics believe in eternal hell but it is more like a separation from God based on a free will rejection of God. That does not put the onus on God, which I believe makes him guilty of sin, but on the individual and his God given free will. One is based on Fod's love and letting each person decide their own fate even though Scripture states He desires all to be saved. The other, Calvinism, is not based on love in my opinion and besmirches the character of God.

To my knowledge, Calvinism is the not theology that supports double oredestiantion couple with ECT hell.

---

No, I'm sorry, believing in eternal punishment is not strictly Calvinist. Plenty of non-Calvinist Protestants believe in eternal punishment.

Bighunter43 said:

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In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

---

Eesh, I don't think I'd describe it as "simple unbelief". And this was not a Calvinist question, so I'm not going to get into to those debates. Thanks for answering.

---

Actually it is a Calvinist debate. If you believe in ECT hell and double predestination (Calvinism) then you believe God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.
And yes Catholics believe in eternal hell but it is more like a separation from God based on a free will rejection of God. That does not put the onus on God, which I believe makes him guilty of sin, but on the individual and his God given free will. One is based on Fod's love and letting each person decide their own fate even though Scripture states He desires all to be saved. The other, Calvinism, is not based on love in my opinion and besmirches the character of God.

To my knowledge, Calvinism is the not theology that supports double oredestiantion couple with ECT hell.

---

No, I'm sorry, believing in eternal punishment is not strictly Calvinist. Plenty of non-Calvinist Protestants believe in eternal punishment.

---

I said double predestination and ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology professes that. It is the combo that is the problem.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

What do you think it means to be damned or condemned? Such as in Mark 16:16? Is it just the "eternal" part of mine and others' belief that you take issue with?

---

Yes. It is clear there is punishment. Eternal punishment for simple unbelief (especially in Calvinism where God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell) makes God into a monster in my opinion. I do not believe TULIP is Biblically sound.

How can you have kids if they may be pre ordained to ECT hell? And you can do nothing about it. Had a friend and he and his wife did not have kids for that very reason. And he was a dermatologist. Smart guy.

---

Eesh, I don't think I'd describe it as "simple unbelief". And this was not a Calvinist question, so I'm not going to get into to those debates. Thanks for answering.

---

Actually it is a Calvinist debate. If you believe in ECT hell and double predestination (Calvinism) then you believe God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.
And yes Catholics believe in eternal hell but it is more like a separation from God based on a free will rejection of God. That does not put the onus on God, which I believe makes him guilty of sin, but on the individual and his God given free will. One is based on Fod's love and letting each person decide their own fate even though Scripture states He desires all to be saved. The other, Calvinism, is not based on love in my opinion and besmirches the character of God.

To my knowledge, Calvinism is the not theology that supports double oredestiantion couple with ECT hell.

---

No, I'm sorry, believing in eternal punishment is not strictly Calvinist. Plenty of non-Calvinist Protestants believe in eternal punishment.

---

I said double predestination and ECT hell. To my knowledge, no other theology professes that. It is the combo that is the problem.

---

But you DO have a problem with ECT hell - you don't believe in it.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

And huge difference between not being reconciled or separated because of their own free will. I believe Calvinist preachers are the only ones who preach that God creates and pre ordains people to ECT hell. And some preach God is doing the eternal punishment.

dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

Does it hold less meaning because it's the only one? Is there a verse that describes a place you go after you die to be refined and ultimately saved?

What do you believe the translation should be?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

Does it hold less meaning because it's the only one? Is there a verse that describes a place you go after you die to be refined and ultimately saved?

What do you believe the translation should be?

