Political fallout and arguments regarding the US-Israeli action against Iran 022824

312,826 Views | 3601 Replies | Last: 17 sec ago by AGHouston11
FIDO_Ags
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Quote:

The problem is the old trope that Jews control everything in the world. When you see things like "Israel led the usa into this" or "Kushner and bibi influenced trump" or "Israel's war" or the dozens of other arguments here that, at the very least, walk right up to the line of what would be considered traditional antisemitism. Except the word jew is replaced with Israel, as if thats some magic bullet that absolves one.


mikejones, while I agree mostly with this statement, I do think it's possible to separate the policy of the Stste of Israel from the population. Much of that old trope is from a time before there was an official Jewish state. Now that they have an internationally recognized state, they are open to criticism much like any other nation.

In this case, I think the initial mixed messaging from the US about why striking Iran was necessary is what caused both sides to declare antisemitism (pro or angainst) and use that word to their advantage.

The US seems to have settled on the message of no nukes for Iran but backed into that message based on actions that Israel was going to make unilaterally, regardless of US action. I think Trump saw this as an opportunity to move on Iran as well and would not have done that of his own accord. I say that, because we didn't move first, which is odd since Iran and its proxies have terrorized American assets and Americans around the globe for nearly fifty years.
aggiehawg
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Quote:

I think Trump saw this as an opportunity to move on Iran as well and would not have done that of his own accord. I say that, because we didn't move first, which is odd since Iran and its proxies have terrorized American assets and Americans around the globe for nearly fifty years.

Iran had been protected by the Soviets and then Russia since 1979. Making a move on them risked bringing in Russia. But with Russia bogged down in Ukraine and having suffered militarily so their ability to intervene on Ian's behalf is severely degraded.
annie88
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Trump position on Iran in 1987. I know it's a little off of what this thread is but it really relates to what's going on today.

I avoid temptation unless I can’t resist it.
2026NCAggies
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K2-HMFIC said:

Ag with kids said:


Link from the military thread...By K2-HMFIC
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Trump needs the strait open. Repubs can't walk into the midterms with $100+ oil.


Bingo. Bango. Bongo.

Want a 55-45 Dem-Rep Senate? Have $100/bb oil




What 8 senate seats are going to flip?

Republicans
Armstrong, Alan (R-OK)
Capito, Shelley Moore (R-WV)
Cassidy, Bill (R-LA)
Collins, Susan M. (R-ME)
Cornyn, John (R-TX)
Cotton, Tom (R-AR)
Daines, Steve (R-MT)
Ernst, Joni (R-IA)
Graham, Lindsey (R-SC)
Hagerty, Bill (R-TN)
Hyde-Smith, Cindy (R-MS)
Lummis, Cynthia M. (R-WY)
Marshall, Roger (R-KS)
McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
Ricketts, Pete (R-NE)
Risch, James E. (R-ID)
Rounds, Mike (R-SD)
Sullivan, Dan (R-AK)
Tillis, Thom (R-NC)
Tuberville, Tommy (R-AL)

ETA: Now, the HOUSE could go from a mild loss to a medium loss with oil that high...but even there, there are so few competitive seats left...



NE: Osborn almost won in 2024…he could beat Ricketts in a wave year.
OH: Husted is running against Sherrod Brown…he's a known name…again bad news for Rs in a potential blue wave.
ME: Collins…purple state
NC: Cooper beats Whatley
TX: Talarico would beat Paxton (yes I know this board hates that discussion)
AK: Sullivan can lose to Peltota…again a swingy state with a weird electorate
IA: Ernst is running…open seat…


in a Dem Wave year with oil over $100bb then it's a serious possibility.

LMFAO wow is all i can say to this

The only ones on that list that are truly in play are Maine, Ohio and NC. The only one of those three that I see as lost is North Carolina

You also forgot about the possible states that could flip to R. Georgia, NH and Michigan. Sununu was a VERY popular Governor. Polling right now in Michigan and NH are neck and neck. I have not seen polling yet from Georgia but considering their crackdown on Atlanta cheating, it is going to be a tight race

NE, Texas, Iowa are VERY funny, Jesus Christ wow funny
Who?mikejones!
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I agree with you. I think you can fairly criticize any nations policy and theres nothing inherently special about Israel in that regard.

Sid Farkas
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aggiehawg said:

Quote:

I think Trump saw this as an opportunity to move on Iran as well and would not have done that of his own accord. I say that, because we didn't move first, which is odd since Iran and its proxies have terrorized American assets and Americans around the globe for nearly fifty years.

