Why did the southern states think the U.S. could legally end slavery?

12,355 Views | 230 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by BBRex
flown-the-coop
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BQ78 said:

That was written almost 15 months into a war.

The implication then is if you want to split up you better win it in blood or hope you can negotiate a split with the former lord, who is willing for you to go.

The south chose the former in 1861 by attacking Federal property. They lost destroying their economy for the next century. Guess you'll need better luck next time or hope for a negotiated settlement.

Good with that. Hopefully the national divorce goes through this next time. Red-blooded Americans will be better armed against the coastal elitists and their plantation armies of welfare recipients.

Just glad we can agree that the South had a right to fight for their independence to ensure their own pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
BQ78
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It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.
doubledog
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Zobel said:

It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote at all

" It's stupid to say the civil war was about slavery, because it was about a deeper divide between cultures and ideas about governance and federalism"

Your right, I stopped reading after this statement.
2040huck
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BusterAg said:

reineraggie09 said:

pinche gringo said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

The 13th amendment barely passed the House without the southern states. If they were still in the union, it would never have been close. Much less ratification. Just stay in the U.S. and vote against it.

If, by some means, they do ban slavery, then secede. Doing it early took away their voting power.

Also, if the position of the U.S. was that secession was illegal, why weren't the southern states given a vote in the 13th amendment?


Maybe because it really wasn't all about slavery…


Underneath the Lincoln Memorial is a gift shop/restroom. On the wall is a speech from Lincoln. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." It wasn't about Slavery.

To Lincoln, saving the unity of the Republic was more important than the issue of slavery. That is not in question.

But, the motivations of the Southern States to succeed had everything to do about slavery. The South wanted to succeed because of slavery. Lincoln wanted to preserve the republic, regardless of why the South wanted to succeed.

Saying the war had nothing to do with slavery is incorrect.

This. For the south, it was almost entirely the slavery issue
Jack Boyette
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BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.


It's absolutely hilarious that you actually believe this. I assume you also think that every individual and state should be held hostage by what they view as a tyrant ruler until and unless they're willing to die fighting. That's not what our founding fathers believed m; rather, it's what they were forced to do because…they lived under a tyrant ruler.

Your arguments and reasoning are terrible. Basically, you think we should decide whether people should be entrapped based upon how "inconvenient" it might be to separate, as well as look through the lens of time in hindsight in order to determine if "we'd be better off or not."

That is so stupid.
Jack Boyette
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2040huck said:

BusterAg said:

reineraggie09 said:

pinche gringo said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

The 13th amendment barely passed the House without the southern states. If they were still in the union, it would never have been close. Much less ratification. Just stay in the U.S. and vote against it.

If, by some means, they do ban slavery, then secede. Doing it early took away their voting power.

Also, if the position of the U.S. was that secession was illegal, why weren't the southern states given a vote in the 13th amendment?


Maybe because it really wasn't all about slavery…


Underneath the Lincoln Memorial is a gift shop/restroom. On the wall is a speech from Lincoln. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." It wasn't about Slavery.

To Lincoln, saving the unity of the Republic was more important than the issue of slavery. That is not in question.

But, the motivations of the Southern States to succeed had everything to do about slavery. The South wanted to succeed because of slavery. Lincoln wanted to preserve the republic, regardless of why the South wanted to succeed.

Saying the war had nothing to do with slavery is incorrect.

This. For the south, it was almost entirely the slavery issue


No it wasn't, and that's already been explained.

But answer this: what was it about for the North? Do you actually think it was because one man had some benevolent agenda to "preserve the Union" so he was willing to let half a million people die?

The only people that believe it was all about slavery for the South, and additionally, all about "preserving the Union" for the North, are the people gullible enough to vote for Democrats today. The go hand in hand.
flown-the-coop
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BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.

It's literally the most basic of rights held by the founders of our nation. The right to determines one's destiny. I mean the southerners held conventions and elections to vote to secede.