---

The Greek words in question are aionios kolasis. Google scholarly articles on aionios kolasis. It is much too voluminous of a subject to discuss here adequately. Ramelli's work is excellent.
Did you realize that the most accurate translations, like Young's Literal Translation, do not even have the word eternal in their translation of a Matthew 25 46?
I will give a short synopsis. There have been word aionios should be translated by strict Greek translation as "of an age" and not eternal. It's translated meaning also depends on what noun it is used with.
The Greek word "kolasis" is generally used as a pruning or corrective punishment. The Greek word for retributive punishment is "timoria".
A lot of the confusion came about because Augustine self admittedly was bad at Greek translation. He was the one who saw aionios as erroneously meaning "eternal" and the same in both instances.
i honestly can not do this justice as there have been volumes written about this. If you are truly interested, I strongly suggest Googling scholarly articles on "aionios kolasis". And read Ramelli. She is excelllent.

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

First of all, I appreciate the kind words. 1 Thessalonians 1 10 does not describe eternal punishment. God exhibited His wrath throughout the OT. It never was connected with eternal punishment. Just death. There was no concept of ECT hell in the OT.
I find it odd that in Acts, none of the apostles mentioned the concept of eternal torment. Paul never used the word "hell" or Gehenna.
The cross is even more important in Universal reconciliation than in Limited atonement. Numerous Scriptures about how Christ's sacrifice was for all men. The cross is the most important event in history.
It is fascinating that when people, like me, realize the extent of God's grace and are truly born again, they don't want to sin or believe they can get away with whatever they want to. It is actually just the opposite. You are truly changed. With a new heart. It is truly wonderful. The most abundant life ever.
This forum is the only place I really voice my views. When I witness, and I pray and talk to my patients about my faith everyday, I never mention my theology. Just the simple Gospel. I refuse to try to scare anyone into following Christ by threatening ECT hell, I do not believe that is Biblical. And Jesus never said He came to save us from "hell". Never. He proclaimed why He came Himself. Luke 4 18-19.

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners,
and recovery of sight for the blind.
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of our Lord's favor.

I was never taught that when church folks were trying to "save" me when I was young. I was taught that if I died tonight and had not said the Sinner's Prayer and be baptized then I would go to ECT hell. Thankfully, that is not in the Bible. The Hospel is so much better than that.

dermdoc said:

---

The Greek words in question are aionios kolasis. Google scholarly articles on aionios kolasis. It is much too voluminous of a subject to discuss here adequately. Ramelli's work is excellent.
Did you realize that the most accurate translations, like Young's Literal Translation, do not even have the word eternal in their translation of a Matthew 25 46?
I will give a short synopsis. There have been word aionios should be translated by strict Greek translation as "of an age" and not eternal. It's translated meaning also depends on what noun it is used with.
The Greek word "kolasis" is generally used as a pruning or corrective punishment. The Greek word for retributive punishment is "timoria".
A lot of the confusion came about because Augustine self admittedly was bad at Greek translation. He was the one who saw aionios as erroneously meaning "eternal" and the same in both instances.
i honestly can not do this justice as there have been volumes written about this. If you are truly interested, I strongly suggest Googling scholarly articles on "aionios kolasis". And read Ramelli. She is excelllent.

---

I'm not trying to enter into this debate, but I think it's important for the neutral observer to know that "anionon" is the same word translated as "eternal" when referring to eternal life with God. I haven't looked into Ramelli's work, but if he wants to be skeptical of that word, he needs to apply that to eternal life as well.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Greek words in question are aionios kolasis. Google scholarly articles on aionios kolasis. It is much too voluminous of a subject to discuss here adequately. Ramelli's work is excellent.
Did you realize that the most accurate translations, like Young's Literal Translation, do not even have the word eternal in their translation of a Matthew 25 46?
I will give a short synopsis. There have been word aionios should be translated by strict Greek translation as "of an age" and not eternal. It's translated meaning also depends on what noun it is used with.
The Greek word "kolasis" is generally used as a pruning or corrective punishment. The Greek word for retributive punishment is "timoria".
A lot of the confusion came about because Augustine self admittedly was bad at Greek translation. He was the one who saw aionios as erroneously meaning "eternal" and the same in both instances.
i honestly can not do this justice as there have been volumes written about this. If you are truly interested, I strongly suggest Googling scholarly articles on "aionios kolasis". And read Ramelli. She is excelllent.