Iran had been protected by the Soviets and then Russia since 1979. Making a move on them risked bringing in Russia. But with Russia bogged down in Ukraine and having suffered militarily so their ability to intervene on Ian's behalf is severely degraded.

also, I think the rest of the world has had enough of fundamentalist Islam and see it more as an existential threat than a tool to use asymmetrically against the West. The Chinese aren't stupid and are dealing with the Uygurs...They just want oil without the BS...The Russians learned hard lessons from Afghanistan and the Chechens.

There was a time when the Sunnis sided with the Shiites against the West in situations like this...no more. They're siding with peace and prosperity, not medieval misery. (Trump & Netanyahu have been methodical in building a coalition). The time is right to end the insanity.
Texas velvet maestro
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Sid Farkas said:

aggiehawg said:

Quote:

I think Trump saw this as an opportunity to move on Iran as well and would not have done that of his own accord. I say that, because we didn't move first, which is odd since Iran and its proxies have terrorized American assets and Americans around the globe for nearly fifty years.

Iran had been protected by the Soviets and then Russia since 1979. Making a move on them risked bringing in Russia. But with Russia bogged down in Ukraine and having suffered militarily so their ability to intervene on Ian's behalf is severely degraded.

also, I think the rest of the world has had enough of fundamentalist Islam and see it more as an existential threat than a tool to use asymmetrically against the West. The Chinese aren't stupid and are dealing with the Uygurs...They just want oil without the BS...The Russians learned hard lessons from Afghanistan and the Chechens.

There was a time when the Sunnis sided with the Shiites against the West in situations like this...no more. They're siding with peace and prosperity, not medieval misery. (Trump & Netanyahu have been methodical in building a coalition). The time is right to end the insanity.

I promise you we're not on the road to a peaceful utopia, hand in hand w Israel. killing fundamentalists and those in their proximity.
FIDO_Ags
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Quote:

Iran had been protected by the Soviets and then Russia since 1979. Making a move on them risked bringing in Russia. But with Russia bogged down in Ukraine and having suffered militarily so their ability to intervene on Ian's behalf is severely degraded.


That's certainly a fair statement and I agree as it makes geopolitical sense. I was talking more near term as the Israelis have been leading the way vs Iran since at least June, not the US.

One note: if you say that Russia has been degraded, which they have, then you also have to give NATO and Biden credit for making that happen by providing material support to Ukraine's war effort vs Russia.
AGHouston11
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FIDO_Ags said:

Quote:

Iran had been protected by the Soviets and then Russia since 1979. Making a move on them risked bringing in Russia. But with Russia bogged down in Ukraine and having suffered militarily so their ability to intervene on Ian's behalf is severely degraded.


That's certainly a fair statement and I agree as it makes geopolitical sense. I was talking more near term as the Israelis have been leading the way vs Iran since at least June, not the US.

One note: if you say that Russia has been degraded, which they have, then you also have to give NATO and Biden credit for making that happen by providing material support to Ukraine's war effort vs Russia.


Well he did give Putin the green light to invade
Who?mikejones!
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I seem to remember.....don't
Dan Scott
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I'm guessing Trump is going to announce ground incursion tomorrow night.
KentK93
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I think one of the fallouts will be the UK gets a new PM:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15696389/Trumps-taunt-exposes-PM-without-plan-oil-line-sparks-questions-Government-deal-global-fuel-crisis.html
TRM
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YouBet
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Keyno said:

YouBet said:

Keyno said:

bobbranco said:

Queso1 said:

The disgusting thing is that Trump was unable to stay on target and deviated into this unnecessary idiocy. Had he done what he said he'd do in the election, we wouldn't be facing a **** storm in November.

But, blame goes to Congress too. These morons had both houses of the legislature and still couldn't pass anything but a bull**** spending bill.

No deportations. Doge was a joke. Nothing.

Elections are a farce. Every single one of these clowns is controlled. They're either beholden to money or someone has their pornhub login.


This is amazingly naive. Some people don't understand the congressional process. It's impossible for a party to pass legislation without having 60+ senators on the same team.

Couple that with the American Pravda gaslighting (brainwashing) the masses, the "Nothing" happened.

We now have so called conservatives ripping out their hair about the honorable task of preventing a rabid death cult from obtaining nuclear weapons.

Does anyone do HS civics anymore?

