AgBQ-00 said:

---

my next fun car will probably be a 21 mach 1. you can find low mileage cars in the 30s

---

This is the way to get a nice Mustang. Few years ago I wanted to replace my M3 convertible with an American V8. Decided on a new GT convertible but was shocked at the price. Then I discovered that older low mileage Shelbys were substantially cheaper. Found a garage queen Shelby GT500 convertible with 8000 miles on it for at least 10k less than a new GT. Bonus that only 1800 were built so it has appreciated were as the GT would have depreciated.

Ford takes a massive $19.5 billion write-down on EV's (yes, again) and converts one of their EV plants to do other things. I think it's safe to say it's wise to stay away from Ford EV's. No confirmation of plans to kill off the lightning yet, though.

NEWS: Ford has announced it expects to take a massive $19.5 billion write-down related to its EV investments.

The sum is among the largest impairments ever taken by a company. Ford, which has lost $13B on its EV business since 2023, said it would bolster its lineup of… pic.twitter.com/mWE3YRrDs7

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) December 15, 2025

NEWS: Ford intends to convert a Kentucky electric vehicle battery plant so it can produce cells for energy storage to power the electric grid, as its EV sales growth has dropped. https://t.co/PsALfkawJO

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) December 15, 2025

Everything about the lightning is…..meh

It's not that people aren't interested in an EV truck, it's that the offering is so bad.

Ugly front end that hasn't changed since intro
Bad mileage, especially when towing
Meh Hp/Torque

Ford has some of the worst battery tech.

As an old guy I knew who used to be in the oil business would say when they failed...

"At least we know where not to drill"

This class of vehicle sells better when it looks weird/ugly/unique and doesnt when made to look normal. Trying to make a more "normal" one is a failure of an idea. The smartest thing Musk did with cybertrucks was make them look way out there

I just got the new Tesla Model 3 Performance. I also have a Nissan Titan Turbo Diesel truck. Love both.

I wouldn't get an electric truck if you actually did a lot of truck things. If you 95% commute and 5% do truck things, then maybe electric is ok. Othewise no.

I am shocked at how much I love the Tesla. Best car I've ever owned. I don't think I will ever buy an ICE car for my daily driver ever again.

I drove a Silverado for 10 years, then an F-150 for 9 years. I've now had a Rivian truck for almost 2 years.

Things I like about it:

• super fast 0-60 mph in 3 sec
• super quiet - can sneak up on wildlife at my ranch
• air suspension has almost 15" ground clearance in off-road mode vs only 9" in an F-150
• storage - a front trunk (frunk), a "gear tunnel", and a powered tonneau cover has way more storage than F-150. the gear tunnel can hold a golf bag and shoes as well as few rifle bags and ammo cases.
• built in air compressor, multiple 120v plugs, etc. are very useful for tools and jobs around the house and the ranch
• cost to operate- zero oil changes or fluid flushes or other regular PMs. really only need tire rotations, but do have to replace tires more frequently. fuel - home electricity to charge at home on my previous plan = $0.13/kWh and it gets about 2.5-3+ miles/kWh vs gas at over $3/gal and an F-150 getting about 15 miles/gal - back of the napkin math is around 6 cents per mile in the Rivian vs around 26 cents per mile in F-150. however, i now have an "EV" electricity plan, so as long as I charge my truck between 11p and 5a (which is programmable- i don't have to plug and unplug at those times), it's free for me to charge home vs buying gasoline.

Things I don't (or won't) like about it:

• it actually tows like a dream. rated for 11k lbs. i don't have a camper or boat, don't tow often, but I have towed a 16' utility trailer a few times and a U-haul trailer once and while it towed and handled easily, the range was greatly impacted so i wouldn't want to tow something a very long distance.
• i have the middle battery size for Rivian (standard, large, and max - i have "large"). it will get over 300 miles range on a full charge, which is not that much fewer miles than many tanks of gas, but if i have to take the rivian on a long road trip, public charging infrastructure still sucks and has a long way to go. good news is all Buc-ees have Tesla DC fast/super chargers, so if I go from houston to dallas or san antonio, i just stop at buc-ees for 30-40 mins now instead of the usual 15-20 minutes.
• re-sale will suck. the warranty on EV batteries is typically 8 years 100k miles.. if I drive my rivian for 6+ years, i doubt I'll get much back on a trade-in down the road because it will have 0, 1 or 2 years left on the battery warranty. i paid cash for my truck and will just drive it as long as I still enjoy it, but resale value is something to keep in mind when weighing against how much cheaper it is operate.
• Rivian does not yet have a V2H charging option like Tesla does with Cybertrucks. with a huge 130+ kWh battery, if there's another hurricane Berryl and I don't have power for over a week at home, it would be nice to be able to plug into my house and power many of my circuits (all but HVAC and pool equip probably) for days or a week. This is supposed to be coming, but not available from Rivian yet.

Now, i'm against govt manipulation of the market like California is doing with mandates for electrification of fleets or like Biden admin was doing with rebates and grants. I don't think i'm saving the planet. even if my vehicle has little air or noise pollution itself, i know how power is generated and i know how the world's farming/harvesting, mining, transporting, processing, manufacturing, and distributing is still going to be run on diesel for a long time.

but i do think there's a market for electric trucks.

nortex97 said:

---

Ford takes a massive $19.5 billion write-down on EV's (yes, again) and converts one of their EV plants to do other things. I think it's safe to say it's wise to stay away from Ford EV's. No confirmation of plans to kill off the lightning yet, though.

---

FIFY.

aggiehawg said:

---

IIIHorn said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

double b said:

---

Without the EV rebates, this project was mostly dead. Ford should consider reinvesting in Rivian since they have a proven model.

---

They do? I spent a lot of time watching Rivian owner videos and they had a lot of problems with them. A fender bender caused much more damage and down for repair time, since not just anybody could do that bodywork.

---

Is the bodywork done without charge?

---

Well, they had to pay for the tow to get it to the repair shop which was over 100 miles away, one way. Took nearly a month to get it back. So maybe their auto insurance covered the tow and a rental vehicle?

IDK for sure.

---

I apologize aggiehawg.


It was a revolting pun and you responded eloquently, as per usual.

You are a patient and great lady.

I have to wonder how much shareholder value has been pissed away as a result of decisions made by Bill Ford and Jim Farley. And yet, they are still there.

JJxvi said:

---

This class of vehicle sells better when it looks weird/ugly/unique and doesnt when made to look normal. Trying to make a more "normal" one is a failure of an idea. The smartest thing Musk did with cybertrucks was make them look way out there

---

Ya that's why it's selling so well.

$20B?! Holy hell.

And this comment is amazing and the left won't care. They will demand they get made anyway when they get back in office.

Quote:

---

"Instead of plowing billions into the future knowing these large EVs will never make money, we are pivoting," Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley said in an interview.

---

YouBet said:

---

$20B?! Holy hell.

And this comment is amazing and the left won't care. They will demand they get made anyway when they get back in office.

Quote:

---

"Instead of plowing billions into the future knowing these large EVs will never make money, we are pivoting," Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley said in an interview.

---

---

What I said years ago in a long running thread.

aggiehawg said:

---

YouBet said:

---

$20B?! Holy hell.

And this comment is amazing and the left won't care. They will demand they get made anyway when they get back in office.

Quote:

---

"Instead of plowing billions into the future knowing these large EVs will never make money, we are pivoting," Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley said in an interview.

---

---

What I said years ago in a long running thread.

---

Except that Tesla is still going strong and others other than Ford are gaining EV market share

I wish they would have dumped one tenth of the budget for this into the mini-powerstroke. The fuel savings is about break even when you factor in the cost difference of diesel vs gas. With more investment, they could probably get it to be more efficient and maintain the power.

I have had one since 2018 and have absolutely loved it. I wish they still made it and put it into Expeditions so I could get one for my bride.

Teslag said:

---

EV trucks just don't make a lot of sense if you need a truck to do truck things

---

But they're probably adequate for suburban desk jockeys who buy trucks just to cosplay as blue-collars.