---

I'm not trying to enter into this debate, but I think it's important for the neutral observer to know that "anionon" is the same word translated as "eternal" when referring to eternal life with God. I haven't looked into Ramelli's work, but if he wants to be skeptical of that word, he needs to apply that to eternal life as well.

---

That is exhaustingly looked at. And with all due respect, Ramelli is a woman.

I think you would be shocked at the volumes of writing on aionios kolasis if you Google it.

TPS_Report said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

---

Depends on which translation. Young's Literal Translation is usually considered very accurate as per the original Greek. King James is considered not very good. Lots of bias. Did you know that the King James translators translated the same word "Sheol" in the OT half the time accurately as the grave and half the time inaccurately as hell?
What even makes it more ridiculous is that the Jews had no concept of "hell" so would never have used that word or entertained that concept. Completely invented by the translators. And it was biased to reinforce the ECT theology.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Greek words in question are aionios kolasis. Google scholarly articles on aionios kolasis. It is much too voluminous of a subject to discuss here adequately. Ramelli's work is excellent.
Did you realize that the most accurate translations, like Young's Literal Translation, do not even have the word eternal in their translation of a Matthew 25 46?
I will give a short synopsis. There have been word aionios should be translated by strict Greek translation as "of an age" and not eternal. It's translated meaning also depends on what noun it is used with.
The Greek word "kolasis" is generally used as a pruning or corrective punishment. The Greek word for retributive punishment is "timoria".
A lot of the confusion came about because Augustine self admittedly was bad at Greek translation. He was the one who saw aionios as erroneously meaning "eternal" and the same in both instances.
i honestly can not do this justice as there have been volumes written about this. If you are truly interested, I strongly suggest Googling scholarly articles on "aionios kolasis". And read Ramelli. She is excelllent.

---

I'm not trying to enter into this debate, but I think it's important for the neutral observer to know that "anionon" is the same word translated as "eternal" when referring to eternal life with God. I haven't looked into Ramelli's work, but if he wants to be skeptical of that word, he needs to apply that to eternal life as well.

---

That is exhaustingly looked at. And with all due respect, Ramelli is a woman.

I think you would be shocked at the volumes of writing on aionios kolasis if you Google it.

---

I did look into this pretty extensively about 15 years ago. Maybe I ran into Ramelli's stuff and don't remember. My issue is with the anionion part. You critique Sheol being translated two different ways, but you're ok with it meaning eternal for life with God but not with punishment?

I don't see any point in figuring out what kind of punishment it is if we can't agree on if the word means eternal or not.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Greek words in question are aionios kolasis. Google scholarly articles on aionios kolasis. It is much too voluminous of a subject to discuss here adequately. Ramelli's work is excellent.
Did you realize that the most accurate translations, like Young's Literal Translation, do not even have the word eternal in their translation of a Matthew 25 46?
I will give a short synopsis. There have been word aionios should be translated by strict Greek translation as "of an age" and not eternal. It's translated meaning also depends on what noun it is used with.
The Greek word "kolasis" is generally used as a pruning or corrective punishment. The Greek word for retributive punishment is "timoria".
A lot of the confusion came about because Augustine self admittedly was bad at Greek translation. He was the one who saw aionios as erroneously meaning "eternal" and the same in both instances.
i honestly can not do this justice as there have been volumes written about this. If you are truly interested, I strongly suggest Googling scholarly articles on "aionios kolasis". And read Ramelli. She is excelllent.

---

I'm not trying to enter into this debate, but I think it's important for the neutral observer to know that "anionon" is the same word translated as "eternal" when referring to eternal life with God. I haven't looked into Ramelli's work, but if he wants to be skeptical of that word, he needs to apply that to eternal life as well.

---

That is exhaustingly looked at. And with all due respect, Ramelli is a woman.

