Deerdude said:

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IIIHorn said:

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By the time this project is complete, it will be obsolete.

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You see, that's the sheer genius of this project. As long as it's not completed, it can not be obsolete.

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Doh!

IIIHorn said:

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SigAg6 said:

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IIIHorn said:

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SigAg6 said:

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I took a high speed train in Europe and it was awesome! I wish we had that here. I've heard Amtrak is terrible, but I've reverted tried it.

---

I agree.

I travelled on one out of Madrid.

By far the highest velocity I have experienced without being airborne.

---

The one I took was Lisbon to Porto. It didn't feel super fast, but it was on time, clean, and relatively easy. My "first class" ticket was maybe 30 dollars. I think they are going to buld one that is faster. As far as it being profitable or a burden on taxpayers there, I have no clue. They are a poor country, but it was a good experience. Less stressful than flying.

---

My trip was Madrid to Seville. First Class, max speed 300 km/hr (187 mph), inexpensive tickets and terminals that are much easier to deal with than airports.

---

Spanish flew?

IIIHorn said:

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Deerdude said:

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IIIHorn said:

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By the time this project is complete, it will be obsolete.

---

You see, that's the sheer genius of this project. As long as it's not completed, it can not be obsolete.

---

Doh!

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Also, if it never completes. The funding never ends!!!

Ag98and03 said:

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Posts like this perpetuate the outrage addiction cycle, but provide no solutions.[

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There isn't a problem to solve. This isn't a place for government.

I rode trains in Italy. They were effective there. They are also FAR cheaper than this California idiocy and Italy is quite small compared to major U.S. states.

Vestal_Flame said:

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High-speed trains between cities work, if and only if there are 4 conditions:

1.) Rock sold public transit systems to solve the last mile problem.
2.) Dense urban cores
3.) Small distances between cities
4.) Taxpayers who want to pay through the nose to subsidize the whole mess.

With respect to condition 3, the Dallas-Houston distance is at the maximum for which the idea works well for business travel. It's effectively the same as the Brussels-London trip. The difference, of course, is that Dallas and Houston lack the public transit in the last mile, the dense urban cores, and the taxpayers who want to pay through the nose to subsidize the whole mess.

I say this as someone who has enjoyed extremely positive rail travel experiences in the UK, Italy, France, Belgium, and Germany. I've even used the Acela and the Hiawatha on work trips. The only place in America where the math (sort of) works is the Boston-DC corridor.

---

I've been told that when this thing was initially proposed... Remember, this one has been bouncing around for over 20 years, the early to mid double-oughts.

First adoption HSR in the US would get FRA times and the written around that particular system. The Texas one, being a Japanese design, is incompatible with any of the other HSR in the world. This is/was about marketing. This was about a route that is relatively flat with the fewer landowners with cheap land possible.

Well that land has all more than doubled or even tripled since then. Well ex l with exception for tracts whose value has depressed due to lingering concerns held by future buyers.

EX TEXASEX said:

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IIIHorn said:

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Deerdude said:

---

IIIHorn said:

---

By the time this project is complete, it will be obsolete.

---

You see, that's the sheer genius of this project. As long as it's not completed, it can not be obsolete.

---

Doh!

---

Also, if it never completes. The funding never ends!!!

---

Doh! X 2

Airfares averaged 13.8 cents per passenger-mile in 2019.7 By comparison, Amtrak (the only operator of intercity passenger trains in the United States) fares averaged 35 cents per passenger-mile while fares on Amtrak's high-speed Acela were more than 90 cents per passenger-mile.8

Brightline appears to be charging $0.25/passenger mile in Florida.

So, back of the envelope, it looks like train travel is about 2x-5x as expensive as flight. To the extent that we need to move twice as many people between Dallas and Houston in 2050, we need runways, rather than rail.

deddog said:

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Mega Lops said:

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It's insane people in Texas actually wanted to do something like this.

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There's nothing wrong with high speed rail, *IF* you can make it commercially viable.

Want high speed rail, and you think you can make it commercially viable?
Go for it.

But no taxpayer money.

---

And NO eminent domain to get the land.

Blaine the Train.

YouBet said:

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We are about to go full blown self driving cars on highways and these morons are still pursuing this fantasy.

Trains!!!! By god we will have trains!!! Never seen such a devotion to a mode that is a financial money pit and obsolete. But it is a Democrat fantasy, so I guess that makes sense in that regard.

