Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

For some people, as long as Mystic carries on it is okay. The comparisons to Bonfire are spot on.

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And until you lose a kid I would be very careful about saying "Carpe Diem" until it happens to you. God bless..
When you go on a camp out or whatever, you are in control, correct?
We had no control over what happened to Mary Grace. And there were 3 adults for over 700 girls.
Carpe Diem?

I'm at a loss for words. The insensitivity on this thread is astounding.

Kaa98 said:

---

I'm at a loss for words. The insensitivity on this thread is astounding.

---

As long as Mysic can continue and our girls can experience it, everything is okay. Well my girl is dead. And 26 other girls lost their lives due to negligence. But let's just move forward.
The blindness to reality is surreal.

Kaa98 said:

---

I'm at a loss for words. The insensitivity on this thread is astounding.

---

Thankfully they did not lose a girl. So Mystic to them is more important.

dermdoc said:

---

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

---

Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

Why is it so hard to say Mystic was negligent?

dermdoc said:

---

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

---

Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

---

Fair enough.
If the timeline showed there was over an hour an hour or two to respond and two camp counselors went three times to the owner and he said stay put. And they disobeyed and the ones who obeyed died, is that negligence?
If you lived in a flood plane and your entire "plan" is stay in your cabins and we will tell you what to do" is that negligence?

---

No, that doesn't seem like negligence to me. If you live in a floodplain and your structure is elevated well above minimum code requirements, it seems reasonable to me to shelter in place unless there is an evacuation order from local officials.

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

---

Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

---

Fair enough.
If the timeline showed there was over an hour an hour or two to respond and two camp counselors went three times to the owner and he said stay put. And they disobeyed and the ones who obeyed died, is that negligence?
If you lived in a flood plane and your entire "plan" is stay in your cabins and we will tell you what to do" is that negligence?

---

No, that doesn't seem like negligence to me. If you live in a floodplain and your structure is elevated well above minimum code requirements, it seems reasonable to me to shelter in place unless there is an evacuation order from local officials.

---

Are you an 8 y/o girl?

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

---

Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

---

Fair enough.
If the timeline showed there was over an hour an hour or two to respond and two camp counselors went three times to the owner and he said stay put. And they disobeyed and the ones who obeyed died, is that negligence?
If you lived in a flood plane and your entire "plan" is stay in your cabins and we will tell you what to do" is that negligence?

---

No, that doesn't seem like negligence to me. If you live in a floodplain and your structure is elevated well above minimum code requirements, it seems reasonable to me to shelter in place unless there is an evacuation order from local officials.

---

If your plan for a flood says there will be radios in each cabin for communication and you don't supply the radios, are you negligent? You had a plan (however sparse and inadequate it was) and you didn't follow the plan. Was that negligent? I think so. But I guess others could disagree.

This isn't the thread for this conversation. There is another thread to discuss who was at fault. https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3552957/1#discussion

Maybe it's been completely lost but posting from the first post on first page of thread.

[This thread was a resource for people during the flood and the days and weeks after it was over. We did not allow this thread to derail into arguments about who was at fault and we do not want that to happen now. If posters want to discuss the legal issues, lawsuits, hearings, or depositions we ask that another thread be started or poster submit on existing threads other than this. We do not want to ruin what the spirit of this thread was during that time. Thank you for your assistance. -Staff]

Seems like we should still be able to have a respectful conversation about Mystic. La Junta, Guadulupe River, etc. without derailing thread.

txags92 said:

---

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

mcsatx said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Alta said:

---

Kaa98 said:

---

Alta said:

---

It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

---

Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

---

Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

---

And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

---

Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

---

Fair enough.
If the timeline showed there was over an hour an hour or two to respond and two camp counselors went three times to the owner and he said stay put. And they disobeyed and the ones who obeyed died, is that negligence?
If you lived in a flood plane and your entire "plan" is stay in your cabins and we will tell you what to do" is that negligence?

---

No, that doesn't seem like negligence to me. If you live in a floodplain and your structure is elevated well above minimum code requirements, it seems reasonable to me to shelter in place unless there is an evacuation order from local officials.

---

If your plan for a flood says there will be radios in each cabin for communication and you don't supply the radios, are you negligent? You had a plan (however sparse and inadequate it was) and you didn't follow the plan. Was that negligent? I think so. But I guess others could disagree.

