Why did the southern states think the U.S. could legally end slavery?

12,326 Views | 230 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by BBRex
ttu_85
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

You can keep saying it but nobody here feels guilty for something we had no part in. I'm truly sorry you don't have the intellectual ability to understand that.

Funny, I have often thought the same about you and your posting.
torrid
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AG
Imma make a few observations here:

- Slavery was a horrible institution
- It is a stain on the history of this country, founded upon freedom and individual rights
- It should not have taken a war to end it
BusterAg
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flown-the-coop said:

What were the terms of the individual "Indentures" referenced?

You are making an insinuation it was race based, but it could have been the first two had different terms of involuntary servitude.

Keep up your America is racist mantra. It's been entertaining, but it's grown boring. Have fun!

America is not racist.

Texas, in particular, might be the least racist place on earth.

That is not the same thing as arguing that antebellum slavery was defended based on racism.

You can say that America is not racist, and that slavery in the past was defended with racism, and be correct in both places.
BusterAg
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torrid said:

Imma make a few observations here:

- Slavery was a horrible institution
- It is a stain on the history of this country, founded upon freedom and individual rights
- It should not have taken a war to end it

I will agree with that.

The best result would have been an end to slavery and no civil war. And, the North did not have crystal clean motivations related to either slavery or racism for starting the war. But all three of the above statements are true.
BusterAg
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ttu_85 said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

reineraggie09 said:

pinche gringo said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

The 13th amendment barely passed the House without the southern states. If they were still in the union, it would never have been close. Much less ratification. Just stay in the U.S. and vote against it.

If, by some means, they do ban slavery, then secede. Doing it early took away their voting power.

Also, if the position of the U.S. was that secession was illegal, why weren't the southern states given a vote in the 13th amendment?


Maybe because it really wasn't all about slavery…


Underneath the Lincoln Memorial is a gift shop/restroom. On the wall is a speech from Lincoln. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." It wasn't about Slavery.


Quote:

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

The always ignored part of the letter and the context is often ignored as well. Lincoln was trying to keep the border states from seceding. He was a masterful politician that understand the issues better than most.

And the South seceded because of slavery.

Why are both side of this debate using absolutes. Such BS. Sure Slavery was a big part of it but their was also a huge debate about tariffs, constitutional debate regarding Federal vs State power. Which is still going on to this day. The North wanted tariffs, expanded Federal power, and an end to Slavery. The South hated tariffs given it was an export economy. And it wanted the power of the Central government checked.

Also the Union was not innocent at Sumter and neither was the South. They were both pressing each other.

So why dont all you absolutest pull off the angle wings and get real. It takes two sides to have a civil war, especially when both sides had major cultural and economic goals and each side was in the way of the other.

This is all true, and I generally agree with your overall analysis of the situation.

People want to make slavery either less important to the civil war than it was, or more important to the cause of the civil war than it was.

The reality is that if the disputes were just about tariffs and federal power, the civil war might or might not have happened. If the disputes were only about slavery, then the civil war might or might not have happened. But, slavery was a big part of the justification of the civil war for the south, and the justification for continuing the civil war in the North once it got started, and pretending that it was the only thing or not that important is incorrect on either side.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Quote:

Why are both side of this debate using absolutes. Such BS. Sure slavery was a big part of it but there was also a huge debate regarding tariffs, constitutional debate regarding Federal vs State power, which is still going on to this day. The North wanted tariffs, expanded Federal power, and an end to slavery. The South hated tariffs given it was an export economy. And it wanted the power of the central government checked.

Also the Union was not innocent at Sumter and neither was the South. They were both pressing each other.

So why dont all you absolutest pull off the angle wings and get real. It takes two sides to have a civil war, especially when both sides had major cultural and economic goals and each side was in the way of the other.

Slavery was the main driving force behind secession. Tariffs were a secondary issue at best. Now if things had popped off in 1832, it would have been tariffs.

The Federal v. State power argument ignores the expansion of slavery by the Federal government since 1850 and the forcing of non-slave states to respect enslavers' rights more than previously. Southerners had no problem complaining about states that were nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act and wanted the federal government to enforce it more vigorously.

And most Northern states didn't want to end slavery where it existed. They just wanted to stop it's expansion into the territories. The Kansas-Nebraska Act basically ended any hopes of that when it undid the Missouri Compromise.