The governed voted collectively for new government. Lincoln and the North disrespected that. Putin is essentially a modern day Lincoln based on your concept of what rights the South had.

It's funny, when you get down to the bones it really was about states rights against northern aggression. Slavery was an underlying part of it. Race was not. That concept is made up out of thin air.
Jack Boyette
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doubledog said:

Zobel said:

It's almost like you didn't read what I wrote at all

" It's stupid to say the civil war was about slavery, because it was about a deeper divide between cultures and ideas about governance and federalism"

Your right, I stopped reading after this statement.


That's because you have no idea what you're talking about.
BQ78
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Determine your destiny by trampling the destinies of others, got it.
Jack Boyette
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BQ78 said:

Determine your destiny by trampling the destinies of others, got it.



Listen to this guy.

He would have been against the f'n American Revolution.
BQ78
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So explain the process for secession, you just declare it and the rest of the nation must support you even if it severely impacts their ability to live up to treaties and trade deals?

It's even more hilarious you think they just declare the right and everyone just moves on happily.
BQ78
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Quite a leap there. American Revolutionaries were not 100% righteous. Some of their tactics are still seen on the streets of Minneapolis today. Guess I should assume you support Walz and that state's self determination to kick ICE out of their state.

Parliament indifference to their grievances and 18th century speed of communication were the issues that led to revolution that needed to be earned
flown-the-coop
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BQ78 said:

Determine your destiny by trampling the destinies of others, got it.

That is what the North was doing. So the South voted to separate. How are you not following?

Same way we broke from the Brits. Same way Ukraine wants to be now.

It was Lincoln and the North acting like Putin saying "oh no you dintit"and slaughtering the people and confiscating their property.

You probably never looked at it because as someone said, the victors write the history.
Jack Boyette
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BQ78 said:

Quite a leap there. American Revolutionaries were not 100% righteous. Some of their tactics are still seen on the streets of Minneapolis today. Guess I should assume you support Walz and that state's self determination to kick ICE out of their state.

Parliament indifference to their grievances and 18th century speed of communication were the issues that led to revolution that needed to be earned


It's not a leap. You clearly stated it. Your attempt rebuttal is nothing but a false equivalence.

Let me spell it out for you so you're clear: I believe the states joined the Union and granted a limited federal government limited powers to act for their collective good. I believe those states reserved the right to leave should they believe the arrangement was no longer working for them, because that's what the founding fathers believed when they formed the country. That means that southern states….even if it was "inconvenient" to others (read: the North would have to get their agricultural elsewhere), and even if 160 years later people may conclude that one country would be more powerful than 2…..still had the right to leave because they never, ever gave up their sovereignty in any capacity outside of the limited grant of powers they originally gave the federal government when they signed the Constitution/were admitted to the Union.
flown-the-coop
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BQ78 said:

So explain the process for secession, you just declare it and the rest of the nation must support you even if it severely impacts their ability to live up to treaties and trade deals?

It's even more hilarious you think they just declare the right and everyone just moves on happily.

If you cannot secede, then you are a slave to that government. Yes, if you determine you want to govern yourself differently, you get enough people together and you try it peacefully, then you get on to the fighting.

How does one have freedom if they must always remain a subject to the government?
flown-the-coop
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Preach.
nomad2007
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flown-the-coop said:

BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.

It's literally the most basic of rights held by the founders of our nation. The right to determines one's destiny. I mean the southerners held conventions and elections to vote to secede.

The governed voted collectively for new government. Lincoln and the North disrespected that. Putin is essentially a modern day Lincoln based on your concept of what rights the South had.

It's funny, when you get down to the bones it really was about states rights against northern aggression. Slavery was an underlying part of it. Race was not. That concept is made up out of thin air.


You never study the war? Alexander Stephen's' cornerstone speech:

Quote:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.".


It was not "made up out of thin air" that it was about race. They just outright said it was.




Jack Boyette
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nomad2007 said:

flown-the-coop said:

BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.