Yeah, we understand how it works. It's just frustrating- the GOP can make all the promises in the world when they are running for office, and then when they don't do anything they can just blame the democrats. But when Israel needs us to go do another foreign war for them- the GOP WILL do that no matter what. Congress be danged.


You are a little early with this comment so it's mostly irrelevant. GOP has had little to do with this. This is Trump attacking Iran using his executive powers that have been around for years.

The GOP won't be involved until end of April when they have to approve any further resources to continue. We likely won't make it to the end of the month before Trump declares victory and shuts it down. But if we do, the Republicans likely won't approve any further action. They are highly skittish of this effort as is.

The GOP is absolutely bought by AIPAC. If Israel wants us to keep going- we will.


Maybe; maybe not. Again, I don't think we make it to April 29.

Senate R's are not going to approve anything beyond that. Lindsey Graham, who is the biggest Bomb Iran hoar we have, is even saying to wind it down.
bigtruckguy3500
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Long podcast, but I think a good interview with General McChrystal.


annie88
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I avoid temptation unless I can’t resist it.
TRM
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sanangelo
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bigtruckguy3500 said:

Long podcast, but I think a good interview with General McChrystal.




This podcast is very good. McChrystal is a bit of a lefty, but he's also a very competent commander who led a big part of the success of the Iraq surge.

What he explains about the "intoxicating" instruments of force -- special ops, airpower, etc -- is right on!

He explains that "this time is different" arguments about airpower alone changing hearts and minds of the enemy is never "different."

Paraphrasing the general: "Once you start a war, it never ends the way you want it. Sometimes you may be better off after the war, but most times you aren't."

His thoughts about Hegseth are spot-on too. He said the 'bravado' can be detrimental, especially on young, teenaged troops.

This is worth a listen.
San Angelo LIVE!
https://sanangelolive.com/
sts7049
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nortex97
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'A bit of a lefty' is an understatement, and I think a lot of vets despise him, but whatever.

The euroweenies and their press lapdogs are really not doing themselves any favors at all, imho. France in particular:
Quote:

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting NATO requires its European members to join the conflict in full force. But I am suggesting they shouldn't act like spoiled brats, closing their airspace and fretting over the use of their bases for a bombing campaign against an Islamic terrorist regime. If we can't count on them for something that costs them essentially nothing, we won't be able to count on them when the stakes are higher.

In response to this idiocy, Israel has rightfully cut off all security sales to France, which relies on other nations for much of its military technology.

It should be noted that after we liberated France from the nazi's, DeGaulle thanklessly pulled France out of nato back in the 60's, at the height of the cold war. Never reliable partners.
nortex97
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Politico: Europe is wrong to say 'Iran is not our war.' Duh, when even politico gets it, something should be quite obvious.
Quote:

For all the uncertainty about America and Israel's ultimate goals in Iran, I am convinced of one thing: In a situation this critical, in which the Americans are once again pulling Europe's chestnuts out of the fire, it would be better to stand together. Europe shouldn't stab the American government in the back as it pursues these efforts.

Europe alone cannot cope
Instead of working behind the scenes to find the right course and the best approach what used to be called diplomacy we are staging set-piece clashes in public. We will pay a high price for this unnecessary rhetoric of feeling slighted rhetoric that, in the end, is only chasing applause at home. Future American governments, too, will remember this withdrawal of solidarity. If we have to cope in the future on our own with both the fight against the Islamism directed from Tehran and the imperial aggression emanating from Moscow, Europe will be overwhelmed.

...
It is nave to assume that what we see and know is exactly what is happening and being planned in Washington. The only thing we really know is that in situations like this, we know only a fraction of the truth. And that fraction of the truth is that the American government is finally trying to weaken the mullahs' reign of terror by force of arms. And that is long overdue.

For more than four and a half decades, Iran's Revolutionary Guards have terrorized the free world. Their goal is not just the destruction of Israel and all Jews, but the destruction of the open society the godless, decadent liberal democracy they despise precisely because it is free. Our way of life. Our security. Our interests.

For decades, the mullahs have killed not only women they deem dishonorable because they are unveiled, but also homosexuals. They systematically murder their own people whenever they speak their minds; they murder dissidents most recently, apparently more than 30,000 of them in a matter of days. With the same ruthlessness and efficiency, the regime in Tehran organizes violence internationally.

More at the link. Great article, which I am absolutely shocked to see Politico published. Probably censored in the EU.
Haleyscomet50
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Who?mikejones! said:

Of course, claiming "its Israel, not the Jews" is akin to jon Stewart saying "im just a comic" when he gets called out.