Was it just slavery? No, I should have been more precise in my language. Was it mostly about slavery? Absolutely.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
Jack Boyette
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Quote:

Why are both side of this debate using absolutes. Such BS. Sure slavery was a big part of it but there was also a huge debate regarding tariffs, constitutional debate regarding Federal vs State power, which is still going on to this day. The North wanted tariffs, expanded Federal power, and an end to slavery. The South hated tariffs given it was an export economy. And it wanted the power of the central government checked.

Also the Union was not innocent at Sumter and neither was the South. They were both pressing each other.

So why dont all you absolutest pull off the angle wings and get real. It takes two sides to have a civil war, especially when both sides had major cultural and economic goals and each side was in the way of the other.

Slavery was the main driving force behind secession. Tariffs were a secondary issue at best. Now if things had popped off in 1832, it would have been tariffs.

The Federal v. State power argument ignores the expansion of slavery by the Federal government since 1850 and the forcing of non-slave states to respect enslavers' rights more than previously. Southerners had no problem complaining about states that were nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act and wanted the federal government to enforce it more vigorously.

And most Northern states didn't want to end slavery where it existed. They just wanted to stop it's expansion into the territories. The Kansas-Nebraska Act basically ended any hopes of that when it undid the Missouri Compromise.

Was it just slavery? No, I should have been more precise in my language. Was it mostly about slavery? Absolutely.


So…even if we take your summary at face value….the North wasn't morally superior and didn't actually care about slaves?

Ok. On that point we agree. They didn't. So if they didn't, they certainly weren't fighting the war over it and forcing states that no longer wanted to be there to be there because of it. So why did they? Why didn't they just let those states leave?

doubledog
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Jack Boyette said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Quote:

Why are both side of this debate using absolutes. Such BS. Sure slavery was a big part of it but there was also a huge debate regarding tariffs, constitutional debate regarding Federal vs State power, which is still going on to this day. The North wanted tariffs, expanded Federal power, and an end to slavery. The South hated tariffs given it was an export economy. And it wanted the power of the central government checked.

Also the Union was not innocent at Sumter and neither was the South. They were both pressing each other.

So why dont all you absolutest pull off the angle wings and get real. It takes two sides to have a civil war, especially when both sides had major cultural and economic goals and each side was in the way of the other.

Slavery was the main driving force behind secession. Tariffs were a secondary issue at best. Now if things had popped off in 1832, it would have been tariffs.

The Federal v. State power argument ignores the expansion of slavery by the Federal government since 1850 and the forcing of non-slave states to respect enslavers' rights more than previously. Southerners had no problem complaining about states that were nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act and wanted the federal government to enforce it more vigorously.

And most Northern states didn't want to end slavery where it existed. They just wanted to stop it's expansion into the territories. The Kansas-Nebraska Act basically ended any hopes of that when it undid the Missouri Compromise.

Was it just slavery? No, I should have been more precise in my language. Was it mostly about slavery? Absolutely.


So…even if we take your summary at face value….the North wasn't morally superior and didn't actually care about slaves?

Ok. On that point we agree. They didn't. So if they didn't, they certainly weren't fighting the war over it and forcing states that no longer wanted to be there to be there because of it. So why did they? Why didn't they just let those states leave?




No one had the moral upper ground, that being said Slavery was wrong and the final result was abolition of slavery as an institution in the U.S. and that is a moral victory.

Slavery was continue to be practiced by the Native Americans well into the 20th century.

One cannot argue, today, that the Union States is stronger today because it is a Union.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Who has made the "morally superior" argument?

Some in the Union fought to preserve the Union. Some fought because they were drafted or had nothing better to do. Some fought to end slavery. Ultimately, the Union was preserved and the scourge of slavery was ended.

And our history was changed for the better. Had we split, I worry that the fighting of WW1 and WW2 actually lands on our continental shores.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
BBRex
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Slavery in all its forms is evil, and ending it made for a more perfect union. Period.

Slavery also debased slave owners. The widespread rape, torture and murder of slaves is a testament to that.

It is possible to be racist and still be against the rape, torture and murder of people you think aren't as good as you.
flown-the-coop
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Widespread murder of slaves by their slave owners did not happen.

I will let you figure out why.

Rape? I think that's probably a given though as you said you could be a racist / slave owner and still be against rape.

Torture? If you remove punishment for various things I also do not believe this would be widespread.

Again, I will let you figure out why.
BBRex
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Of course it happened. Yes, I understand that slaves were property. It still happened.
Ag CPA
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Knew this thread would be a train wreck by page 7.
doubledog
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flown-the-coop said:

Widespread murder of slaves by their slave owners did not happen.