Ford announced the start of the F150 lightning in 2019 and has announced $13B in operational losses and is now taking a $19B charge to their research and investments.

With ~900k ICE F150s sold in that time, that equates to ~$35k in subsidies per vehicle from the ICE F150 line.

aggiehawg said:

---

double b said:

---

Without the EV rebates, this project was mostly dead. Ford should consider reinvesting in Rivian since they have a proven model.

---

They do? I spent a lot of time watching Rivian owner videos and they had a lot of problems with them. A fender bender caused much more damage and down for repair time, since not just anybody could do that bodywork.

---

Rivian has a solid platform that's being adopted widely and is likely here to stay. Amazon has been rolling out Rivian delivery vehicles, they are precisely the most useful use case for EVs. They will hopefully abandon the massive panels that render most bodywork cost prohibitive because it is absurdly expensive to replace them, hopefully that trend dies out soon. You're absolutely right though, the bodywork costs for Rivians are absurd, and its a big issue for them long term

https://rivian.com/fleet

The other side of that coin is that Ford would need to find a way to include Rivian vehicles in their CAFE calculations. CAFE standards have become a cancer, and companies are having to put out trash vehicles, underpowered, with bad features like auto stop/start that nobody likes, just to stay compliant, because they make good trucks that people want, and that hurts their average.

Can they bring back the stick?

lb3 said:

---

Ford announced the start of the F150 lightning in 2019 and has announced $13B in operational losses and is now taking a $19B charge to their research and investments.

With ~900k ICE F150s sold in that time, that equates to ~$35k in subsidies per vehicle from the ICE F150 line.

---

Well, some of that also was from debt/bond issuance etc., but yes to the underlying business. I think they aren't scrapping the Lightning entirely, but adding a 'gas generator' version that essentially uses a (small) gas engine to recharge the batteries to go over 700 miles if/as wanted now. It's still a big change of plans but this will continue to use the tooling/line building the Lightning apparently, and I think likely better matches actual consumer interest. Probably loses a lot of frunk space though. I wonder if they will cut back on battery size at all to cut down on weight growth.

Quote:

---

Ford CEO Jim Farley on why the company is cancelling the all-electric F-150 Lightning:

"The $50k, $60k, $70k EVs just weren't selling; We're following customers to where the market is. We're going to build up our whole lineup of hyrbids. It's gonna be better for the company's profitability, shareholders and a lot of new American jobs. These really expensive $70k electric trucks, as much as I love the product, they didn't make sense. But an EREV that goes 700 miles on a tank of gas, for 90% of the time is all-electric, that EREV is a better solution for a Lightning than the current all-electric Lightning."

An EREV is what Ford calls an "extended range electric vehicle," which adds a "gas generator that can recharge the battery pack to power the motors."

---

Ford CEO Jim Farley on why the company is cancelling the all-electric F-150 Lightning:

"The $50k, $60k, $70k EVs just weren't selling; We're following customers to where the market is. We're going to build up our whole lineup of hyrbids. It's gonna be better for the company's… pic.twitter.com/aZba5GPgKs

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) December 16, 2025

Also, though the new plan still sounds insane, Europe is pulling back from the ICE ban they had set up to go into effect.

NEWS: The EU is abandoning its combustion engine ban after 9 months of pressure from legacy automakers.

Under the new proposal, tailpipe emissions will have to be reduced by 90% by 2035 compared with the current goal of a 100% reduction. The commission will set a condition that… pic.twitter.com/G8tjdAweTc

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) December 16, 2025

One more piece of the green energy flim flam continues to fall.

What about a Honda with Accord?

$13 B in losses, Farley should be ****canned!

WTH is "green steel"?

HollywoodBQ said:

---

AgBQ-00 said:

---

a decently equipped GT is over 50K. It is ridiculous they took the "everyman" muscle car and made it so expensive it is out of reach for so many who would be in the market for one.

---

Bro, I feel the same way about my $60,000 Jeep Wrangler that's been my daily driver for the past 5 years. How does a freaking Jeep cost that much?

What's always cracked me up on Mustangs is that you can get a vanilla entry level one and then spend 2x as much on an optioned up GT.