---

I don't have a legal background so don't know the ins and outs on negligence, but I guess that would depend on if the lack of radios contributed to the outcome. But let's say they had radios and everyone made it to Rec Hall. There is also a potential the upper catwalk could have collapsed from the combination of the weight of the girls and the lateral flood forces. The attached picture appears to be one cabin (about 18 girls) on the catwalk. I think 5 out of 11 cabins made it to Rec Hall. Could it have held twice as many girls? Idk

Does the existence of the upper catwalk make Mystic negligent for not getting all the girls to Rec Hall? This 1000-year flood filled the Rec Hall with about 7 feet of water and it was just by luck that there was an upper catwalk to go to. I don't think that it was ever imagined to be used in that way. Had the catwalk not been there and there was an even greater loss of life, would they be less negligent?

The better conversation now is with what we learned from this event how do we make these camps, homes and entire region safer moving forward. In today's society, it would be a shocker if Mystic wasn't found negligent from a legal standpoint. It's posssible but if you saw some of the situations where entities/people are found negligent it would blow your mind. It's why tort reform is badly needed in this State (and that statement has nothing to do with this situation).

But again - the real conversation is how do we take information from this event and rethink safety procedures/protocols in the region. We learned things this summer that need to be implemented to make these camps region safer.

Kaa98 said:

---

I'm at a loss for words. The insensitivity on this thread is astounding.

---

I had a similar thought, but it was more based on a lack of empathy. You probably hit closer to the mark.

dermdoc said:

---

DoodleTX said:

---

https://www.khou.com/article/news/state/texas-news/texas-flood/camp-mystic-camper-family-letter/285-54a20d10-26f3-4e4c-9dc2-ba0391e88aa3?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_KHOU_11_News&fbclid=IwdGRjcANCg4lleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHq6ql3jsWY38KFHneIy806AEWlhtp0hPyMfRbwh5o9P1cqyp8dQmkFDdEbHU_aem_v2y8_hNUnQFKEBLRlTdIqw#ok7d8m9qzgt2g82y1m7m8ch3025vozj.

---

Thanks. I had it but was told to hold off yesterday. There are only 2 options. Camp Mystic and its owners are not good people or they are receiving horrible legal advice.
Until they realize the deaths of these girls due to their negligence is more important than the re opening of Mystic nothing will change.
And they seem to not understand that.

---

Evil is a big word, but, I'll say I don't know how any moral person would follow the actions of the Mystic group. Their actions are an afront to decency amd any other you want to assign. I'm disgusted by their cold actions. Shame on them.

dermdoc said:

---

And Lajunta did everything right. I know some of their leadership and they are top notch,

---

I think it is important to analyze the specifics of the situation rather than just the outcome.

The La Junta owner testified that he and his wife were awake in their house but did not do anything until they saw a dining hall table floating across the field. He said they left their house around 4:10-4:15am which would have been no more than 30 minutes before the flood peaked at La Junta.

He also testified that they did not receive the NWS flash flood warning at 1:14am but if they had received the warning they wouldn't have evacuated cabins. He did say that they would evacuate in the future after an NWS warning, knowing what they know now.

He also testified that they had an overnight security guard that was on duty but that person did not report the flooding to anyone.

I am still praying for all that were impacted. It is very clear that there is a need to pray for those who are in constant agony over this tragedy. Prayers for those who lead summer camps. Prayers for all of the parents and family members. Prayers for the campers struggling each day with horrifying memories. My heart is broken for all of you.

missinAggieland said:

---

I am still praying for all that were impacted. It is very clear that there is a need to pray for those who are in constant agony over this tragedy. Prayers for those who lead summer camps. Prayers for all of the parents and family members. Prayers for the campers struggling each day with horrifying memories. My heart is broken for all of you.

---

It remains gut wrenching. Still praying for Cile and her family.

mcsatx said:

---

txags92 said:

---

mcsatx said:

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dermdoc said:

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mcsatx said:

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dermdoc said:

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Alta said:

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Kaa98 said:

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Alta said:

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It was always going to be controversial/painful whether it be now or in years for Mystic to open. I do know that many families want it to reopen and are glad that as of now that appears to be the case (can always change). Lots of people have sent Tweety and the Eastlands letters stating such over the past couple of months. Nobody has to send their daughter to Mystic if they are uncomfortable doing so. And the location that is opening next summer is not on the Guadalupe.