---

This is how you know it's all a grift. We are maybe 5 years away from self driving cars being fully unsupervised (less if gov gets out of the way). Those cars will drive on roads that already exist, and they will greatly reduce traffic because most traffic issues are caused by idiots. Oh and they will be electric which used to be the liberal wet dream…. But they aren't trains and most of them will be from a company the liberals now hate for whatever reason. In response let's keep pushing these idiotic trains because idiot leftists went To Germany once

DavysApprentice said:

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YouBet said:

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We are about to go full blown self driving cars on highways and these morons are still pursuing this fantasy.

Trains!!!! By god we will have trains!!! Never seen such a devotion to a mode that is a financial money pit and obsolete. But it is a Democrat fantasy, so I guess that makes sense in that regard.

---

This is how you know it's all a grift. We are maybe 5 years away from self driving cars being fully unsupervised (less if gov gets out of the way). Those cars will drive on roads that already exist, and they will greatly reduce traffic because most traffic issues are caused by idiots. Oh and they will be electric which used to be the liberal wet dream…. But they aren't trains and most of them will be from a company the liberals now hate for whatever reason. In response let's keep pushing these idiotic trains because idiot leftists went To Germany once

---

Not just that, but AI is going to make a daily drive to work obsolete, too. Even LESS traffic to worry about.

Ag98and03 said:

---

Posts like this perpetuate the outrage addiction cycle, but provide no solutions.

What is the problem they are attempting to solve?

What is a viable solution to fix it?

Switch the mindset and bring solutions to the table. Real, actionable, data driven solutions.

---

You have highlighted why this entire project is laughable. They (the government, who is here 'to help') are building something that in their mind, is answering the questions you have asked. The issue is that they have built a solution for a problem that does not exist.

Individuals on TexAgs should not be answering the questions, the leaders of California should be answering these questions. They don't and just continue to say they need more money.

Vestal_Flame said:

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Brightline appears to be charging $0.25/passenger mile in Florida.

---

Is that the line that goes from Miami to Orlando? For tourists to visit Miami before (or after) going to Disney World, Universal, etc. theme parks? Seems like that would be a built-in large passenger load.

DavysApprentice said:

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YouBet said:

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We are about to go full blown self driving cars on highways and these morons are still pursuing this fantasy.

Trains!!!! By god we will have trains!!! Never seen such a devotion to a mode that is a financial money pit and obsolete. But it is a Democrat fantasy, so I guess that makes sense in that regard.

---

This is how you know it's all a grift. We are maybe 5 years away from self driving cars being fully unsupervised (less if gov gets out of the way). Those cars will drive on roads that already exist, and they will greatly reduce traffic because most traffic issues are caused by idiots. Oh and they will be electric which used to be the liberal wet dream…. But they aren't trains and most of them will be from a company the liberals now hate for whatever reason. In response let's keep pushing these idiotic trains because idiot leftists went To Germany once

---

It's easier than that.

1. Run by Cali
2. Hundreds of billions of dollars

Conclusion = grift

****ing scumbags.

HSR in Texas is idiocy for all the reasons already posted.

Hell, the suburbs are pulling out of DART in Dallas so it's about to fail on top of downtown being in end stage failure.

And it's obsolete tech. FSD renders it moot. Would you rather be in the privacy of your FSD vehicle or with the masses on a train?

techno-ag said:

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IIIHorn said:

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SigAg6 said:

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IIIHorn said:

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SigAg6 said:

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I took a high speed train in Europe and it was awesome! I wish we had that here. I've heard Amtrak is terrible, but I've reverted tried it.

---

I agree.

I travelled on one out of Madrid.

By far the highest velocity I have experienced without being airborne.

---

The one I took was Lisbon to Porto. It didn't feel super fast, but it was on time, clean, and relatively easy. My "first class" ticket was maybe 30 dollars. I think they are going to buld one that is faster. As far as it being profitable or a burden on taxpayers there, I have no clue. They are a poor country, but it was a good experience. Less stressful than flying.

---

My trip was Madrid to Seville. First Class, max speed 300 km/hr (187 mph), inexpensive tickets and terminals that are much easier to deal with than airports.

---

Spanish flew?

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And techno-ag plays the Reverse Uno card on IIIHorn...

Ag with kids said:

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techno-ag said:

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IIIHorn said:

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SigAg6 said:

---

IIIHorn said:

---

SigAg6 said:

---

I took a high speed train in Europe and it was awesome! I wish we had that here. I've heard Amtrak is terrible, but I've reverted tried it.

---

I agree.

I travelled on one out of Madrid.

By far the highest velocity I have experienced without being airborne.

---

The one I took was Lisbon to Porto. It didn't feel super fast, but it was on time, clean, and relatively easy. My "first class" ticket was maybe 30 dollars. I think they are going to buld one that is faster. As far as it being profitable or a burden on taxpayers there, I have no clue. They are a poor country, but it was a good experience. Less stressful than flying.