I will let you figure out why.

Rape? I think that's probably a given though as you said you could be a racist / slave owner and still be against rape.

Torture? If you remove punishment for various things I also do not believe this would be widespread.

Again, I will let you figure out why.

On average, African Americans have approximately 15% to 25% European (white) ancestry. Before 1865, sex could not be consensual between master and slave, because a slave was not considered a consenting person.
TrumpsBarber
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Here are the receipts:

The Real War for Revenue: How Lincoln's Conspiracy to Collect Tariffs at the Point of a Bayonet Ignited the War of Northern Aggression Not Slavery, But Southern Wealth
From a strictly Constitutional perspective, the provided February 28, 1861, report from Representative William Alanson Howard's select committeeissued just before the Morrill Tariff's final passage and amid escalating tensionslays bare the federal government's true priorities in the crisis over Fort Sumter and other Southern fortifications.
The document repeatedly frames the Union's insistence on holding these forts not as a defense against some abstract threat to slavery or even States' Rights in the abstract, but as a naked assertion of federal power to enforce revenue collection through tariffs (duties and imposts).
The committee obsesses over the "seizure" of forts, arsenals, revenue cutters, custom-houses, and other federal property, portraying these acts as lawless interruptions to the government's ability to collect imposts and conduct commercecore fiscal functions under the Constitution.
The report explicitly ties the Forts' strategic value to revenue enforcement, not military protection: it lists the seized assets as impeding "the operations of commerce" and denying federal authority over custom-houses and revenue cutters, which were the mechanisms for collecting tariffs at Southern ports.
Charleston Harbor's Fort Sumter, in particular, stood as the key federal installation controlling access to one of the South's busiest ports; holding it ensured the Union could continue to extract duties on imports, the primary source of federal revenue at the time (often over 90% in the antebellum era, with Southern ports contributing disproportionately due to their export-import reliance).
The committee's rhetoric underscores that the Forts were "implements of self-preservation" for the government, meaning the preservation of its taxing power, not moral crusades over slavery or States' Rights, only money.
The document dismisses Southern grievancesincluding alleged Northern hostility to Southern institutionsas mere pretexts or unexhausted remedies, while insisting the real issue is the Union's duty to execute laws, specifically revenue laws, with "unswerving steadiness and firmness."
This aligns perfectly with Abraham Lincoln's own words in his First Inaugural Address (March 4, 1861), where he pledged no interference with slavery where it existed but vowed to "collect the duties and imposts" in Seceded areas, framing any federal action as defensive enforcement of revenue obligations rather than coercion over slavery.
The rearming and provisioning of Fort Sumterattempted via the Star of the West in January 1861 under Buchanan and escalated under Lincoln in Aprilwas thus a direct effort to maintain a federal foothold for Tariff collection in Charleston Harbor.
Without Sumter under Union control, the Confederacy could redirect trade through low-tariff or no-tariff ports, starving the federal treasury of its lifeblood revenue and rendering the Morrill Tariff (passed March 2, 1861, after Southern senators withdrew) ineffective in the South.
Southern leaders viewed this as economic subjugation: high protective tariffs (like Morrill's, raising rates significantly to favor Northern industry) forced the agrarian South to subsidize Northern manufacturing while paying inflated prices for imports, with Tariffs collected overwhelmingly at Southern ports funding a government dominated by Northern industrial interests.
The committee report rejects Secession as constitutional, labeling it "revolution" destructive to the Union, but it conspicuously avoids elevating slavery as the central trigger. Instead, it portrays Southern actions as hostility to federal authority, particularly revenue enforcement, and warns that failing to hold the Forts would contempt the government's "rightful authority" and obstruct its lawschiefly revenue laws.
Northern ports collected far more in absolute tariffs due to volume, but the South bore a heavier relative burden as an import-dependent region taxed to benefit protected Northern industries.
Secession declarations from States like South Carolina and declarations from conventions highlighted long-standing Tariff oppression as a core economic grievance, compounded by the Morrill Tariff's timing, which Southerners saw as proof of Northern intent to perpetuate fiscal exploitation.
Thus, the entire crisis culminating at Fort Sumter was, at root, a revenue War. The Union's conspiracy to rearm and reman the Southern forts, including Sumter, aimed solely to compel Tariff payment and preserve federal fiscal dominance, not to abolish or even directly confront slaveryan institution Lincoln explicitly disclaimed intent to disturb.
Slavery served as a sectional rallying cry and moral cover in some rhetoric, but the committee's own language, the Constitutional focus on enforcing laws (revenue foremost), and the economic realities of Tariff dependence reveal the conflict as one over money and power: the North's refusal to lose its Southern revenue stream versus the South's assertion of Sovereign Independence from exploitative taxation.
The bombardment of Sumter on April 12, 1861, was the South's defensive response to this federal revenue-enforcement provocation, not an unprovoked attack over ancillary issues. In strict Constitutional terms, the Union overstepped by using military force to collect imposts in Seceded territory, violating the Compact's spirit and turning a fiscal dispute into invasion.
The War, therefore, was fundamentally about revenuesthe lifeblood of the central governmentnot slavery or other peripheral causes.
