747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

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Political because this pope is political.

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Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

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Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

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Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

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I am well aware of that and his failure to produce any evidence along with his cowardice to show up and be a martyr has pretty much shattered any respect I had for him. So I am definitely one who rolls his eyes at his name

jrico2727 said:

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747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

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Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

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Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

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Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

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I am well aware of that and his failure to produce any evidence along with his cowardice to show up and be a martyr has pretty much shattered any respect I had for him. So I am definitely one who rolls his eyes at his name

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The eye rolling began in traditional circles prior to Traditiones Custodes.. e g. when he cast his lot for Trump as a sort of katechon.

UTExan said:

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I am not bashing anybody. The politics of this played out independently of me.

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Seems dubious

Claims Pope is political so this belongs on politics board, then posts story about an internal church matter that has nothing to do with American or international politics.

I guess if you gave a arsonist gas but no matches you would be equally independent of their actions

Meh. Guys publicly attacks his boss and the organization he works for. Guy gets fired.

747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

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Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

---

Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

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Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

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So this Bishop makes wild claims without evidence and defaults in Court? He's the Catholic Alex Jones.

FrankK said:

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He wasn't fired. He was excommunicated. There's a HUGE difference. If you don't understand what excommunication means, then please reserve commenting.

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I get it. But it's not like he was told he can't be a Christian anymore. Nobody can take that away from him. He just can't practice it a particular way- a way it sounds like he wasn't all too enthused about anyway.

Sounds like he needs to create his own new Reformed Catholic Church that rejects NeoBolshevik Catholicism and returns to the true teachings

He could call it Opus Dei.

Sola Scriptura

So the worst modern pope ever excommunicates this guy, but not Biden or Pelosi.

Faustus said:

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747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

---

Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

---

Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

---

Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

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So this Bishop makes wild claims without evidence and defaults in Court? He's the Catholic Alex Jones.

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so… correct 85% of the time with his seemingly wild statements?

PabloSerna said:

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He actually did this himself by refusing to submit to the authority of the Pope and rejecting much of the teachings of Vatican II. It just finally caught up to him because as you will see, his view on both have influenced many of the faithful. He had his day in court.

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The RCC has a great record of killing its most righteous members who oppose the Pope and then canonizing them later.

Either the leaders are evil and it's only after the evil leaders the righteous opposed are dead that their righteous works can be recognized.

Or.........

Wait. No. That's gotta be it.

There are quite a few Mafia bosses that could fall in that category. It's not about sin. It is about schism.

747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

---

Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

---

Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

---

Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

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Well he is the official leader of the largest child diddling cover up organization to have known to ever exist.

Soooooo it's not a huge stretch to go from point A to to Point B.

I don't know a whole lot about this case or how crazy Vugano is other than he has basically claimed that the church is exactly what it has become- a place that harbors and protects pedos.

Sooooo to excommunicate someone who is calling you a pedo to discredit him actually lends credence to his claims.

Is that what you think he was excommunicated for- calling the Pope a pedo? It was for schism.

I want to like the Roman Catholic Church, but just can't put myself under a pope - especially one like this. Protestant churches are all weak in comparison, but their weakness is also a strength: the believer's ability to seek an alternative when leadership is unworthy.

The Pope is the mother of harlots.

I've heard tell he eats meat on Fridays.

If the bishop was excommunicated from the catholic institution for schism...then consistency would demand the one who holds the title of "holy father" (blasphemy) also excommunicate The Bible as well.

There are:
1,189 Chapters
31,102 verses

Which speak against "the man of sin".

Doesn't it mean if you are excommunicated you go straight to hell if you don't repent?

Bellards Boys said:

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If the bishop was excommunicated from the catholic institution for schism...then consistency would demand the one who holds the title of "holy father" (blasphemy) also excommunicate The Bible as well.

There are:
1,189 Chapters
31,102 verses

Which speak against "the man of sin".

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No more Eucharist for the Bible!

Aggie97 said:

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Doesn't it mean if you are excommunicated you go straight to hell if you don't repent?

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The church doesn't get to call that shot. I think he's denied the consumption of Christ's body, drinking Christ's blood, and this counts as an F on his Church participation grade.

There may be other temporal penalties, but he's still Christian.

PabloSerna said:

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Is that what you think he was excommunicated for- calling the Pope a pedo? It was for schism.

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So refusing to submit to a socialist pope's false authority?

Question- the RCC admits openly that there have been multiple false popes over the years.

That means the pope is fallible and sometimes outright working against the church body which also means the method of choosing the pope is fallible.

So why would refusing to recognize the authority of someone you believe has strayed from the church considered an offense deserving of excommunication? And thus Hell if they don't reconcile?

Maybe I am misunderstanding?

My biggest point- you cannot have an organization with as long a documented history of outright evil which has been done at the direction of the pope and believe the pope receives ultimate authority and direction from God.

Which means that either the onus is on members to determine what direction is good and what direction is bad. Which pope's speak for God and which don't.

Or the church is at its very core not of God because how can that much evil come from source that is supposed to be directed by someone who speaks for God.

Or God himself is evil.

Joan of arc among other things was considered a schismatic although this was draped in alot of other accusations as window dressing.

The history of the RCC is rife with examples of the pope weilding excommunication like a cudgel to force people to submit to his political authority.

It's one of my biggest issues with the validity of the RCC

747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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747Ag said:

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747Ag said:

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jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

---

Since you post on the R&P forum if you were seeking an actual discussion you would have posted there. Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

1 Vigano is guilty and he admitted as much in his statement given to the proceeding.

2 Vigano refused to show up and defend himself. He has arguments appear to have merit, but saints usually don't avoid court proceedings even if they are rigged or the charges false, they like Our Lord they will face power with truth

3. They are trying to use Vigano as a false flag and make him the pseudo leader of traditional Catholics, which he is not, there are many varying degrees of opinion of him. However now, we all be labeled as his disciples by those who pursue a modern faith and have to vilify the traditional one in the process.

