First Black 4 star General Marine.

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BoerneGator
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 10:22a, 7/24/22
AG
Combat experience would serve any commander well in time of war, but it needn't be a requirement if other qualifications are present; judgment chief among them.

When the Commander in Chief doesn't possess good judgment, who can expect more from his appointments?
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Emotional Support Cobra
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10:27a, 7/24/22
AG
Wasn't there a thread 2 weeks ago about a ~ 100 year old veteran who had marksmanship medals on his uniform and there was a whole discussion about who dressed him and if he had stolen valor????
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GAC06
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In reply to Emotional Support Cobra • 10:30a, 7/24/22
AG
His badges were comically afu
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Get Off My Lawn
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10:37a, 7/24/22
The most impressive part of his record is making Col as an artilleryman (5/11 and Battery are your clues to his primary MOS prior to losing that as a flag officer).

There are very few openings to make O-6 for a Marine Redleg. This also explains where his career is less likely to see CAR worthy action (ex: I never got a CAR despite lethal effects on target as a Forward Observer). It doesn't, however, make the rest of is record impressive, nor the poor shooting. You lock in your badges at some point, and it's silly not to try to lock in as a double E (expert in both rifle and pistol).

Oh - and for the record, it's a 3 mile run - not a 2 mile. But I understand how folks make that assumption when they see a maxing time of 18 min and are used to Army levels of "fitness!"
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lb3
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In reply to BoerneGator • 10:48a, 7/24/22
AG
I suspect promotions were slow between the wars but Ike held the rank of Major or 16 years. Not exactly on the fast track until he was.
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titan
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In reply to Emotional Support Cobra • 10:50a, 7/24/22
S
Emotional Support Cobra said:
Wasn't there a thread 2 weeks ago about a ~ 100 year old veteran who had marksmanship medals on his uniform and there was a whole discussion about who dressed him and if he had stolen valor????
You may be remembering wrong. It was other Marines talking and arguing. Not civilians like us saying it.
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WestTexAg12
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:52a, 7/24/22
AG
GAC06 said:
Marksmanship isn't very important for any officer, and utterly meaningless for a general

You must be a POG. It's highly important for a grunt.
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Love Gun
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In reply to Bronco71 • 10:53a, 7/24/22
Bronco71 said:
Yesterday said:
As a fellow Marine I salute this man for 35 years of service to the Corps. With that said, how often do you see someone get promoted to four stars without top marksmanship in either rifle or pistol and no combat action?

If the Biden administration hadn't show blatant racism with the Supreme Court I'm not sure I would question this. But here I am, wondering. Which isn't fair to this Marine but racism by the Biden administration has consequences.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/north-texas-native-to-become-first-black-four-star-general-in-the-marines
I hate to jump in the middle of an argument over CAR and marksmanship medals among Marines, but this general does have a Bronze Star (second row from top, left side) which, unless things have changed dramatically in the 28 years since I retired from the Army, is only awarded to people for service in a combat zone.

Here's the deal with the Bronze Star. During OIF and OEF, that award became seriously diluted because officers used it to boost their resumes. If you were a unit CO that was deployed to a combat zone, and your unit didn't do anything stupid, you pretty much met the criteria for the award. I've seen so many CO's get those just for successful deployments that it is pretty much meaningless nowadays. The sad part is, you'll see more officers with basic Bronze Stars that you will enlisted folks. The enlisted are the ones more deserving, in my opinion, especially in combat zones.

Here's the kicker: You'll want to look to see if there is a "combat V" on it. It is a little gold V that is attached to the ribbon. Combat V's are awarded in conjunction with the Bronze Star (or other personal awards) to signify that it was awarded for valor while in combat. If it doesn't have that, they were just in the right place, at the right time, and had the right people writing it up and approving it.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to lb3 • 10:54a, 7/24/22
AG
lb3 said:
I suspect promotions were slow between the wars but Ike held the rank of Major or 16 years. Not exactly on the fast track until he was.

We barely had an army from 1918 to 1940. Prior to WWII, going back to the Indian Wars, glacially slow advancement through officer ranks was the norm.
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GAC06
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In reply to WestTexAg12 • 10:56a, 7/24/22
AG
WestTexAg12 said:
GAC06 said:
Marksmanship isn't very important for any officer, and utterly meaningless for a general

You must be a POG. It's highly important for a grunt.


