BG Knocc Out said:

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YokelRidesAgain said:

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Don't judge a book by its cover, etc. etc., but the shooter's appearance does not give me confidence that he is all there, mentally speaking.

Photo at this link: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/kansas-city-ralph-yarl-shooting-tuesday/index.html

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Why? BC he's got a jacked up eye?

The guy probably feels horrible. On top of nearly killing a young man who was very likely making an innocent mistake, the whole country will now view him as a crazy old racist who likes to hunt down young black men for fun. He also faces potential life in prison. Looks like an old man whose world has been turned upside down and hasn't slept a wink in days.

Posting image so people don't have to give CNN any clicks...

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They actually changed the photo in the article. This was the original.

He was supposed to pick his brothers up at their friend's house on 115th Terrace, but he accidentally went to a house on 115th Street instead. He had the address, he just went to the wrong house.

Quote:

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There was one in Louisiana, I think, a few years ago in which a Japanese foreign exchange student was shot at the wrong house.

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Yes
1992 Students Looking for a Party. .44Mag killed that dude dressed as Travolta
I noted the Scottish guy's case in Houston in 1994 as well in another post.


Whenever I have had an unexpected knock on my front door late at night, I look out the window to see who it is.
I don't open the door.
Sure I could open the door, blast 'em with a shotgun, but why give up my secure position inside the house behind a locked door?
Now if they start beating on the door to come in, then boom boom.
It is one thing to whack a bad guy.
But in the two cases above and the one in the OP, these were not bad guys.
Even if you whack the bad guy like Gary Black did in CO, then cops will whack you and get off scott free.

My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

Did the homeowner pull the trigger too soon? A black man ringing my doorbell at 10pm will cause me to be defensive, but I'm not taking life threatening action until my life is clearly being threatened. There's way too much at stake to just point and shoot because a scenario looks suspicious.

beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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Yes it is. But according to some on here it's justification to shoot someone.

https://www.kmbc.com/article/ralph-yarl-andrew-lester-suspect-out-on-bond/43634558

AggieUSMC said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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From cnn:

"Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN."

No bill.

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No bill? I don't think that's sufficient cause to fire through the door. Simply pulling on the handle is not actively trying to break in.

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From Missouri law.
Pulling on a door handle is the same thing as attempting to open the door, right?

" (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or"

beanbean said:

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88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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Yes it is. But according to some on here it's justification to shoot someone.

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Who here said that? Post their username/s.

aggielostinETX said:

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https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=563.031

MO seems to say that an attempt to enter a residence and a fear of threat in your residence is allowed under the deadly force statute. Unless I am miss reading. They are also a castle/no retreat state.

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You can only use physical force in Missouri if it is reasonable to defend yourself or another against the imminent use of unlawful force by another. You can only use deadly force to defend yourself against the imminent use of unlawful force in certain circumstances, including if someone is trying to unlawfully enter your residence.

The use of deadly force would still have to be reasonable to defend oneself or another against unlawful force.

In other words, Missouri law does not allow the use of deadly force simply because someone is trying to unlawfully enter your home.

This guy will be going to prison if he can't show it was reasonable to believe the kid was going to use force against him for reasons beyond him believing the kid tried to open his door. (Well, the State will have to show it was not reasonable but you get what I mean.)

aggielostinETX said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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on a serious note, UPS and Fedex are probably about to start offering their delivery drivers serious hazard pay.

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The next time, one of those drivers deliver something at 10 PM and tries to open my front door, will be a first.

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Around here, many people don't lock their doors and the UPS and Fedex drivers do open the doors and set the packages inside to keep them out of the weather. After all, for all they know, the homeowner may be gone for a week or two.

AgBandsman said:

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Did the homeowner pull the trigger too soon? A black man ringing my doorbell at 10pm will cause me to be defensive, but I'm not taking life threatening action until my life is clearly being threatened. There's way too much at stake to just point and shoot because a scenario looks suspicious.

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It would cause me to be very, very puzzled.

I don't have a doorbell.

This thread sucks

AGinHI said:

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beanbean said:

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88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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Yes it is. But according to some on here it's justification to shoot someone.

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Who here said that? Post their username/s.

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LOL there are a bunch of posts that are saying pulling the storm door handle equates to breaking and entering which equates to a good shoot. You can see them with your own eyes.

Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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From cnn:

"Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN."

No bill.

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No bill? I don't think that's sufficient cause to fire through the door. Simply pulling on the handle is not actively trying to break in.

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From Missouri law.
Pulling on a door handle is the same thing as attempting to open the door, right?

" (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or"

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You missed the first part of the statute where it says "when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself". This means the actions must be reasonable and proportionate and the force must be properly escalated. Simply pulling on the handle would call for a verbal warning as the initial action. You don't immediately jump to firing through the door.

AggieUSMC said:

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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From cnn:

"Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN."

No bill.

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No bill? I don't think that's sufficient cause to fire through the door. Simply pulling on the handle is not actively trying to break in.

---

From Missouri law.
Pulling on a door handle is the same thing as attempting to open the door, right?

" (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or"

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You missed the first part of the statute where it says "when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself". This means the actions must be reasonable and proportionate and the force must be properly escalated. Simply pulling on the handle would call for a verbal warning as the initial action. You don't immediately jump to firing through the door.

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Supposedly there are a bunch of no trespassing signs up.

That counts as a warning, right?

The asymmetry here is important. Young physically imposing guy vs an 80 year old guy means the old guy can perceive a threat of great bodily harm in a situation that you might not necessarily perceive the same level of threat.

I have no idea what really happened. If the kid was yanking violently on the door, then this might be legit self defense. If he just rang the doorbell, not so sure.

88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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Yeah... if the storm door isn't locked.

coas

Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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From cnn:

"Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN."

No bill.

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No bill? I don't think that's sufficient cause to fire through the door. Simply pulling on the handle is not actively trying to break in.

---

From Missouri law.
Pulling on a door handle is the same thing as attempting to open the door, right?

" (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or"

---

You missed the first part of the statute where it says "when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself". This means the actions must be reasonable and proportionate and the force must be properly escalated. Simply pulling on the handle would call for a verbal warning as the initial action. You don't immediately jump to firing through the door.

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Supposedly there are a bunch of no trespassing signs up.

That counts as a warning, right?

The asymmetry here is important. Young physically imposing guy vs an 80 year old guy means the old guy can perceive a threat of great bodily harm in a situation that you might not necessarily perceive the same level of threat.

I have no idea what really happened. If the kid was yanking violently on the door, then this might be legit self defense. If he just rang the doorbell, not so sure.

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Physically imposing guy?

Have you seen pictures of this kid at all? He isn't what I would describe at a physically imposing guy.

JamesPShelley said:

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88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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Yeah... if the storm door isn't locked.

coas

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Ok. How do you know the storm door is locked if the minute you touch the handle it is a threat of entry?

88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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I would never open someone's storm door. A solicitor did that at my house recently one evening after knocking and me not answering. I was home alone. It could have ended badly for him.

nai06 said:

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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AggieUSMC said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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From cnn:

"Lester told police he fired immediately after answering the doorbell when he saw Ralph pulling on an exterior door handle, according to the probable cause document obtained by CNN."

No bill.

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No bill? I don't think that's sufficient cause to fire through the door. Simply pulling on the handle is not actively trying to break in.

---

From Missouri law.
Pulling on a door handle is the same thing as attempting to open the door, right?

" (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person; or"

---

You missed the first part of the statute where it says "when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself". This means the actions must be reasonable and proportionate and the force must be properly escalated. Simply pulling on the handle would call for a verbal warning as the initial action. You don't immediately jump to firing through the door.

---

Supposedly there are a bunch of no trespassing signs up.

That counts as a warning, right?

The asymmetry here is important. Young physically imposing guy vs an 80 year old guy means the old guy can perceive a threat of great bodily harm in a situation that you might not necessarily perceive the same level of threat.

I have no idea what really happened. If the kid was yanking violently on the door, then this might be legit self defense. If he just rang the doorbell, not so sure.

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Physically imposing guy?

Have you seen pictures of this kid at all? He isn't what I would describe at a physically imposing guy.

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Physically imposing to an 85 year old man is my 12 year old daughter.

Do you believe the guy was justified in shooting the teen twice? Once through the door, and again execution style?

barbacoa taco said:

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Do you believe the guy was justified in shooting the teen twice? Once through the door, and again execution style?