---

My trip was Madrid to Seville. First Class, max speed 300 km/hr (187 mph), inexpensive tickets and terminals that are much easier to deal with than airports.

---

Spanish flew?

---

And techno-ag plays the Reverse Uno card on IIIHorn...

---

Only because I lost my train of thought.

techno-ag said:

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IIIHorn said:

---

SigAg6 said:

---

IIIHorn said:

---

SigAg6 said:

---

I took a high speed train in Europe and it was awesome! I wish we had that here. I've heard Amtrak is terrible, but I've reverted tried it.

---

I agree.

I travelled on one out of Madrid.

By far the highest velocity I have experienced without being airborne.

---

The one I took was Lisbon to Porto. It didn't feel super fast, but it was on time, clean, and relatively easy. My "first class" ticket was maybe 30 dollars. I think they are going to buld one that is faster. As far as it being profitable or a burden on taxpayers there, I have no clue. They are a poor country, but it was a good experience. Less stressful than flying.

---

My trip was Madrid to Seville. First Class, max speed 300 km/hr (187 mph), inexpensive tickets and terminals that are much easier to deal with than airports.

---

Spanish flew?

---

Doh! X 3

Quote:

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idiot leftists went To Germany once

---

DB is actually having some real problems with on-time arrival.

Quote:

---

Is that the line that goes from Miami to Orlando?

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Yes.

Quote:

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DART in Dallas so it's about to fail on top of downtown being in end stage failure.

---

Man, I had a DART experience from hell about a month ago. I was in Dallas for some charity work, and I decided to take DART from my hotel to the DMA.

In 2002, I was a regular DART user, and I really liked the experience. There were affluent people on the trains. In 2026, it seemed like the trains were a rolling crack den. I was shocked by the deterioration of the ridership. Admittedly, I had been gone for a quarter of a century, but I had totally not seen this coming. I was shocked at (1) the physical condition of the system and (2) the condition of the riders.

I took an uber back from DMA to my hotel. I use public transit in Chicago, DC, and NY, without much hesitation in broad daylight. This really rattled me.

In all fairness they didn't actually spend a lot on the train. Much of the budget was siphoned off and used to payoff friends of the elected....who then turn around and give a portion back to the elected.

EX TEXASEX said:

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Every single mass transit system on the planet bleeds money, except Japan. China always brags, and their Western-based useful idiots always talk about how China leads the world in high-speed rail and we should have that. China State Railways is losing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars a month, not to mention the 1 TRILLION debt they have to service for creating the financial disaster. People think CA. High-speed trains are expensive now; just wait till they work!!

---

Japan doesn't lose money, because they weren't factoring the costs to build the original bullet train network - I remember researching this back in 2008 when all the democrat folks on here were touting how high speed rail is the answer to all our evils, and that the project would be a grand success.

deddog said:

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EX TEXASEX said:

---

Every single mass transit system on the planet bleeds money, except Japan. China always brags, and their Western-based useful idiots always talk about how China leads the world in high-speed rail and we should have that. China State Railways is losing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars a month, not to mention the 1 TRILLION debt they have to service for creating the financial disaster. People think CA. High-speed trains are expensive now; just wait till they work!!

---

Japan doesn't lose money, because they weren't factoring the costs to build the original bullet train network - I remember researching this back in 2008 when all the democrat folks on here were touting how high speed rail is the answer to all our evils, and that the project would be a grand success.

---

Also, let's not forget about the population density of Japan.

Tokyo is like taking the entire population of California and cramming them into Houston.

I've ridden the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka a few times and the other thing hinted at in this thread is that once you get where you're going there is an extensive local train network. Tokyo for instance has like 4 different levels of local trains.

HollywoodBQ said:

---

deddog said:

---

EX TEXASEX said:

---

Every single mass transit system on the planet bleeds money, except Japan. China always brags, and their Western-based useful idiots always talk about how China leads the world in high-speed rail and we should have that. China State Railways is losing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars a month, not to mention the 1 TRILLION debt they have to service for creating the financial disaster. People think CA. High-speed trains are expensive now; just wait till they work!!

---

Japan doesn't lose money, because they weren't factoring the costs to build the original bullet train network - I remember researching this back in 2008 when all the democrat folks on here were touting how high speed rail is the answer to all our evils, and that the project would be a grand success.

---

Also, let's not forget about the population density of Japan.

Tokyo is like taking the entire population of California and cramming them into Houston.