It's literally the most basic of rights held by the founders of our nation. The right to determines one's destiny. I mean the southerners held conventions and elections to vote to secede.

The governed voted collectively for new government. Lincoln and the North disrespected that. Putin is essentially a modern day Lincoln based on your concept of what rights the South had.

It's funny, when you get down to the bones it really was about states rights against northern aggression. Slavery was an underlying part of it. Race was not. That concept is made up out of thin air.


You never study the war? Alexander Stephen's' cornerstone speech:

Quote:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.".


It was not "made up out of thin air" that it was about race. They just outright said it was.







People already said it was "an issue." The economy depended on it. The issue that nobody ever mentions is that the North didn't rely on "slave labor" in its purest senses because it had Ellis Island to bring in Irish, Chinese, and other poor immigrants that they could pay barely anything and treat like absolute **** and pretend they didn't have slaves too. They did. That's why all the major labor cases in the late 19th and early 20th centuries dealt with workers fighting for humane living conditions in the benevolent, altruistic, caring North.
Kozmozag
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Lincoln caused the deaths of 750,000 to a million. He should have just negotiated a break up. Let the south go there own way. The victors write the history.
flown-the-coop
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To pay homage to a great movie…

"Now close your eyes and imagine if those poor southern slaves were white, would we still have fought the civil war?"

Then get back to me on whether the war was about race.
flown-the-coop
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I will say this about slavery in America that is unique vs rest of the world and the history of time… it's the only instance where the descendants of freed slaves have been afforded so much particular in the last 60 years, yet still pretend they were the ever only enslaved people in the history of the human race.

Would like to see a lot more folks learn history and then learn to move the F on about reparations and oppression and Jim Crowe 8.0.

And it's mainly white liberal women and limp wristed men that continue to egg this **** on.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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flown-the-coop said:

I will say this about slavery in America that is unique vs rest of the world and the history of time… it's the only instance where the descendants of freed slaves have been afforded so much particular in the last 60 years, yet still pretend they were the ever only enslaved people in the history of the human race.

Would like to see a lot more folks learn history and then learn to move the F on about reparations and oppression and Jim Crowe 8.0.

And it's mainly white liberal women and limp wristed men that continue to egg this **** on.


You've been holding that one in for a long time. Feel better?
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
2040huck
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Jack Boyette said:

2040huck said:

BusterAg said:

reineraggie09 said:

pinche gringo said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

The 13th amendment barely passed the House without the southern states. If they were still in the union, it would never have been close. Much less ratification. Just stay in the U.S. and vote against it.

If, by some means, they do ban slavery, then secede. Doing it early took away their voting power.

Also, if the position of the U.S. was that secession was illegal, why weren't the southern states given a vote in the 13th amendment?


Maybe because it really wasn't all about slavery…


Underneath the Lincoln Memorial is a gift shop/restroom. On the wall is a speech from Lincoln. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." It wasn't about Slavery.

To Lincoln, saving the unity of the Republic was more important than the issue of slavery. That is not in question.

But, the motivations of the Southern States to succeed had everything to do about slavery. The South wanted to succeed because of slavery. Lincoln wanted to preserve the republic, regardless of why the South wanted to succeed.

Saying the war had nothing to do with slavery is incorrect.

This. For the south, it was almost entirely the slavery issue


No it wasn't, and that's already been explained.

But answer this: what was it about for the North? Do you actually think it was because one man had some benevolent agenda to "preserve the Union" so he was willing to let half a million people die?

The only people that believe it was all about slavery for the South, and additionally, all about "preserving the Union" for the North, are the people gullible enough to vote for Democrats today. The go hand in hand.

You can try to be condescending, but you clearly dont understand what was going on decades earlier with the Missouri compromise, and the subsequent battle over Kansas slavery.
2040huck
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Jack Boyette said:

nomad2007 said:

flown-the-coop said:

BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.

It's literally the most basic of rights held by the founders of our nation. The right to determines one's destiny. I mean the southerners held conventions and elections to vote to secede.