The problem is the old trope that Jews control everything in the world. When you see things like "Israel led the usa into this" or "Kushner and bibi influenced trump" or "Israel's war" or the dozens of other arguments here that, at the very least, walk right up to the line of what would be considered traditional antisemitism. Except the word jew is replaced with Israel, as if thats some magic bullet that absolves one.

I, for one, think it'd be far more convincing if people stuck to why this war is bad for the usa, on its own merits, without invoking Israel

It's okay to ask questions in a fair manner but when you hide behind every answer with accusations of anti Semitic it pushes the narrative even more. Not saying you do that but that's how any question about Israel is framed. A good faith debate should begin with anyone saying that Jewish Americans have a bias toward Israel first and every issue they view from a different lens the the majority of Americans. If I was jewish I would be the same way.

People end up blaming them and not trusting them on anything because so many issues that show favoritism and different sets of rules emerge and fuel those feelings. People didn't just wake up one day and start thinking Israel is the problem for no reason. Something happens and instead of addressing it the opposing side gets labeled anti Semitic and people are told you didn't see that or it's a good reason for it but we never tell you.

Smoke equals fire unless it's Israel then it's just some anti Semitic person burning something. The more we learn about every situation with Israel doesn't dissolve them of guilt it just makes them and our government look more guilty. Somehow that makes the opposing side wrong.

It's the media and 2 party system working against the American people that make me question thing. The liberal media always pounces on anything that can show Republicans or Trump in a bad light but dont bring up the obvious like Huckabee meeting with a traitor or Cruz saying he ran for Senate to be the biggest advocate in Congress for Israel. I guess its makes me a tin foil anti Semitic to notice those things.
bigtruckguy3500
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There are some interesting videos out there with this guy
Who?mikejones!
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Yes, its the same for both sides. One can lean too far into simply swapping Israel for Jewish and the other can lean too far into any criticism of Israel id anti Semitic
Texas velvet maestro
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My wife has a friend with a business. dresses and clothes. There are containers not coming in time for Easter, prom, spring season. Once again, the big box stores will be fine. I know another small business waiting on a shipment of AR steel.

I'm just guessing, but this is probably also going on outside of my limited scope. But like the transfer of wealth during Covid, it's probably not headline news.

but there isn't much American(s) First, about this administration. so I'd expect there to be some problems at the polls due to this.

BuddysBud
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The containers of dresses are coming from the ME?

The container issue goes back to COVID and the Biden administration's union this and union that policies. The problem is with the dock workers and silly California requirements for trucks.

Although it isn't nearly as bad as it was two years ago, some of our suppliers are still seeing a few delays getting shipments into port.

Nevertheless, as a small business owner, getting product is 1000 times better than it was under Biden.
flown-the-coop
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Dorm 15 said:

I know exactly where I am, Billings, Montana. I am also very blessed as I am not obligated to worship at the throne of President Trump. I can congratulate him when he does good and criticize him when he does not.

No one is obligated to worship Donald Trump and frankly I am not sure I have ever seen someone worship him.

I thought you were big in New Mexico based on your Epsteiner obsessions. So I think my comment on being lost stands.

When you resort to saying someone worships Trumps cause you got nothing else to say, perhaps it's time for you to move on.
rgag12
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flown-the-coop said:

Dorm 15 said:

I know exactly where I am, Billings, Montana. I am also very blessed as I am not obligated to worship at the throne of President Trump. I can congratulate him when he does good and criticize him when he does not.

No one is obligated to worship Donald Trump and frankly I am not sure I have ever seen someone worship him.



You must be new here! Welcome!
flown-the-coop
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MericaFirst said:

flown-the-coop said:


Secure the Hormuz, retrieve the enriched uranium and much crow shall be served on this threads.
Imagine folks who cheer for the US to fail and do so by ignoring success.


Its looking like "securing the Hormuz" might be blessing Iran with a major new permanent revenue stream via a Hormuz toll booth. That would make Obama pallets of cash look like chump change.

Iran might hand over worthless Uranium for valuable concessions, allowing Trump to sell "victory". Im cheering for that. Thats literally cheering for success, as opposed to cheering for a new ME mess/failure.

Although, it would be cool to see Mark Levin's dog "retreive" the Uranium.

Insert > "scooby jew" golden retriever image

Such an impossibly bad take that Scooby Jew is taking a dump on the printout of your post.