I've ridden the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka a few times and the other thing hinted at in this thread is that once you get where you're going there is an extensive local train network. Tokyo for instance has like 4 different levels of local trains.

---

Democrats desperately want the US to be this dense despite it not being realistic. There is an entire strategic policy around this, yet we are one of the least dense countries on the planet.

But just like them wanting communism right now despite the reality of Economics 101, they also want trains right now despite the reality that we aren't dense enough to support it.

It's also no longer relevant with self-driving capabilities becoming ubiquitous in the next five years or so. That will occur long before any HSR can be built anywhere in this country. And once you have FSD the obvious next development will be automated traffic management. That's a separate issue we can debate on another thread.

YouBet said:

---

HollywoodBQ said:

---

deddog said:

---

EX TEXASEX said:

---

Every single mass transit system on the planet bleeds money, except Japan. China always brags, and their Western-based useful idiots always talk about how China leads the world in high-speed rail and we should have that. China State Railways is losing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars a month, not to mention the 1 TRILLION debt they have to service for creating the financial disaster. People think CA. High-speed trains are expensive now; just wait till they work!!

---

Japan doesn't lose money, because they weren't factoring the costs to build the original bullet train network - I remember researching this back in 2008 when all the democrat folks on here were touting how high speed rail is the answer to all our evils, and that the project would be a grand success.

---

Also, let's not forget about the population density of Japan.

Tokyo is like taking the entire population of California and cramming them into Houston.

I've ridden the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka a few times and the other thing hinted at in this thread is that once you get where you're going there is an extensive local train network. Tokyo for instance has like 4 different levels of local trains.

---

Democrats desperately want the US to be this dense despite it not being realistic. There is an entire strategic policy around this, yet we are one of the least dense countries on the planet.

But just like them wanting communism right now despite the reality of Economics 101, they also want trains right now despite the reality that we aren't dense enough to support it.

It's also no longer relevant with self-driving capabilities becoming ubiquitous in the next five years or so. That will occur long before any HSR can be built anywhere in this country. And once you have FSD the obvious next development will be automated traffic management. That's a separate issue we can debate on another thread.

---

I totally agree that Dems want us to live in a Judge Dredd like - Mega City One surrounded by wasteland.

FSD doesn't solve the bulk shipment problem, nor the speed & distance problem.

Even if we just use the simple use case of Dallas-Houston-San Antonio-Austin-Dallas

As someone mentioned earlier, they're not going to make I-45 12 lanes wide. And if you had 1,000 people who wanted to go from Houston to Dallas in 90 minutes, you're not going to send somebody's Tesla rocketing down the motorway at 200 mph. So, airplanes are reality and high speed trains remain a dream.

At least in Texas, you don't have earthquakes unlike California where they happen daily. Of course in Texas, we do get hurricanes in Houston and tornadoes near Dallas.

High Speed rail continues to be a pipe dream that doesn't make any sense other than its use as yet another Democrat money laundering program.

plain_o_llama said:

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One might see some comparisons between California and Springfield.

---

HollywoodBQ said:

---

YouBet said:

---

HollywoodBQ said:

---

deddog said:

---

EX TEXASEX said:

---

Every single mass transit system on the planet bleeds money, except Japan. China always brags, and their Western-based useful idiots always talk about how China leads the world in high-speed rail and we should have that. China State Railways is losing BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars a month, not to mention the 1 TRILLION debt they have to service for creating the financial disaster. People think CA. High-speed trains are expensive now; just wait till they work!!

---

Japan doesn't lose money, because they weren't factoring the costs to build the original bullet train network - I remember researching this back in 2008 when all the democrat folks on here were touting how high speed rail is the answer to all our evils, and that the project would be a grand success.

---

Also, let's not forget about the population density of Japan.

Tokyo is like taking the entire population of California and cramming them into Houston.

I've ridden the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka a few times and the other thing hinted at in this thread is that once you get where you're going there is an extensive local train network. Tokyo for instance has like 4 different levels of local trains.

---

Democrats desperately want the US to be this dense despite it not being realistic. There is an entire strategic policy around this, yet we are one of the least dense countries on the planet.

But just like them wanting communism right now despite the reality of Economics 101, they also want trains right now despite the reality that we aren't dense enough to support it.

It's also no longer relevant with self-driving capabilities becoming ubiquitous in the next five years or so. That will occur long before any HSR can be built anywhere in this country. And once you have FSD the obvious next development will be automated traffic management. That's a separate issue we can debate on another thread.

---

I totally agree that Dems want us to live in a Judge Dredd like - Mega City One surrounded by wasteland.

FSD doesn't solve the bulk shipment problem, nor the speed & distance problem.