I think you would be shocked at the volumes of writing on aionios kolasis if you Google it.

---

I did look into this pretty extensively about 15 years ago. Maybe I ran into Ramelli's stuff and don't remember. My issue is with the anionion part. You critique Sheol being translated two different ways, but you're ok with it meaning eternal for life with God but not with punishment?

I don't see any point in figuring out what kind of punishment it is if we can't agree on if the word means eternal or not.

---

Fair enough. At least you actually looked into it. And considering the volume of writing that has been done on this subject, I doubt we will all come to the same conclusion. Most people just accept what they are taught in Sunday School or whatever their tradition teaches.

dermdoc said:

---

TPS_Report said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

---

Depends on which translation. Young's Literal Translation is usually considered very accurate as per the original Greek. King James is considered not very good. Lots of bias. Did you know that the King James translators translated the same word "Sheol" in the OT half the time accurately as the grave and half the time inaccurately as hell?
What even makes it more ridiculous is that the Jews had no concept of "hell" so would never have used that word or entertained that concept. Completely invented by the translators. And it was biased to reinforce the ECT theology.

---

Was the original Greek a translation of oral Aramaic and Hebrew?

TPS_Report said:

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dermdoc said:

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TPS_Report said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

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*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

---

Depends on which translation. Young's Literal Translation is usually considered very accurate as per the original Greek. King James is considered not very good. Lots of bias. Did you know that the King James translators translated the same word "Sheol" in the OT half the time accurately as the grave and half the time inaccurately as hell?
What even makes it more ridiculous is that the Jews had no concept of "hell" so would never have used that word or entertained that concept. Completely invented by the translators. And it was biased to reinforce the ECT theology.

---

Was the original Greek a translation of oral Aramaic and Hebrew?

---

Great question. Jesus probably spoke primarily in Aramaic. His words were translated into Koine Greek by numerous individuals and probably relied heavily on oral tradition.

When it comes to Matthew 25:46, the translation comes down to the Greek word for eternal, aionios. Derm I know you have read Rob Bell's book Love Wins, which pushes Universalism (We've discussed this a couple of years ago) and he uses the translation that the word "aion" has a variety of meanings, including "an age"....which he contends means that punishment will be for a "season", not eternal. Several times in the New Testament, aionios, is used with the word "chronos" or time, where put together it would refer to "lasting for an age". However, according to scholars (like Dr. George Parsenios....who has a Masters in the Greek Orthodox School of Theology)........the word "chronos" must be attached to "aionios" for the interpretation to mean "for a season" or "for an age". But, in Matthew 25:46 it is NOT attached to the word "chronos", and thus means "eternal" and nothing else.
***Plus, in verse 46, Jesus uses the SAME word for "eternal" life and "eternal" death......why would Jesus use the same word for both? Does one really think "eternal" only applies to Life, but when it comes to the punishment phase the exact same word he uses for Life now only means "for a season"?

And I would contend that Matthew 25:46 is not necessarily the ONLY place where we see eternal punishment....you often say Paul never mentioned Hell, (and he might not have use the word "hell") but in his letter to the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians1:8-9 Paul says, " He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (NIV).....and the same Greek word, aionios, is used for "everlasting".

dermdoc said:

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TPS_Report said:

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dermdoc said:

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TPS_Report said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bighunter43 said:

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In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

---

Depends on which translation. Young's Literal Translation is usually considered very accurate as per the original Greek. King James is considered not very good. Lots of bias. Did you know that the King James translators translated the same word "Sheol" in the OT half the time accurately as the grave and half the time inaccurately as hell?
What even makes it more ridiculous is that the Jews had no concept of "hell" so would never have used that word or entertained that concept. Completely invented by the translators. And it was biased to reinforce the ECT theology.

---

Was the original Greek a translation of oral Aramaic and Hebrew?

---

Great question. Jesus probably spoke primarily in Aramaic. His words were translated into Koine Greek by numerous individuals and probably relied heavily on oral tradition.