The governed voted collectively for new government. Lincoln and the North disrespected that. Putin is essentially a modern day Lincoln based on your concept of what rights the South had.

It's funny, when you get down to the bones it really was about states rights against northern aggression. Slavery was an underlying part of it. Race was not. That concept is made up out of thin air.


You never study the war? Alexander Stephen's' cornerstone speech:

Quote:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.".


It was not "made up out of thin air" that it was about race. They just outright said it was.







People already said it was "an issue." The economy depended on it. The issue that nobody ever mentions is that the North didn't rely on "slave labor" in its purest senses because it had Ellis Island to bring in Irish, Chinese, and other poor immigrants that they could pay barely anything and treat like absolute **** and pretend they didn't have slaves too. They did. That's why all the major labor cases in the late 19th and early 20th centuries dealt with workers fighting for humane living conditions in the benevolent, altruistic, caring North.

They were treated badly, but they did get paid a little and were free to go back home if they wanted. You cant see the difference?
Jack Boyette
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2040huck said:

Jack Boyette said:

2040huck said:

BusterAg said:

reineraggie09 said:

pinche gringo said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

The 13th amendment barely passed the House without the southern states. If they were still in the union, it would never have been close. Much less ratification. Just stay in the U.S. and vote against it.

If, by some means, they do ban slavery, then secede. Doing it early took away their voting power.

Also, if the position of the U.S. was that secession was illegal, why weren't the southern states given a vote in the 13th amendment?


Maybe because it really wasn't all about slavery…


Underneath the Lincoln Memorial is a gift shop/restroom. On the wall is a speech from Lincoln. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." It wasn't about Slavery.

To Lincoln, saving the unity of the Republic was more important than the issue of slavery. That is not in question.

But, the motivations of the Southern States to succeed had everything to do about slavery. The South wanted to succeed because of slavery. Lincoln wanted to preserve the republic, regardless of why the South wanted to succeed.

Saying the war had nothing to do with slavery is incorrect.

This. For the south, it was almost entirely the slavery issue


No it wasn't, and that's already been explained.

But answer this: what was it about for the North? Do you actually think it was because one man had some benevolent agenda to "preserve the Union" so he was willing to let half a million people die?

The only people that believe it was all about slavery for the South, and additionally, all about "preserving the Union" for the North, are the people gullible enough to vote for Democrats today. The go hand in hand.

You can try to be condescending, but you clearly dont understand what was going on decades earlier with the Missouri compromise, and the subsequent battle over Kansas slavery.


I can be condescending because I do understand, and clearly understand it a lot better than you do. You're one of the people I'm talking about, as your history clearly shows.
Jack Boyette
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2040huck said:

Jack Boyette said:

nomad2007 said:

flown-the-coop said:

BQ78 said:

It was not a right but to gain their independence, they had to fight and win just like in 1776.

It's literally the most basic of rights held by the founders of our nation. The right to determines one's destiny. I mean the southerners held conventions and elections to vote to secede.

The governed voted collectively for new government. Lincoln and the North disrespected that. Putin is essentially a modern day Lincoln based on your concept of what rights the South had.

It's funny, when you get down to the bones it really was about states rights against northern aggression. Slavery was an underlying part of it. Race was not. That concept is made up out of thin air.


You never study the war? Alexander Stephen's' cornerstone speech:

Quote:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.".


It was not "made up out of thin air" that it was about race. They just outright said it was.







People already said it was "an issue." The economy depended on it. The issue that nobody ever mentions is that the North didn't rely on "slave labor" in its purest senses because it had Ellis Island to bring in Irish, Chinese, and other poor immigrants that they could pay barely anything and treat like absolute **** and pretend they didn't have slaves too. They did. That's why all the major labor cases in the late 19th and early 20th centuries dealt with workers fighting for humane living conditions in the benevolent, altruistic, caring North.

They were treated badly, but they did get paid a little and were free to go back home if they wanted. You cant see the difference?