Our daughter is so happy to be able to hug her camp friends, hug Tweety and hopefully enjoy a place that is very special to her. That means something to me as her dad. And I know many families that feel the same. And that doesn't diminish how much pain we feel for people who lost a child/loved ones. We see people who did daily and do our best to continue and shower them with as much love as possible. And I know at least one of these families thinks it's a good thing that Mystic is reopening.

Life is hard. Horrible horrible things happen in this world on a daily basis. This was the most tragic event that ever affected our community and family. But through horrible things you have to keep moving forward. Learn, pray, be better but never stop moving forward.

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Here's to hoping that you don't lose your daughter(s) or loved ones next year.

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Thank you. I hope not either. But I'll continue to encourage my daughters, sons (who will also attend camp nearby again) to be in nature where nature might win. Just like it won up and down the Guadalupe where 117 people lost their life due to Mother Nature. I'm assuming nobodies saying to shut down peoples ability to be near the Guadulupe.

The best things in the world involve a higher degree of risk. Rivers, lakes, mountains, etc. More than ever I realize how short live can be and encourage everybody I know to not take any days for granted.

Carpe Diem

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And here is the problem. You will not admit they lost their lives to negligence. And I pray your kids do not lose their lives due to negligence.
And I know all about Mother Nature, acts of God. Etc, This was not that. There was ample time to save everyone.
i wish Mary Grace could say Carpe Diem. And the lack of sensitivity is really astounding. But you be you.

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Is there some point where mother nature will still overcome better planning, training, and execution? For example, let's hypothetically say a similar tragedy occurred at a different camp.

Let's say the cabins at that camp were located outside the 100-year floodplain and the cabin floors were elevated at least 3 feet above the 100-year flood elevation. Let's say that camp received an NWS flash flood warning in the middle of the night and immediately evacuated everyone to a large single-story building outside the 100-year floodplain with the floor elevated 7.5 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

And let's say a 1,000 (one thousand) year flood occurred a few hours later which resulted in that building being filled with water 7 feet deep, likely killing most of the occupants in the building.

Would that camp be negligent? (hypothetically)

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Fair enough.
If the timeline showed there was over an hour an hour or two to respond and two camp counselors went three times to the owner and he said stay put. And they disobeyed and the ones who obeyed died, is that negligence?
If you lived in a flood plane and your entire "plan" is stay in your cabins and we will tell you what to do" is that negligence?

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No, that doesn't seem like negligence to me. If you live in a floodplain and your structure is elevated well above minimum code requirements, it seems reasonable to me to shelter in place unless there is an evacuation order from local officials.

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If your plan for a flood says there will be radios in each cabin for communication and you don't supply the radios, are you negligent? You had a plan (however sparse and inadequate it was) and you didn't follow the plan. Was that negligent? I think so. But I guess others could disagree.

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I don't have a legal background so don't know the ins and outs on negligence, but I guess that would depend on if the lack of radios contributed to the outcome. But let's say they had radios and everyone made it to Rec Hall. There is also a potential the upper catwalk could have collapsed from the combination of the weight of the girls and the lateral flood forces. The attached picture appears to be one cabin (about 18 girls) on the catwalk. I think 5 out of 11 cabins made it to Rec Hall. Could it have held twice as many girls? Idk

Does the existence of the upper catwalk make Mystic negligent for not getting all the girls to Rec Hall? This 1000-year flood filled the Rec Hall with about 7 feet of water and it was just by luck that there was an upper catwalk to go to. I don't think that it was ever imagined to be used in that way. Had the catwalk not been there and there was an even greater loss of life, would they be less negligent?

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I was told by Clarke that there was a hill nearby that all the girls easily could have gone to and been safe. He has no idea why they were told to go to the Rec Hall except they had no plan. Especially with the timeline. There was plenty of time to get everybody to the hill. The problem was is that there was no plan on what to do.

Would you have had a plan if you had a camp with 700 girls under your care by a river that was prone to flood events? Do you think you would be negligent if you had no plan?

I have some Mystic alums in my circle, while they are fantastic human beings, their love for the camp and wish for it to restart as if nothing happened is borderline cult-like. As you said, it is startling to hear some of these thoughts out loud. Take a year or two off, get your house in order etc.

I made a similar post in a different thread but I'll post my thoughts on that here.