I'm someone that realizes that a Marine officer's utility is not tied to his rifle marksmanship, and it's utterly irrelevant for a freaking four star general.

Maybe I was a crappy harrier pilot and couldn't put bombs on target but hey at least I could shoot expert right? So dumb. If a couple LCpl's want to puff their chests out and make fun of each other over a shooting badge they're welcome to do so.
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WestTexAg12
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In reply to 45-70Ag • 10:59a, 7/24/22
AG
45-70Ag said:
If he somehow avoided combat during the first Iraq war, OIF/OEF and Afghanistan………I'm not even sure how that's possible.

If you're going to be a leader of those going into combat, you should have been there yourself. Unless this guy is a pogue, in which case he shouldn't lead a combat force at all.

I guess Lieutenants coming out of IOC don't deserve to lead a platoon into combat? Dudes get sent where they're told and sometimes that's not to combat zones. However, the training, character, and mental and physical capacity that one possesses gives them the ability to adapt to combat, even during the initial shock.


And it's POG, not pogue.
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Ulysses90
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In reply to Bronco71 • 11:01a, 7/24/22
AG
Bronco71 said:
Yesterday said:
As a fellow Marine I salute this man for 35 years of service to the Corps. With that said, how often do you see someone get promoted to four stars without top marksmanship in either rifle or pistol and no combat action?

If the Biden administration hadn't show blatant racism with the Supreme Court I'm not sure I would question this. But here I am, wondering. Which isn't fair to this Marine but racism by the Biden administration has consequences.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/north-texas-native-to-become-first-black-four-star-general-in-the-marines
I hate to jump in the middle of an argument over CAR and marksmanship medals among Marines, but this general does have a Bronze Star (second row from top, left side) which, unless things have changed dramatically in the 28 years since I retired from the Army, is only awarded to people for service in a combat zone.

As an Army guy, I have no comment one way or the other regarding the marksmanship medals since I can never remember wearing them on my class A uniform as an officer.


A Bronze Star with a V device is substantial and almost always means that it was earned in close proximity to flying metal and explosions and will be accompanied by a CAR. Without a V device, a Bronze Star is roughly equivalent to a Meritorious Service Medal earned in an exotic FPO. The V device is present to clearly delineate the conditions under which the decoration was earned. An unauthorized V device was the story that David Hackworth was about to publish on Jeremy Boorda when Boorda shot himself.
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Love Gun
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In reply to GAC06 • 11:07a, 7/24/22
GAC06 said:
WestTexAg12 said:
GAC06 said:
Marksmanship isn't very important for any officer, and utterly meaningless for a general

You must be a POG. It's highly important for a grunt.


I'm someone that realizes that a Marine officer's utility is not tied to his rifle marksmanship, and it's utterly irrelevant for a freaking four star general.

Maybe I was a crappy harrier pilot and couldn't put bombs on target but hey at least I could shoot expert right? So dumb. If a couple LCpl's want to puff their chests out and make fun of each other over a shooting badge they're welcome to do so.

No offense, but I've been around plenty of Marine pilots that couldn't care less about marksmanship, among other fundamentals that make the Marine Corps what it is. I've seen pilots piss and moan because they had to go to the range for their annual quals. I've even seen pilots show up at the range in their flight suits.

We get it. You don't typically handle weapons, much less rifles. However, when it comes time when you become career designated and subsequently command slated, your official portrait says a lot about you. We enlisted tend to view "lead by example" as being pretty important. CO's set the standard. If you can't shoot for crap as a Marine, what are your expectations for the LCpl's in your command?

With this general being in the combat arms, there's no excuse for him to not have several expert quals - especially since his days of shooting were much earlier in his career.
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GAC06
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In reply to Love Gun • 11:14a, 7/24/22
AG
I shot expert and so did most pilots in my community because it's easy. We didn't have to ask to avoid a week at the range, you'd look like an idiot asking to go waste a week shooting paper instead of training in your much more useful weapon. Oh and we were all career designated before reaching our first fleet squadron.