Free to go back home? With what $? They couldn't afford to live day to day.

Once again: please tell me WHY the North fought so hard goat letting the South leave like they wanted to? Why did the English fight so hard to prevent the colonists from leaving?

It's the same reason in both cases….and it isn't one that involves "caring about others."
BusterAg
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flown-the-coop said:

But we do not agree. Slavery in these United States was not about race, it was about economics.

This is just so blatantly false that it undermines the credibility of literally every post that you have ever made.
flown-the-coop
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Very simple question. If the slaves had been white, would the civil war have been fought.

Very very basic question.
Zobel
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This is a false dichotomy. Whatever the hypothetical, the fact is that race was the critical factor in slavery. You can't decouple them. So you similarly can't create an either / or between race and economics. They are the same issue.
BusterAg
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Jack Boyette said:

1. Slavery wasn't "evil" in the sense that had they nor their ancestors not been slaves here in America, they would have been slaves in the African countries they originally came from. As it stands, their ancestors living here today are the wealthiest black people in the history of the world. The reasons why are numerous and I'm sure upsetting to many of the leftists here who refuse to live in reality, but that's the truth.

2. Lincoln, nor people anywhere in the North cared about slaves or black people any more than leftists today pretend to care about illegals. They pretend to, and say they do, but they don't actually do anything to help them and in reality find them disgusting and don't want them anywhere near their neighborhoods. Typical NIMBY mentality.

3. Secession wasn't illegal, and isn't illegal now. The stacked, solely Northern-based court issued a decision in U.S. v. White that is one of the most poorly reasoned, laughable decisions every rendered. It would be reversed today.

4. The states only agreed to give up certain rights when joining the union in an effort to allow a more centralized federal government to handle a few things that were better vested in a unified body; otherwise, they viewed themselves as sovereign entities, free to leave if "the deal" ever stopped working for them. They tried, and they were FORCED to stay. There's absolutely zero legal basis for this. Leftists who pretend Lincoln "had no choice" after Southern troops fired on Fort Sumter are FOS. Of course he had a choice. The irony of his professed purpose of "saving democracy".....by NOT ALLOWING PEOPLE TO VOTE TO END THE RELATIONSHIP...is too thick to cut.

5. Lincoln tried to argue that the Union predated the Constitution and was a "perpetual contract." Again, there's no basis for this at all.

6. Lincoln "preserved democracy" by forcing those to stay who voted to leave, and by suspending/ignoring provisions of the Constitution that formed the basis for the very democracy he claimed to be saving. He was a hypocrite of the highest order.

I agree with you on points 2 though 6.

But point 1 is wrong.

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

This is literally the cornerstone, the foundation of our country and our way of life. And it is 100% and specifically against the idea of slavery. Slavery is, indeed, evil, and, while we should be proud of the fact that a bunch of Christian aristocrats in Virginia decided to make the individual more important than the Crown, it is also 100% appropriate to be ashamed that we lived in such hypocrisy with the regards of slavery for over a century.
BusterAg
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flown-the-coop said:

Very simple question. If the slaves had been white, would the civil war have been fought.

Very very basic question.

That's kind of like asking what kind of meat is in a hot dog. Even George Washington knows the answer to this. "Nobody knows".

What kind of a world exists where the South has white and only white slaves? You gotta shake up quite a bit to get there. The answer to your question relies on all of the assumptions that you make to invent a world where there are white slaves in the south. Because you can get there pretty much any way you want to, answering that question is just a game of mental masturbation that doesn't really have any meaning.

But, I will generally play your game.

Yes.