From a fiercely Southern and unyieldingly Constitutional vantage, the select committee's journalrecording the proceedings of January 11, 1861exposes the raw federal desperation to cling to Southern ports and the Tariff revenues they generated, as President James Buchanan's special message of January 8 lays out in stark, revenue-obsessed terms and no other.
Buchanan, that Northern Democrat whose administration had already seen the treasury teeter on collapse from falling imports amid the Secession crisis, openly admits the economic hemorrhage: imports plummeting "with a rapidity never known before, except in time of war," trade paralyzed, manufactures halted, public securities tanking, and thousands of Northern laborers thrown into idlenessall traceable to the South's lawful withdrawal from a Compact that had long funneled the bulk of federal imposts through her harbors.
Yet rather than concede the Constitutional Right of Sovereign States to dissolve a broken union, Buchanan doubles down on his "unchangeable" duty "to collect the public revenues and to protect the public property," framing the Forts, custom-houses, and revenue cutters as sacred implements for extracting duties from Southern commerce, the very lifeblood that had subsidized Northern industry for decades.
This was no abstract defense of the Union; it was a calculated stand to preserve the fiscal stranglehold of protective Tariffs like the looming Morrill abomination, which Southern States rightly saw as economic warfare designed to shield Yankee factories at the expense of Southern planters and exporters, who paid the piper while reaping none of the benefits.
In this light, South Carolina's commissionersRobert W. Barnwell, James H. Adams, and James L. Orremerge as models of Constitutional forbearance and honorable statesmanship, bearing full powers from the People's Convention to negotiate the "delivery of the Forts, magazines, light-houses, and other real estate" within her sovereign limits, alongside a fair apportionment of the public debt and division of other federal holdings.
Their December 28 letter to Buchanan breathes the spirit of peaceful independence: they had restrained their own authorities from seizing the Charleston Forts for sixty days, trusting "pledges" of federal honor over raw power, only to be met with Major Robert Anderson's treacherous relocation from Fort Moultrie to Sumtera blatant violation of the December 9 Armistice understanding with South Carolina's representatives that no reinforcements would be sent and the military status quo preserved.
Buchanan's reply, dated December 31, rings hollow with Northern sophistry; he denies any formal pledge while admitting he had "never sent any reinforcements" and "never authorized any change," yet he refuses to withdraw the troops, insisting Sumter must be defended as "a portion of the public property" essential to revenue enforcement. This was the conspiracy unmasked: the federal government, bankrupt in spirit and purse, viewed the forts not as defensive outposts but as revenue-collecting beachheads in what was now foreign territory, a Sovereign State that had lawfully repealed its ratification of the Constitution via ordinance on December 20, 1860, resuming all delegated powers and declaring perfect Independence.
The committee's referral of Buchanan's message, with its appended documentsincluding the full Ordinance of Secession and the commissioners' credentialsfurther illuminates the Southern perspective as one of deliberate, measured Sovereignty exercised to escape fiscal tyranny.
South Carolina's convention had acted in the spirit of the founders, dissolving the "Compact" after Northern States had repeatedly breached it through personal liberty laws, fugitive slave obstructions, and a Tariff regime that, from the Abominations of 1828 onward, had bled the South to enrich the North.
Buchanan's lament over "domestic strife" destroying public credit more than foreign war only underscores how the South's Secession threatened the Union's revenue streamTariffs that, in the antebellum era, comprised over 90 percent of federal income, disproportionately collected at Southern ports like Charleston, where low-duty imports fueled the agrarian economy now targeted for subjugation.
The seizures of the custom-house, post office, arsenal, and forts that followed Anderson's move were not "aggressive" acts of rebellion, as Buchanan falsely claims, but rightful assertions of State jurisdiction over property within her borders, taken to prevent the continued extraction of Unconstitutional imposts that would have starved the new Confederacy of economic vitality.
Buchanan's plea to Congress for "prompt action" to "collect the duties and imposts" in Seceded areasechoed in his insistence on defensive force against any resistance to federal officersreveals the true casus belli: not slavery, which the South had offered to negotiate or even perpetuate under the old Compact, but the North's refusal to relinquish its parasitic hold on Southern wealth.
Thus, the entire episode surrounding Fort Sumter and the other Southern fortifications stands as irrefutable proof that the impending War was, at its UnConstitutional core, a revenue wara federal plot to rearm and reman these outposts solely to compel Tariff payments from a People who had peacefully Seceded to escape such exploitation. South Carolina's commissioners had sought "amicable arrangement" and "continuance of peace and amity," urging troop withdrawal to enable negotiation, yet Buchanan's obstinacy, cloaked in executive duty, ensured collision.
The committee's inquiry into pledges, reinforcements, seizures, and revenue cutters only confirms what the documents scream: the Union's "self-preservation" was code for preserving its Tariff-dependent treasury, while the South, invoking the Compact Theory of the Constitution and the reserved Sovereignty of the States, acted to reclaim her ports, her commerce, and her destiny free from Northern fiscal despotism.
In strict Constitutional terms, Buchanan's refusal to recognize Secession or withdraw from Sumter was the aggression; the South's defense of her Sovereignty was the righteous response.
The War that followed was never about "slavery or any other ancillary causes"it was the North's violent insistence on collecting revenues from a Sovereign People who would no longer submit, a betrayal of the Founders' vision of a Voluntary Union that the South, in her Constitutional purity, sought only to dissolve honorably and peacefully.

