Dan Carlin said:

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Fundies pimping their religious beliefs over a captive audience of children. What could possibly go wrong.

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Marxists pimping their insanity to a captive audience of children. What could possibly go wrong?

Silent For Too Long said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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infinity ag said:

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No religion in schools.

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Teaching basic morals and ethics isn't "religion", its common sense.

We have abandoned that and now are kids love Marxism, worship Gaia, our afraud to have children, and mutilate their own genitals.

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Morals and ethics can't be taught without the commandments put up?

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They aren't, so...

The 10 Commandments are symbol of a society that respects the rule of Law.

Not one that worships hedonism. Which is what we have instead.

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Are you saying that unless the commandments are put up children can't be taught to respect the rule of law? That morals and ethics can only be learned by them if the commandments are put up in their classrooms?

Just trying to follow you on this one.

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Its a symbol of an ideal and a mindset.

Symbols are extremely powerful and important. Our founders understood this. In truth, the marxists understand this too, which is why they have devoted so much attention to tearing them down.

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And no one has ever been able to learn morals, ethics, or taught to learn the rule of law before now?

Does this mean that them being up, no one in any classroom will ever be immoral, unethical, or break any laws?

Don't forget- post the 10 Commandments in school.

While also accusing the Catholic church and the Pope of being too liberal.

Make it make sense!

Morals and ethics come from parents and how they are raised. Period.

As a teacher I can guarantee you zero students look at or think about some dumb 10 Commandments poster.

It is this fake outrage at an insignificant thing.

While tolerating wholesale corruption at the highest levels. Clean your own house and then you can have a point.

Ag98and03 said:

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Don't forget- post the 10 Commandments in school.

While also accusing the Catholic church and the Pope of being too liberal.

Make it make sense!

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More non sequiturs.

Not only are we failing at properly teaching morals ethics in schools, we are certainly doing a bang up job on logical fallacies.

Ag98and03 said:

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Morals and ethics come from parents and how they are raised. Period.

As a teacher I can guarantee you zero students look at or think about some dumb 10 Commandments poster.

It is this fake outrage at an insignificant thing.

While tolerating wholesale corruption at the highest levels. Clean your own house and then you can have a point.

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Morals and ethics absolutely have a place in pedagogy, and always have.

The fact that a certified teacher doesn't think so proves my point rather succinctly. Thank you.

Malibu said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Malibu said:

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My religious preferences are deeply personal to me and are between me and God, and I have 0 interest in any kind of state involvement in mine or my children's religious preferences, even if I actually align with the state's preferences. When the state has a monopoly on legal violence, any kind of implied preference cannot be removed from that monopoly of violence, which is why I reject any slippery slope where the government tacitly endorses one religion. It's simply not the government's business, it's God's business.

You are making a different argument now though that the state does have an interest in the character development of its citizens, and ancient wisdom across the world's major religions have relevant contributions to that discussion. I agree, with the caveat that the implementation matters.

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Literally everything is downstream of religion. What you say you want is impossible.

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What I say I want is actually how things are right now.

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What do we teach now in schools?
About how students should treat each other?
On the morality of chattel slavery?
About how to dress?
About whether or not our sense experiences are reliable?
You can't take a position on anything absent first principles. You have to reject solipsism for example to do school at all.

What in the world does any of that have to do with the government compelling people to hold certain religious beliefs?

Malibu said:

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What in the world does any of that have to do with the government compelling people to hold certain religious beliefs?

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You don't believe this is the government compelling people to believe the claims of Christianity though.

What do you actually think? It seems to me you're fine with encouraging some behavior that flows from religious precepts, but not with the religious precepts themselves. That's incoherent.

Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

Bob Lee said:

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Malibu said:

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What in the world does any of that have to do with the government compelling people to hold certain religious beliefs?

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You don't believe this is the government compelling people to believe the claims of Christianity though.

What do you actually think? It seems to me you're fine with encouraging some behavior that flows from religious precepts, but not with the religious precepts themselves. That's incoherent.

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It's not incoherent at all to acknowledge what different faiths, Roman Emperors, Founding fathers, etc. have said about the character and how to comport oneself, and to form a curriculum of civic virtue around all of those. I am saying that the backbone of that curriculum should not be The 10 commandments and the sermon on the mount. I am saying that those would be included holistically.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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It's true. I unfortunately grew up in a school that did not have the Ten Commandments, so I would either rape or kill a classmate depending on how I was feeling that day. I'm glad today's children will grow up in a better environment.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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So laws don't mean anything at all? We need to also be subservient to 10 extra special commands too?

Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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It's true. I unfortunately grew up in a school that did not have the Ten Commandments, so I would either rape or kill a classmate depending on how I was feeling that day. I'm glad today's children will grow up in a better environment.

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Again, we have prominent leftists explicitly stating its okay to steal and murder, completing invalidating your entire argument.

twelve12twelve said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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So laws don't mean anything at all? We need to also be subservient to 10 extra special commands too?

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Another strawman.

FWIW, I did mischaracterize your view of compulsion, which was unfair.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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It's true. I unfortunately grew up in a school that did not have the Ten Commandments, so I would either rape or kill a classmate depending on how I was feeling that day. I'm glad today's children will grow up in a better environment.

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we have prominent leftists explicitly stating its okay to steal and murder

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Posting this right before you immediately invoked strawman on someone else made my day. Never change.

Malibu said:

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FWIW, I did mischaracterize your view of compulsion, which was unfair.

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Thanks man. I got nothing but love for ya.

I actually had a quite libertarian stance on this issue until quite recently. I just think we tried so hard to make things 'secular" that we left a moral and ethical void that has been filled with people who literally want to tear our civilization apart.

Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

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We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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It's true. I unfortunately grew up in a school that did not have the Ten Commandments, so I would either rape or kill a classmate depending on how I was feeling that day. I'm glad today's children will grow up in a better environment.

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we have prominent leftists explicitly stating its okay to steal and murder

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Posting this right before you immediately invoked strawman on someone else made my day. Never change.

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Thats not a strawman. Thats referencing data thats conducive to the argument.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

---

We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

---

It's true. I unfortunately grew up in a school that did not have the Ten Commandments, so I would either rape or kill a classmate depending on how I was feeling that day. I'm glad today's children will grow up in a better environment.

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we have prominent leftists explicitly stating its okay to steal and murder

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Posting this right before you immediately invoked strawman on someone else made my day. Never change.

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Thats not a strawman. Thats referencing data thats conducive to the argument.

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If you're using Hasan Piker as your leftist standard the argument is worthless from the starting line. Y'all have fun in here though.

Malibu said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Malibu said:

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What in the world does any of that have to do with the government compelling people to hold certain religious beliefs?

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You don't believe this is the government compelling people to believe the claims of Christianity though.

What do you actually think? It seems to me you're fine with encouraging some behavior that flows from religious precepts, but not with the religious precepts themselves. That's incoherent.

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It's not incoherent at all to acknowledge what different faiths, Roman Emperors, Founding fathers, etc. have said about the character and how to comport oneself, and to form a curriculum of civic virtue around all of those. I am saying that the backbone of that curriculum should not be The 10 commandments and the sermon on the mount. I am saying that those would be included holistically.

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Social mores aren't conjured out of thin air absent religious beliefs, and history doesn't happen in a vacuum. It doesn't matter which civilization you appeal to, you're still promulgating norms that align with your religious preferences for how society should be run. The fact that you just want to borrow from different faiths and mush them together doesn't make it any less true or more inclusive.

Silent For Too Long said:

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twelve12twelve said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Rubicante said:

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Ah, back to the old tired talking point of "you can't have people who can resist raping and murdering each other without religion". That train is sometimes late, but it always arrives!

---

We have prominent leftists explicitly stating that its okay to steal and murder.

I would say you have emphatically lost this argument at this point. Kind of shocking you would attempt to double down on it.

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So laws don't mean anything at all? We need to also be subservient to 10 extra special commands too?

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Another strawman.

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Convenient. Lol

Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

Malibu said:

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Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

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Christianity is a philosophy. It's a distinction without a difference. You appeal to a materialist view of the universe. It's not clear to me why that would preclude the 10 commandments in the classroom, but both make claims about what the good is. Why should we subscribe to your view?

Ag98and03 said:

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Don't forget- post the 10 Commandments in school.

While also accusing the Catholic church and the Pope of being too liberal.

Make it make sense!

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What has the pope got to do with the 10 commandments?

Dan Carlin said:

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Fundies pimping their religious beliefs over a captive audience of children. What could possibly go wrong.

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This is exactly what the crazy islamics do. And we have some folks who want to do the same here.

Malibu said:

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Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

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Agree with you 100%

That's why they hate Christianity so much. It's antithetical to all of their beliefs and stands between them an tyranny.

infinity ag said:

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Malibu said:

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Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

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Agree with you 100%

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If I grant there's an epistemological difference between philosophy and religion (I guess if you reject the metaphysical you'd say they're ontologically different), y'all can't advance the ball. If I'm a thomist or subscribe to Aristotelian metaphysics, and you're a stoic there are different implications and inferences that come from those about how we should behave in society.

People like to believe in the perspicuity of morality. We want Christian ethics without the Christianity. It doesn't work that way.

Bob Lee said:

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infinity ag said:

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Malibu said:

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Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

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Agree with you 100%

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If I grant there's an epistemological difference between philosophy and religion (I guess if you reject the metaphysical you'd say they're ontologically different), y'all can't advance the ball. If I'm a thomist or subscribe to Aristotelian metaphysics, and you're a stoic there are different implications and inferences that come from those about how we should behave in society.

People like to believe in the perspicuity of morality. We want Christian ethics without the Christianity. It doesn't work that way.

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It absolutely does.


You do not get to decide how people choose to learn and apply their morality. Hope that helps.

4 said:

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Just like their father, they are evil and narcissistic and self lovers who hate God.

That's why

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There has never been a truer statement. The more you try to figure out how a person can think they way they do the more you arrive at this exact conclusion. There simply is no other explanation.

Anonymous Source said:

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I'm against the 10 commandments in schools because seemingly all of the politicians who insisted they be there are in violation of nearly all of them

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Ummm, that applies to every human on earth.

Radical left lunatics are literally trying to kill our Christian president and cabinet. This is their ultimate Marxist goal. To erase the Christian underpinning that our nation has had for the past 250 years. So yes, the commandments do need to be in our classrooms. Kids need to also be quizzed on them regularly if we ever want to get this country back to where it used to be.

twelve12twelve said:

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Bob Lee said:

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infinity ag said:

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Malibu said:

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Moral norms do not only come from religion. A lot of them also come from philosophy and human experience. Stoicism is a good example. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is something I'd absolutely include in character education, and that's not rooted in a religious system. And even if some values overlap with religious traditions, that still doesn't mean the state should endorse a specific religious source as authoritative.

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Agree with you 100%

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If I grant there's an epistemological difference between philosophy and religion (I guess if you reject the metaphysical you'd say they're ontologically different), y'all can't advance the ball. If I'm a thomist or subscribe to Aristotelian metaphysics, and you're a stoic there are different implications and inferences that come from those about how we should behave in society.

People like to believe in the perspicuity of morality. We want Christian ethics without the Christianity. It doesn't work that way.

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It absolutely does.


You do not get to decide how people choose to learn and apply their morality. Hope that helps.

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Who gets to choose? You?