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Again making up facts. Shoe me evidence of "execution style" shooting.

Did I read right that this guy an 1888 S&W .32?

After being shot the first time, he fell and was shot again.

Regardless of how you feel about my terminology, answer the question.

We're past 48 hours, and everything we know screams "bad shoot". And since he's already been charged, I don't see any reason for outrage.

And I've also heard exactly zero evidence this had anything to do with anyone's race.

barbacoa taco said:

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on a serious note, UPS and Fedex are probably about to start offering their delivery drivers serious hazard pay.

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Tell me you don't get packages delivered.

They walk/run up, put the package down, take a pic, ring bell, and haul ass back to the car or truck. They don't wait at the door anymore to hand it to you.

redcrayon said:

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88planoAg said:

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beanbean said:

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My wife has a prescription that gets delivered to our house from a delivery person from the pharmacy. It's always a black dude who is the delivery person and he opens the storm door to set the bag between the glass storm door and our front door so it is secured and kind of out of sight. I guess if I shot the dude next time he opens that storm door, I'll be free and clear?

(Of course I'd never do this because I'm not an idiot)

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Isn't it a thing to open the storm door to knock on the actual door?

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I would never open someone's storm door. A solicitor did that at my house recently one evening after knocking and me not answering. I was home alone. It could have ended badly for him.

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I always open the storm door to knock if there isn't a door bell. Too many times just knocking on the storm door has taught me they can't hear it as well. I think this is just an individual thing. Plus I see the primary door as the no go point. Just like if they had an entry gate and then you have to walk a few steps to knock on the front door.

eric76 said:

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aggielostinETX said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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on a serious note, UPS and Fedex are probably about to start offering their delivery drivers serious hazard pay.

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The next time, one of those drivers deliver something at 10 PM and tries to open my front door, will be a first.

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Around here, many people don't lock their doors and the UPS and Fedex drivers do open the doors and set the packages inside to keep them out of the weather. After all, for all they know, the homeowner may be gone for a week or two.

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Uhhh, thanks for that?

barbacoa taco said:

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After being shot the first time, he fell and was shot again.

Regardless of how you feel about my terminology, answer the question.

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If he felt a threat still existed, I have no issues with it. You continue to engage a threat until the threat is eliminated. It doesn't matter if that threat is a 16 year old kid.

What I do see from you questioning is you have never had any firearm self defense training and are trying to Monday mouthing QB situation that has touched you emotionally.

Recommend you read Brancas opinion on the matter.

Maybe firearms training needs to include more threat identification and analysis.

torrid said:

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Maybe firearms training needs to include more threat identification and analysis.

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Maybe it does. And when someone tries to enter your house uninvited in a castle state, they are viewed as a threat.

aggielostinETX said:

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torrid said:

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Maybe firearms training needs to include more threat identification and analysis.

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Maybe it does. And when someone tries to enter your house uninvited in a castle state, they are viewed as a threat.

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So you didnt like how I used the term "execution style" but you sure do seem to know for a fact that the kid tried to enter the house, instead of just knocking on the door. How do you know so much more than everyone else?

aggielostinETX said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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After being shot the first time, he fell and was shot again.

Regardless of how you feel about my terminology, answer the question.

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If he felt a threat still existed, I have no issues with it. You continue to engage a threat until the threat is eliminated. It doesn't matter if that threat is a 16 year old kid.

What I do see from you questioning is you have never had any firearm self defense training and are trying to Monday mouthing QB situation that has touched you emotionally.

Recommend you read Brancas opinion on the matter.

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I'm not "touched emotionally." I'm angry. Angry that this monster tried to murder a kid, and angry that he and so many others think deadly force is almost always justified.

There's so much I want to say right now but 100% chance I'll get banned if I say it. I'll just say you are being incredibly hard on the kid for making a clear honest mistake. You also come off as very trigger happy... the person with the gun gets every benefit of the doubt, and the victim is presumed to be the bad guy.

There's no legal justification whatsoever for the second shot. It was attempted murder.

The shooter will get his day in court so he can present his defenses and say he felt threatened. And I think he has a major uphill battle in proving that his beliefs were reasonable given the circumstances. There were so many ways he could have deescalated or warned the kid before trying to end his life. And he did not do any of them. Just went straight for the kill.

Sick world we live in.