October 3, 2000
References
Report of the Select
Committee of Five (Howard Committee Report), February 28, 1861, House of Representatives, 36th Congress, 2nd Session Ordered to be printed, focusing on the seizure of forts, arsenals, revenue cutters, custom-houses, and other federal property, with explicit emphasis on impeded commerce and revenue collection.
Special Message of President James Buchanan to Congress, January 8, 1861 (transmitted January 9, 1861), detailing the economic devastation from falling imports, the duty to collect public revenues, the defensive protection of public property (especially forts in Charleston Harbor), and refusal to withdraw troops from Fort Sumter.
Ordinance of Secession of South Carolina, adopted December 20, 1860, by the Convention of the People of South Carolina, repealing the 1788 ratification of the U.S. Constitution and declaring the union dissolved.
Full Powers and Commission issued to South Carolina Commissioners R. W. Barnwell, J. H. Adams, and James L. Orr, December 22, 1860, authorizing negotiation for delivery of forts and other federal property within South Carolina, apportionment of public debt, and peaceful arrangements.
Correspondence between South Carolina Commissioners and President Buchanan, December 28, 1860 (commissioners' letter demanding withdrawal of troops) and December 31, 1860 (Buchanan's reply refusing withdrawal while denying formal pledges but insisting on revenue collection and property defense).
December 9, 1860, Written Assurance from South Carolina Representatives (McQueen, Miles, Bonham, Boyce, Keitt) to Buchanan promising no attack on Charleston forts pending negotiation, provided no reinforcements were sent and status quo maintained.
War Department Orders to Major Robert Anderson, December 11, 1860 (via Assistant Adjutant General D. C. Buell, approved by Secretary John B. Floyd), authorizing defensive relocation if tangible evidence of hostile intent existed.



flown-the-coop
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AG
doubledog said:

flown-the-coop said:

Widespread murder of slaves by their slave owners did not happen.

I will let you figure out why.

Rape? I think that's probably a given though as you said you could be a racist / slave owner and still be against rape.

Torture? If you remove punishment for various things I also do not believe this would be widespread.

Again, I will let you figure out why.

On average, African Americans have approximately 15% to 25% European (white) ancestry. Before 1865, sex could not be consensual between master and slave, because a slave was not considered a consenting person.

Are you trying to say that regardless of the interactions, any sex between slave and master was rape?

And 25% ancestry would indicate 1 of the grandparents was white. Was these genetic study done in the 1880s?
flown-the-coop
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BBRex said:

Of course it happened. Yes, I understand that slaves were property. It still happened.

You said widespread. That would be like saying companies take a bat to their work vehicles on a widespread basis, sometimes permanently disabling those vehicles.