---

Regarding #2, he stated that he wore this accusation as a badge of honor.

Regarding #3, I know more people in traditional circles that roll their eyes at Vigano these days than not.

---

Also, Vigano failed to bring evidence when he recently accused the Pope of pederasty or covering for pederasty.

---

I am well aware of that and his failure to produce any evidence along with his cowardice to show up and be a martyr has pretty much shattered any respect I had for him. So I am definitely one who rolls his eyes at his name

---

The eye rolling began in traditional circles prior to Traditiones Custodes.. e g. when he cast his lot for Trump as a sort of katechon.

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Katechon, Katekhismos (catechism), it's all Greek to me.

jrico2727 said:

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UTExan said:

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I am not bashing anybody. The politics of this played out independently of me.

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Seems dubious

Claims Pope is political so this belongs on politics board, then posts story about an internal church matter that has nothing to do with American or international politics.

I guess if you gave a arsonist gas but no matches you would be equally independent of their actions

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Vigano and the Pope are both political actors because they use the imprimatur of faith to justify their political positions. HTH.
And why are you so sensitive about bringing this to the Politics board? I've yet to figure that one out.

He said it was because

Quote:

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Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

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I wouldn't have believed it either, but it appears most on the politics board are sympathetic to our alt right Bishop rather than the Holy See and would prefer to see divine authority used to vanquish domestic political foes.

Faustus said:

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He said it was because

Quote:

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Posting here only leads to Pope and Catholic bashing so congrats on achieving that.

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I wouldn't have believed it either, but it appears most on the politics board are sympathetic to our alt right Bishop rather than the Holy See and would prefer to see divine authority used to vanquish domestic political foes.

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Thank you for both answering for me and doing a fairly good job of exemplifying my point with some of your prior posts.

My pleasure.

Although I think my snark is pretty tame compared to most of the vitriol leveled at the Pope and the Church in the thread. I like the Pope, learned a new word (katechon), and googled what excommunication actually meant in this context. Previously I was under the misconception that it meant damnation for the branded too.

It's been a fun thread.

Street Fighter said:

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UTExan said:

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/05/vigano-excommunicated-schism-pope-francis/

" ROME The Vatican on Friday excommunicated Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigan, exacting a severe punishment on the most vociferous internal critic of Pope Francis for refusing to recognize the authority of the pope and liberal reforms made by the Roman Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
Such drastic steps are exceedingly rare in the church and illustrated the extent to which Vigan the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States is perceived to have crossed a line. He has called on the pope to resign and excoriated him in harsh terms, including calling him "a servant of Satan."
Vigan's punishment suggests that Francis, who has faced conservative criticism since early in his papacy, may be losing patience with his sharpest critics in the church hierarchy who have challenged his papal authority in sometimes shocking and irreverent terms. It is also an indication of how Vigan has morphed over the years from a being a critic of the pope and the church's shortcomings on dealing with clerical abuse into a fringe conservative firebrand…"

///
Political because this pope is political.

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The pope is a communist and is probably stuffing his own little boys.

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fify

I don't know dick about the inner workings and bureacracy of Catholicism. However, if a Catholic Priest is being excommunicated because of the following then I'm interested in knowing what that is. It would have to be pretty extreme for this to be a reason for this:

Quote:

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fringe conservative firebrand…"

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Please tell me this isn't simply TDS by the Pope?

It's for schism. Refusal to kiss the ring.
If he was on the Apprentice it would be "You're fired" rather than excommunicated. He also said Pope Francis' elevation to the throne was null and void.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/258195/vatican-excommunicates-vigano-for-schism

Quote:

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. . . Vigano was found guilty of the canonical crime, or delict, of schism, or the refusal to submit to the pope or the communion of the Church, at the conclusion of the Vatican's extrajudicial penal process on July 4.

The Vatican's doctrine office announced the "latae sententiae" excommunication (automatic excommunication) on July 5, citing Vigano's "public statements manifesting his refusal to recognize and submit to the Supreme Pontiff, his rejection of communion with the members of the Church subject to him, and of the legitimacy and magisterial authority of the Second Vatican Council."
. . .
He also said he has "no reason to consider myself separate from communion with the holy Church and with the papacy, which I have always served with filial devotion and fidelity."

I maintain that the errors and heresies to which [Francis] adhered before, during, and after his election, along with the intention he held in his apparent acceptance of the papacy, render his elevation to the throne null and void," Vigano wrote. . . .

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He also apparently called the Pope a servant of Satan, which is frowned upon by upper management.

Quote:

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. . . Vigano also branded the Pope a "false prophet" and a "servant of Satan", before calling for him to resign.
. . .
It said his previous comments made it clear he refused "to recognise and submit" to the head of the Roman Catholic Church. . . .

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https://uk.news.yahoo.com/vatican-banishes-archbishop-branded-pope-190300686.html

Vigan should simply accept the invitation and leave for a more welcoming Christian climate.

At the end of our run, we are all like the criminal on the cross next to Jesus asking Him to remember him when inheriting the Kingdom. Our faith is all it takes to dine with The Christ in Paradise.

Funny I haven't seen a parallel thread on this over on the R&P forum. I do notice they are still talking about pride month.

So we have something ironic going on here. Forum 16 talking religion. R&P working a thread on the pride festivities.

I wouldn't have put money on that taking place. But here we are.

Faustus said:

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He could call it Opus Dei.

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Nice!