---

A Jeep costs that much because people like you are willing to pay it. Once people decide these ridiculous prices are ridiculous and stop buying, the prices will plummet.

So I wonder if this means Ford will bring back actual cars now. They previously killed all cars except for the Mustang.

Maybe they will bring back the Taurus SHO with a V8 hybrid that gets like 600 HP. Let's do this.

So Ford pulled the plug?

YouBet said:

---

WTH is "green steel"?

---

Too lazy to look it up, I assume it's steel that is refined using 'green energy' or whatever means no unicorns were harmed to the EUrocrats.

JJxvi said:

---

This class of vehicle sells better when it looks weird/ugly/unique and doesnt when made to look normal. Trying to make a more "normal" one is a failure of an idea. The smartest thing Musk did with cybertrucks was make them look way out there

---

What Musk did was a clean sheet design, same with Rivian.
What every other car/truck maker did was take one of their production line cars or trucks, pluck the gasoline engine and drive train out, and drop in a battery pack. The people that will buy an EV don't want the "EV version" of what they already have.

Recall, Ford was partnered with Rivian in the beginning, got impatient, and dropped out.

I think the Rivian is pretty cool. It's one of the few EVs I like. However, I still wouldn't buy one and try to do anything off-road with it for any length of time after reading a few real-life articles from people who tried it.

Yellerjacket said:

---

HollywoodBQ said:

---

AgBQ-00 said:

---

a decently equipped GT is over 50K. It is ridiculous they took the "everyman" muscle car and made it so expensive it is out of reach for so many who would be in the market for one.

---

Bro, I feel the same way about my $60,000 Jeep Wrangler that's been my daily driver for the past 5 years. How does a freaking Jeep cost that much?

What's always cracked me up on Mustangs is that you can get a vanilla entry level one and then spend 2x as much on an optioned up GT.

---

A Jeep costs that much because people like you are willing to pay it. Once people decide these ridiculous prices are ridiculous and stop buying, the prices will plummet.

---

I'm doing my part!

YouBet said:

---

WTH is "green steel"?

---

It is used to make Beamers.

Yellerjacket said:

---

HollywoodBQ said:

---

AgBQ-00 said:

---

a decently equipped GT is over 50K. It is ridiculous they took the "everyman" muscle car and made it so expensive it is out of reach for so many who would be in the market for one.

---

Bro, I feel the same way about my $60,000 Jeep Wrangler that's been my daily driver for the past 5 years. How does a freaking Jeep cost that much?

What's always cracked me up on Mustangs is that you can get a vanilla entry level one and then spend 2x as much on an optioned up GT.

---

A Jeep costs that much because people like you are willing to pay it. Once people decide these ridiculous prices are ridiculous and stop buying, the prices will plummet.

---

Manufacturers push the higher option models because the margins are SIGNIFICANTLY better on those. They make just enough of the entry level no frills units for them to be somewhat available, but then they rely on their sales people to get you into the far more expensive unit; long payment terms, keeping up with the "Jones", etc...

Sure there's simple vanity involved with every purchaser that wants the heated or cooled seats because, well suddenly you apparently cannot exist in *insert your city or region here* without them. But there's a deeper need for those higher margins and it's not corporate greed or a desire for a higher stock price. They have got to recover the cost of a literal army of engineers that were chasing impossible CAFE standards and, like the subject of this thread, the impossible EV mandates that were coming from government incompetence.

IIIHorn said:

---

YouBet said:

---

WTH is "green steel"?

---

It is used to make Beamers.

---

You need to stop with this.

YouBet said:

---

I think the Rivian is pretty cool. It's one of the few EVs I like. However, I still wouldn't buy one and try to do anything off-road with it for any length of time after reading a few real-life articles from people who tried it.

---

My brother bought one in 2022 to basically fit in with his neighbors in a snotty white lib Seattle suburb (Mercer Island). Two years later he picked me up at SeaTac is his new 911 Carerra S. I made a couple of jokes about "what happened to the Rivian?" and "do your farts no longer smell good?" He told me to STFU and enjoy the ride.