---

So we cannot eliminate the possibility of translation errors from oral Aramaic to written Greek.

TPS_Report said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TPS_Report said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TPS_Report said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Bighunter43 said:

---

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus speaks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, there are typically 2 schools of thought about what Jesus meant, and many interpret that to mean when the Holy Spirit is calling one to be saved, and one essentially rejects Christ and their heart hardens to the point where they refuse to consider accepting Him. (The other thought was that he was only talking to the Pharisees at the moment)...............but either way....Jesus specifically says " will not be forgiven in this life or the next".....so, if we are to believe Jesus, then I can't see anyone who blasphemy's the Holy Spirit ever being allowed to be "reconciled to heaven", which would essentially make the case for Universalism obsolete. It's in Mark 2 as well....." but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

---

*hand claps*

---

Eternal sin does not mean eternal punishment. The words are not there. Scripture says the wages of sin are death. Not hell. Yet the latter is taught widely. It is an clear error.

---

Jesus says it will not be forgiven…in this age or the age to come. If so, then that would mean they cannot be reconciled…therefore how can that not be eternal?

---

What do you think the unforgivable sin is? Can you show me any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell? I was taught this frequently
And how many verses link the word eternal and punishment?.

---

As far as Jesus coming to save us from Hell…1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath!" And John 3:36…"for whoever rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath REMAINS on them."

As far as linking the word eternal and punishment …How about Matthew 25:46…."then they will go away to the eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!"

The thing about Universalism (Ultimate Reconciliation) is that if that's true, then many (dare I say most) would one day get to Heaven without the cross! Jesus says no one comes to the Father but by me!! If God planned to save everyone in the end, especially those that rejected Christ in this life, then what was the point of letting his son suffer and die a brutal death on the cross? There is only ONE way…through Jesus. The Bible never mentions there will be a temporary "punishment" for those that rejected Jesus in life, then get to go ahead and come to the Father anyway.

Derm…I know without a doubt you are a believer and have accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. That's the thing, the Bible 100% assures us that IF we believe and confess Him as our Lord and Savior we will have eternal life! Ultimate Reconciliation (Universalism) at best…is only a guess…there is zero % assurance of it!! It's a maybe…perhaps….possibly…kind of doctrine. Let's say someone stumbles upon this or the other topics about Universalism and decides because of the discussion that they can live a life of sin and that Universalism will one day get them eternal life anyway on the "broken road" so to speak. And if, (and I wholeheartedly believe) that this is a false doctrine, then that person would miss out on eternal life and the relationship with Jesus! Personally, i wouldn't want to answer for causing that person to stumble because i pushed a false doctrine….easiest thing to do….preach the cross that we are 100% assured of…peace!

---

Been doing this a long time. It doesn't work like that.
There is only one verse that links eternal and punishment. And that is Matthew 25 46. Which is a terrible translation.
Teaching anything other than the wages of sin are not hell but death is apostasy in my opinion.

---

How many translation errors are in the English Bible?

---

Depends on which translation. Young's Literal Translation is usually considered very accurate as per the original Greek. King James is considered not very good. Lots of bias. Did you know that the King James translators translated the same word "Sheol" in the OT half the time accurately as the grave and half the time inaccurately as hell?
What even makes it more ridiculous is that the Jews had no concept of "hell" so would never have used that word or entertained that concept. Completely invented by the translators. And it was biased to reinforce the ECT theology.

---

Was the original Greek a translation of oral Aramaic and Hebrew?

---

Great question. Jesus probably spoke primarily in Aramaic. His words were translated into Koine Greek by numerous individuals and probably relied heavily on oral tradition.

---

So we cannot eliminate the possibility of translation errors from oral Aramaic to written Greek.

---

Correct. That is why I believe oral tradition is very important. Early church services would have had to be oral teachings as there were no Bibles and almost no one could read.