Even if we just use the simple use case of Dallas-Houston-San Antonio-Austin-Dallas

As someone mentioned earlier, they're not going to make I-45 12 lanes wide. And if you had 1,000 people who wanted to go from Houston to Dallas in 90 minutes, you're not going to send somebody's Tesla rocketing down the motorway at 200 mph. So, airplanes are reality and high speed trains remain a dream.

At least in Texas, you don't have earthquakes unlike California where they happen daily. Of course in Texas, we do get hurricanes in Houston and tornadoes near Dallas.

High Speed rail continues to be a pipe dream that doesn't make any sense other than its use as yet another Democrat money laundering program.

---

Depends. FSD is being tested with trucking right now on TX highways. You are always going to need all 4 modes (now 5 with drones if you want to count that separate from air) for cargo moves depending on commodity being moved and speed at which you need to move it, but trucking as a mode could at least get partially automated in not-so-distant future.

Zero reason why rail and maybe ocean couldn't get automated as well. Especially rail. Air effectively already is; it's just the psychology of it and you still want human oversight for outlier scenarios.

I just dont understand using lack of urban density to reject rail, while saying we need more plane routes. I also dont get the taxpayer argument. Airlines have to be constantly bailed out, airports are funded by taxpayers. Highways are built by tax payers. Thats what makes it infrastructure.

I would take a train to Houston for work probably twice a month instead of trying to perfectly time meetings to reduce traffic or deal with the disaster SWA has become (not to mention that houstons airports couldn't be less conveniently located).

Dallas to houston is almost the exact same distance as Orlando to Miami and Brightline is doing the direct trains in just under 3 Hours. I would take it every time knowing that you save some time and can get some work done, but most importantly you remove the 20% of the time where you have an extra 45 minutes in traffic

Ag98and03 said:

---

Posts like this perpetuate the outrage addiction cycle, but provide no solutions.

What is the problem they are attempting to solve?

What is a viable solution to fix it?

Switch the mindset and bring solutions to the table. Real, actionable, data driven solutions.

---

It is a solution in search of a problem, As many have said, hello Southwest Airlines,

SigAg6 said:

---

IIIHorn said:

---

SigAg6 said:

---

I took a high speed train in Europe and it was awesome! I wish we had that here. I've heard Amtrak is terrible, but I've reverted tried it.

---

I agree.

I travelled on one out of Madrid.

By far the highest velocity I have experienced without being airborne.

---

The one I took was Lisbon to Porto. It didn't feel super fast, but it was on time, clean, and relatively easy. My "first class" ticket was maybe 30 dollars. I think they are going to buld one that is faster. As far as it being profitable or a burden on taxpayers there, I have no clue. They are a poor country, but it was a good experience. Less stressful than flying.

---

Now imagine it was Spirit Airlines.

Long-mile passenger rail will never work in America. I say this as a 40 year worker in the rail system

Even if we had plain old commuter rail from Dallas to Houston, we could get there in 3.5 hours. I'd take that.

fc2112 said:

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Even if we had plain old commuter rail from Dallas to Houston, we could get there in 3.5 hours. I'd take that.

---

In 1955 I would have agreed with you. Today you would be in danger of rape, murder or just 5 people on meth that you could not get away from because you are on a train car with no possibility of exit until the next stop.

I'm not saying this to get votes, I'm saying this as someone who has experienced these things (the meth part, not yet murder or rape) on Marta going from ATL to the north suburbs of Atlanta. Politicians, and I suppose us, have allowed America to become a hellscape in many regions. If you believe otherwise, you don't get out much.

I'll take my truck and my .38 wherever I need to go. I fly for work and to get overseas, otherwise I am def not taking a train.

I believe in reality, not in romantic beliefs.

fc2112 said:

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Even if we had plain old commuter rail from Dallas to Houston, we could get there in 3.5 hours. I'd take that.

---

I would not. I live in Galveston and have been making periodic trips to Dallas to visit a friend struggling with a medical situation.

First, I'd have to park my car somewhere in Houston to board the train, unless I could bring my car with me.
When I get to Dallas, I'd need to rent a car.

The car transition parking, renting, etc., would take let's say 15-30 minutes on each side - assuming it all works as expected.

Plus, even if the train stations were as efficient as Japan, you'd need another 10 minutes or so just to navigate the train station.

Meanwhile, I can make it from Galveston to Dallas in less than 5 hours driving my own car.

Would it be nice to sit back and relax during the journey and chill out on a train? That would be nice. But, to make it all worthwhile from a time savings perspective, that trip needs to happen closer to 200 mph, versus the 80+ mph I can do in my own car.