If all of the slaves in the south were Irish gingers instead of black people, the civil war would still have been fought, because, as our nation became more educated, and regular people that could read would read the declaration of independence and would eventually see that the institution of slavery was 100% contrary to the philosophical foundations of the country. Some states would be addicted to free ginger labor, and would revolt when they saw the institution dying. The Northern states would have zero sympathy for the Southern states, as they would feel morally superior to states that enslaved the ginger, and would take advantage of them at every opportunity to make the more philosophically sophisticated North, who still hated gingers but just didn't enslave them, more prosperous at the expense of the ginger enslaving south. This would be acceptable to the North because ginger slavery was so distasteful. This would explode into a powder keg, and civil war would have broken out.
flown-the-coop
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Zobel said:

This is a false dichotomy. Whatever the hypothetical, the fact is that race was the critical factor in slavery. You can't decouple them. So you similarly can't create an either / or between race and economics. They are the same issue.

Thanks, you just validated my argument. If you cannot segregate race from slavery (bizarre, since clearly all races have been enslaved).

Not sure what you mean about race being a critical factor in slavery. Slaves in the New World were predominantly African in origin (sub Saharan mostly) and were traded in outposts like Timbuktu to all parts of the world. BTW this happens still in places like Dubai where Indians and Pakis and others are conscripted into labor pools to build all those fancy glass towers. Is that race based slavery there?

Gets way more difficult when you get into Moses and the Egyptians and other cultures at the time who traded slaves with little regard to nationality, race, etc. Much of that changes when… again the African slave trade heated up.

Race may have been correlated with slavery in the United States. But race did not cause slavery to appear in the United States. The colonists did not get together and come up with the concept that enslaving Africans is what they needed to do. Hell the 1619 ruse is based on pirates bringing a boat into the colonies and there being debate on what to do with the slaves that were destined for other shores.
flown-the-coop
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BusterAg said:

flown-the-coop said:

Very simple question. If the slaves had been white, would the civil war have been fought.

Very very basic question.

That's kind of like asking what kind of meat is in a hot dog. Even George Washington knows the answer to this. "Nobody knows".

What kind of a world exists where the South has white and only white slaves? You gotta shake up quite a bit to get there. The answer to that question relies on all of the assumptions that you make to invent a world where there are white slaves in the south. Because you can get there pretty much any way you want to, answering that question is just a game of mental masturbation that doesn't really have any meaning.

But, I will generally play your game.

Yes.

If all of the slaves in the south were Irish gingers instead of black people, the civil war would still have been fought, because, as our nation became more educated, and regular people that could read would read the declaration of independence and would eventually see that the institution of slavery was 100% contrary to the philosophical foundations of the country. Some states would be addicted to free ginger labor, and would revolt when they saw the institution dying. The Northern states would have zero sympathy for the Southern states, as they would feel morally superior to states that enslaved the ginger, and would take advantage of them at every opportunity to make the more philosophically sophisticated North, who still hated gingers but just didn't enslave them, more prosperous. This would explode into a powder keg, and civil war would have broken out.

So now illiteracy caused slavery to persist? Or that Black slaves couldn't read?

Not sure I follow how you contorted yourself to answer a very basic question, which you finally did by agreeing with me. And by agreeing war still would have broken out, you now have to conclude that race was a correlation not a causation to the Civil War.

Why are some of you so committed to the cause of the war being muh racism? I think you sort of laid it out in the gymnastics dance competition your wrote, but "more educated" and "could read" regarding why the "morally superior" North decided to ***** slap them dumb hillbillies back in line. Heck you have done a pretty good job of supporting my position. Awarded one blue diamond parachute.
ETFan
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flown-the-coop said:

Very simple question. If the slaves had been white, would the civil war have been fought.

Very very basic question.


If my grandma had two wheels she'd be a bicycle? Yes? Ok, therefore the civil war wasn't about slavery. Also, Trump is basically better than Washington and Lincoln combined!


Oki doki
flown-the-coop
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ETFan said:

flown-the-coop said:

Very simple question. If the slaves had been white, would the civil war have been fought.

Very very basic question.


If my grandma had two wheels she'd be a bicycle? Yes? Ok, therefore the civil war wasn't about slavery. Also, Trump is basically better than Washington and Lincoln combined!


Oki doki

If your grandma had two wheels she would indeed be a bicycle. It's right in the name.

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