It's that same silly argument about slavery being racist. If you are looking for a work truck, and you could buy dark brown Ford F-350 fully kitted out or a white Volkswagen Beetle assembled in Ireland… it's not racist to choose the Ford.

Those were the realities at the time.
doubledog
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flown-the-coop said:

doubledog said:

flown-the-coop said:

Widespread murder of slaves by their slave owners did not happen.

I will let you figure out why.

Rape? I think that's probably a given though as you said you could be a racist / slave owner and still be against rape.

Torture? If you remove punishment for various things I also do not believe this would be widespread.

Again, I will let you figure out why.

On average, African Americans have approximately 15% to 25% European (white) ancestry. Before 1865, sex could not be consensual between master and slave, because a slave was not considered a consenting person.

Are you trying to say that regardless of the interactions, any sex between slave and master was rape?

And 25% ancestry would indicate 1 of the grandparents was white. Was these genetic study done in the 1880s?

If the slave did not have free consent, then yes.
The latest study was 2023
https://genestogenomes.org/new-study-offers-african-american-genealogical-information-unrecoverable-from-written-record
flown-the-coop
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Wow. Outside of a poor understanding of genetics, not only were the white southerners racists, you think many of them were rapists?

Good luck with that. I come from a family of tenant farmers so none of that is in my blood, but that's some 1619 Project contortioning of history.

You live your truth though.

Update: went ahead and read the article. Want to make sure I follow what your are saying. You take this article saying that current African Americans show 15% - 25% European ancestors, then that means the white slave owners raped them?

Cause you have to exclude a lot of other causes and a whole lot of postbellum mixing to arrive at that poor assumption.

Were there relationships between slave owners and slaves? Of course, we know this quite famously from Thomas Jefferson and his great great great grandson George. But seriously, it happened and by the definition that a slave did not have free will then I can accept labeling it rape. I do think it should be noted that there are examples of "romances" between owner and slave, but those were admittedly rare.

If one feels the need to make such claims of racists and rapists 150 years after the Civil War then I don't think you are well equipped for what lies ahead. There is no need for there to be apologies and shame for someone's ancestors may have done. Quit holding grudges and quit judging history through the lenses of today.
Jarrin Jay
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Uh, it wasn't just in the South, Buster. The vast majority of white Americans in the north wanted nothing to do with Africans/Blacks or more appropriately "n*****s" as they would all have called them even from the mouths of women and children. And I am not talking about a 2000s majority of 61%, more like 95%+.

Define it how you want, back then it was not deemed to be or called "racism". The slaves were an imported work force, nothing more. They were bought/traded for and the vast majority were already slaves in Africa. It was never the intent that those of the imported work force would ever be full fledged citizens of the USA.

The North was complicit, supported and active in the slave trade and indeed most of the profiteering of the slave trade was in the North.

All of this is obviously very ugly and morally wrong, but true.

As for the Civil War, it can certainly be argued slavery was a cause for secession, one of many, assign % as you see fit. But there isn't much argument that the actual war was not fought over slavery. The North was fighting to preserve the Union and based almost entirely on economic factors, while 9+ out of 10 CSA soldiers fought an invading army intent on keeping their state in the Union against their will. You will never convince me that working and often poor men with farms and families that didn't own slaves willingly went to be maimed and slaughtered fighting for the right of rich plantation owners to have slaves.

Not until AFTER the Civil War was the USA thought of as an integrated nation, prior to that it was a collection of states like Western Europe with some shared ideals and norms.

Not to be dismissive of the slavery issue which was wrong and immoral, but what the South was truly fighting against was having the kind of despotic federal government that we have today. In that the South was more in line with the founding fathers and the Constitution as written and understood at the time.
BBRex
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AG
Quote:

while 9+ out of 10 CSA soldiers fought an invading army intent on keeping their state in the Union against their will. You will never convince me that working and often poor men with farms and families that didn't own slaves willingly went to be maimed and slaughtered fighting for the right of rich plantation owners to have slaves.


Generally speaking, the men who fight the wars are generally not the ones setting policy, so it matters little what they thought was a reason to fight. You can say the same thing about the U.S. troops in the Gulf War. Most of them likely enlisted for the benefits or a general desire to serve their country, not because of the geopolitical motives that set the war in motion.

And while the men fighting in the rank and file might not have been fighting for slave masters, they did understand that their little place in the hierarchy was in jeopardy if black men were free. It's also a big reason why they fought to to keep society segregated after the war.
 
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