It's certainly a tricky thread to post in as I think everybody cares about the families who lost children. Personally, no natural disaster has hit closer to home for our family and kids. And at the same time people still want to have an honest conversation about what transpired and how to best prevent it in the future. For example, I had a family member who died while evacuating from a flood when I was a child. If we just stayed put then he would have lived. That heavily shapes my viewpoint of what I think a reasonable course of action would be in a flood. Doesn't mean my view point is right but it is my viewpoint which I'm and others are allowed to have. Reasonable people can disagree there and on a message board some posts will come across as offensive.

I'm probably considered a "Mystic Defender" which I guess isn't completely inaccurate but doesn't capture what I'm defending. I think I'm a defender of trying to figure out how to best prevent these tragedies from occurring although we will never be successful in doing so as nature will always find a way to do something extreme. Because even with the risks involved I want my kids to experience them and experience people like the Eastlands. In my opinion, when it turns to people only wanted revenge against a family then these places/experiences disappear. Because with hindsight nothing is ever good enough and it's easy to pinpoint well if they just did X.

We need really good people to create great places in this world for children to grow and flourish. More now than ever in the society we are living in. And I unfortunately think that is disappearing as I think a lot of really good people know that no matter how hard they try they can't predict/prevent everything and get turned away from trying.

We unfortunately attended the funerals of 5 of the Mystic girls. And one thing that sticks in my head everyday from the eulogies is that these little girls life's were cut far too short but they were lucky enough to have families who provided them incredible love and experiences. And those all carried heightened risk. Tomorrow is not guaranteed even for our youngest kids and I want to give them the most incredible love and experiences that I'm able to do so.

Long post and I'm not trying to offend anybody. We pray for the Mystic girls and their families everyday, we pray for the Eastlands everyday and yes I pray that places for kids to be kids continue to exist as well. And what that last sentence means can be very different for different people and that should be ok too.

Alta said:

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I made a similar post in a different thread but I'll post my thoughts on that here.

It's certainly a tricky thread to post in as I think everybody cares about the families who lost children. Personally, no natural disaster has hit closer to home for our family and kids. And at the same time people still want to have an honest conversation about what transpired and how to best prevent it in the future. For example, I had a family member who died while evacuating from a flood when I was a child. If we just stayed put then he would have lived. That heavily shapes my viewpoint of what I think a reasonable course of action would be in a flood. Doesn't mean my view point is right but it is my viewpoint which I'm and others are allowed to have. Reasonable people can disagree there and on a message board some posts will come across as offensive.

I'm probably considered a "Mystic Defender" which I guess isn't completely inaccurate but doesn't capture what I'm defending. I think I'm a defender of trying to figure out how to best prevent these tragedies from occurring although we will never be successful in doing so as nature will always find a way to do something extreme. Because even with the risks involved I want my kids to experience them and experience people like the Eastlands. In my opinion, when it turns to people only wanted revenge against a family then these places/experiences disappear. Because with hindsight nothing is ever good enough and it's easy to pinpoint well if they just did X.

We need really good people to create great places in this world for children to grow and flourish. More now than ever in the society we are living in. And I unfortunately think that is disappearing as I think a lot of really good people know that no matter how hard they try they can't predict/prevent everything and get turned away from trying.

We unfortunately attended the funerals of 5 of the Mystic girls. And one thing that sticks in my head everyday from the eulogies is that these little girls life's were cut far too short but they were lucky enough to have families who provided them incredible love and experiences. And those all carried heightened risk. Tomorrow is not guaranteed even for our youngest kids and I want to give them the most incredible love and experiences that I'm able to do so.

Long post and I'm not trying to offend anybody. We pray for the Mystic girls and their families everyday, we pray for the Eastlands everyday and yes I pray that places for kids to be kids continue to exist as well. And what that last sentence means can be very different for different people and that should be ok too.

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Fair enough and I agree you are entitled to your views.
Two questions if it is okay.
Do you think Mystic and the Eastlands were negligent?
Do you agree with how Mystic has handled things since the flood? Especially pertaining to their actions this week?
Thanks.
And will add that the perception of many is that to Mystic and its defenders, re opening the camp seems to be more important than the deaths. It comes across as very insensitive.
And almost like nothing happened. Let's just move on.

Great post, thank you for sharing your thoughts.