Keep cheering for Iran. Username is sarcasm I assume?
flown-the-coop
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AggieCVQ said:

Let's point out some issues then:

"Prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons" vs intelligence saying no active weapons program. In the article itself, it says

Operation Midnight Hammer … "obliterated Iran's nuclear program."

Then... why further large-scale war?


Why do I as an american care about

Destroying Iranian offensive missile capability



80 pages and you still don't get it.
5Amp
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IMO
Tonight Trump will announce the USA/Israel are winding down and will support but not lead in reopening the strait. He will announce Iran has been defanged and it is up to the regional powers to help the IRANIANS gain their freedom. Just as he said to the Iranians when he started this operation, the opportunity is now and there may never be a better time to take back your country.

The reason I believe he will say this is he has been saying this since day one. Four to six weeks to complete what they wanted to do. Mario stated last week we were close to be done with the operation.


UAE and other regional powers will control the strait opening and Frnce will lead in cleaning the waters of mines.

The western hemisphere gets very little benefit from the strait being open or close and no way will President Trump commit American ground forces.

flown-the-coop
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Ervin Burrell said:

LMCane said:

This post by Trump is pre-framing what's to come. Read along and you'll start to see it too.

When Trump tells the UK to "go to the Strait and just TAKE IT," the surface read is that he's venting at allies who didn't show up.

But the deeper move is priming the the public (and world) with a new mental frame: the Strait of Hormuz is not Iranian sovereign territory anymore.

It's available real estate. It's takeable. Anyone with courage can have it.

That's a massive Overton Window shift delivered, in a tweet, as an insult to the UK.

A year ago "America controls the Strait of Hormuz" sounded like some twisted fantasy. Today Trump is telling Britain to go grab it themselves like it's a parking spot.

In a few weeks, Trump has normalized the concept of Western control over the Strait so thoroughly that full US seizure now looks like the modest option compared to what he's suggesting allies do on their own. This is intentional.

The persuasion mechanics here are priming plus pre-selling. Whatever the eventual deal includes (US Navy permanent presence, joint patrols, Iranian withdrawal from mining infrastructure) the public will accept it because Trump already told them the Strait is there for the taking. Your subconscious mind has already been primed to accept it.

This "psychological baseline" is going to influence Trump-Iran negotiations. Best believe it.

"The hard part is done" works the same way. He's managing public fatigue.

It translates to "we won, relax, this is cleanup".

This keeps approval from eroding while the Pakistan talks drag through April.

Trump isn't describing reality. He's installing it.

Say the Strait is takeable enough times and it becomes takeable in the public mind.

It's been 10 years of Trump and he still leaves me in awe with his persuasion.

Hardest working man in coming up with defenses for Dear Leader (besides ftc, of course).

Rather be hard working than a simp for the left.

Do you have any evidence Trump acts like the North Korean dictator you like to reference?

Lazy ad homs are lazy. Poor takes are poor. Libs hate America and it shows.
flown-the-coop
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MericaFirst said:

Behind the scenes you got Jared Kushner doing his Uncle Bibi's bidding at the negotiation table. In the WH press room you got Hegseth pushing this Holy Christian Crusade angle.

I liked it better when they were victory lapping on "Regime Change" and "total military victory". Lets get back to that and close this out before EO April.

Proof on Kushner or he just being a Jew bothers you? Cause I see no basis for the accusation.

One nation under God, but Pete's a Jesus Freak for praying for our troops.

Other comments are just trolling. Be better.
flown-the-coop
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MericaFirst said:

Ag with kids said:


It's the Jews!!! is back.


I dont think its an accident that we repeatedly see people conflate the country of Israel with "the jews".

Kusher wrote in his book about Uncle Bibi coming over to his family home in 1990s. Jared gave up his own bed for Uncle Bibi, and slept in the basement pullout bed. Jared has always been a lib, and Kushners were always big dem donors.

He pivoted his poltical appearance when his father in law entered the WH. But at his core, Kushner is Israel first. He has all the honors and awards from Israel to prove it. "Facts dont care about your feelings" -B.Shapiro

Time to get back to America First.

Such an Israel fist guy that he negotiated the Abraham Accords with Arab Muslim countries.

I thought Jared was corrupted by the Arabs giving him billions. Like Trump being bribed by the Qatari airplane.

Were the Jews and Uncle BiBi behind that too?

The antisemitism is getting thick around here. People showing their true colors.
Old May Banker
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annie88 said:



This is terrific
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