"Every Marine is a rifleman" is a useful ethos, but within reason. It's ludicrous to give a crap about how a senior officer shot at the range.
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BoerneGator
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In reply to GAC06 • 11:14a, 7/24/22
AG
Quote:
I'm someone that realizes that a Marine officer's utility is not tied to his rifle marksmanship, and it's utterly irrelevant for a freaking four star general.
You're missing the point. For a junior officer troop leader (platoon or company commander) it is VERY important to achieve Expert status with both the rifle and pistol so as to be able to display the badges on your class A uniform. The reason(s) should be obvious.

Beyond the Infantry Company level, and certainly at the General officer level, I'll agree it has no practical bearing, but it still makes a better impression to those "in the know"...
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GAC06
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In reply to BoerneGator • 11:19a, 7/24/22
AG
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric
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BoerneGator
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In reply to GAC06 • 11:22a, 7/24/22
AG
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric
Had you ever led troops (especially in combat), you'd have a different perspective. But it's obvious you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Semper Fi
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Love Gun
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In reply to GAC06 • 11:30a, 7/24/22
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric

Spoken like a true pilot.

As long as you get your hours and the occasional Air Medal, everything else is gravy, right?
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to BoerneGator • 11:55a, 7/24/22
BoerneGator said:
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric
Had you ever led troops (especially in combat), you'd have a different perspective. But it's obvious you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Semper Fi
I would add, that, for a artillery captain (when he would've last needed to shoot rifle) - especially one whose company time consisted (at first glance) of hanging out in Oki and going to help with a wildfire... some of these "meaningless" things really are noticed and taken as a mark of credibility by the gun bunnies.

Just like shinning your boots and sharp sleeve rolls: showing that you do the things that don't matter builds common identity and trust.

Once you've proven yourself in other matters: the silly things become silly again. But if you aren't a proven entity with a strong track record AND you show mediocrity elsewhere... well... it's not a good look.
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GAC06
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In reply to Love Gun • 12:41p, 7/24/22
AG
Love Gun said:
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric

Spoken like a true pilot.

As long as you get your hours and the occasional Air Medal, everything else is gravy, right?


Pretty sure the grunts I supported in combat cared more about the accuracy of my bombs and 25mm than how often I sighted in on a barrel with an M4
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GAC06
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In reply to BoerneGator • 12:44p, 7/24/22
AG
BoerneGator said:
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric
Had you ever led troops (especially in combat), you'd have a different perspective. But it's obvious you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Semper Fi


Troops firing rifles in combat should be concerned about marksmanship. It's utterly irrelevant for senior officers.

How well did Chesty Puller shoot? How many Chinese did he shoot at Chosin?

How well did Napoleon shoot?

Robert E Lee?

How well did MacArthur shoot? He was known for leading his troops into combat armed only with a riding crop.

But yeah the marksmanship badge of a four star general is really important guys. Good Lord.
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BoerneGator
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In reply to GAC06 • 12:45p, 7/24/22
AG
GAC06 said:
Love Gun said:
GAC06 said:
It makes an impression on people who care about an irrelevant metric

Spoken like a true pilot.

As long as you get your hours and the occasional Air Medal, everything else is gravy, right?


Pretty sure the grunts I supported cared more about the accuracy of my bombs and 25mm than how often I sighted in on a barrel with an M4
Why do you continue with the straw men arguments? This has nothing to do with YOU, nor your capabilities as a pilot! In fact, you're simply showing your ass!
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GAC06
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In reply to BoerneGator • 12:47p, 7/24/22
AG
He brought up me being a pilot, and I responded. Read it again.
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Eliminatus
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12:49p, 7/24/22
AG
Gotta love the officer/senior enlisted dick measuring here.

I picked up E4 three days before I got out and my ultimate bragging right is that I could drink the MRE coffee AND eat the chili mac without ****ting myself on patrol.

Can any of y'all do that??

Didn't think so.

I win. I am all that is man.
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GAC06
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12:50p, 7/24/22
AG
This guy didn't even bother to wear his badges! What's he trying to hide!?!?

https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/puller-lewis-burwell-chesty-1898-1971/
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cevans_40
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12:52p, 7/24/22
AG
As an uneducated observer, can someone tell me what matters as far this promotion goes because all I have yet to conclude is that being able to accurately fire a rifle and pistol somehow doesn't.
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Love Gun
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In reply to GAC06 • 12:54p, 7/24/22
GAC06 said:
He brought up me being a pilot, and I responded. Read it again.

I have read it, and it further reinforces what YOU do with YOUR jet. You're missing the point of the big picture, literally and figuratively.

I once served with a Marine pilot that told me when I told him there was a formation for all Marines later that day, "I'm not a Marine; I'm an officer". Imagine how that was received around our squadron.

He went to A&M, too. Are you sure you're not that guy?
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GAC06
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In reply to Love Gun • 12:59p, 7/24/22
AG
Ok, how specifically would this general earning an expert rifle and pistol qualification make him more qualified to lead AFRICOM?
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Love Gun
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In reply to GAC06 • 1:01p, 7/24/22
GAC06 said:
This guy didn't even bother to wear his badges! What's he trying to hide!?!?

https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/puller-lewis-burwell-chesty-1898-1971/

You mean Chesty Puller? This guy? With expert marksmanship badges? Him?



Give it a rest, sir.
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In reply to GAC06 • 1:04p, 7/24/22
AG
GAC06 said:
This guy didn't even bother to wear his badges! What's he trying to hide!?!?

https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/puller-lewis-burwell-chesty-1898-1971/


I always left off my good cookie. How embarrassing for a grunt.

Was nice to keep it even too. Number of ribbons is whatever to me. I ended up with 13 in four years. Couple of very rough deployments will do that. They had to have a special battalion ceremony just to had out the purple hearts from our last pump. 60+ and that was for those who were able to make it and weren't in hospitals. I don't even know where mine is anymore.

It is interesting to get that far though without a few ribbons like the CAR. That one is a pretty big deal obviously to Marines. But it happens I guess. Timing and place. I went to school with infantry Marines just recently that served an entire enlistment and never fired a shot in anger. Floored me but once I remembered the wars were truly over, I realized I was the one who was different now. At least for four year'ers.
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GAC06
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In reply to Love Gun • 1:04p, 7/24/22
AG
Why wasn't he wearing them as a general? Maybe because it's irrelevant?

Wanna take a stab at my post about other prominent generals? Did marksmanship impact their ability to lead?
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Yesterday
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In reply to cevans_40 • 1:05p, 7/24/22
AG
cevans_40 said:
As an uneducated observer, can someone tell me what matters as far this promotion goes because all I have yet to conclude is that being able to accurately fire a rifle and pistol somehow doesn't.


Biden has made major appointments based largely on race. This and the fact that this Marine has a few discrepancies (in my opinion) make me wonder if this was a "look at Biden, he promoted the first black man to four star general" instead of "this general is the perfect man for the rank."
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Sea Speed
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In reply to GAC06 • 1:06p, 7/24/22
AG
GAC06 said:
Ok, how specifically would this general earning an expert rifle and pistol qualification make him more qualified to lead AFRICOM?


Dude I'm on the outside looking in and even I understand the points that are being made here. as commander of africom, no, it probably doesn't matter. As a leader of Marines, yes, it matters to the people he will be leading. That is literally all that these guys are saying. It's really not that hard.
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Love Gun
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In reply to cevans_40 • 1:06p, 7/24/22
cevans_40 said:
As an uneducated observer, can someone tell me what matters as far this promotion goes because all I have yet to conclude is that being able to accurately fire a rifle and pistol somehow doesn't.

Promotion-wise, it matters because it shows your proficiency in something that we, as Marines, take a personal pride in. Fundamentally, you want to excel in all that you do. For promotion selection, would the promotion board members vote for you with multiple expert badges, or the next guy that can't achieve the highest qualification unlike his peers?

As a commander, you want to set the example for all others under your charge, regardless of you think it's meaningless or doesn't "fit" your MOS.
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Love Gun
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In reply to GAC06 • 1:09p, 7/24/22
GAC06 said:
Why wasn't he wearing them as a general? Maybe because it's irrelevant?

Wanna take a stab at my post about other prominent generals? Did marksmanship impact their ability to lead?

Or maybe, just maybe, that he didn't have room for them with the rest of his stack. Is he supposed to wear ribbons on his back?

After all, marksmanship badges are considered optional on the class A uniform per the commander's discretion. I wouldn't expect you, as a pilot, to know that, though.
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