Someone must have told grandma bingo was starting early today …. Gotta go !sts7049 said:they're saying it was an elderly person. when grandma gets confused and panics i can see her mashing the gas instead of the brake, its not that unusual.Mathguy64 said:
It's 100 yards and two fences between that parking lot and the valve. I don't see how you accidentally pull that off. And I don't see someone having a medical emergency staying on the accelerator long enough to be that lucky to make it either.
Fire in LaPorte
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I mean, this is probably the first time I can remember even hearing about a pipeline fire caused by a car running off the road and hitting a pressure monitoring station.maroon barchetta said:CDUB98 said:It would take an especially dumb dumbass to hit that valve OR, as cledus posted, a very determined driver.Texaggie7nine said:Seems like it would be a no brainer to put up car stopping barriers around vulnerable exposed pipes that close to a major road.schmellba99 said:The valve station is about 50' off of Spencer Highway with only a chain link fence around it.CDUB98 said:
Finally got Google to let me street view.
Yeah, if some disgruntled former employee or a terrorist ******* wanted to ram a care into the valve station using the matte road, it would be an easy, straight shot.
Could have been an idiot doing 65 and worrying about their instagram and ran off the road or something as simple as that. There isn't anything there that would stop a vehicle that was out of control or whatever.
It like wasn't even brought up in a risk review due to it's location....but probably should have been.
Don't know why they don't have a big pipe bullpen around it.
They probably will go out and install a ton of bollards now, but until now there didn't seem to be a huge need for it probability wise.
Most safety stuff isn't install at the beginning because we thought it would happen.
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
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Is there enough time for me to open a Bollard King franchise?
Maybe approach Matt Bullard and see if he will partner and you can call the company Matt Bullard's Bollards.Milwaukees Best Light said:
Is there enough time for me to open a Bollard King franchise?
7nine
I have a truck and tractor and can buy pipe. Maybe I should do this as a side gig.Dr. Doctor said:
Most safety stuff isn't install at the beginning because we thought it would happen.
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
the problem with bollards is how much weight do you design them to stop? a small car? SUV? big rig?
we evaluated this years ago when a truck ran off our lease road into a gathering line riser. ended up doing nothing as it was such a remote chance already and you cant predict what will hit it.
we evaluated this years ago when a truck ran off our lease road into a gathering line riser. ended up doing nothing as it was such a remote chance already and you cant predict what will hit it.
The bollards we put in at a military base stopped a fire truck. Other facilities we used berms and 10 -12 foot deep posts as the force protection.
Lots of ways to solve the entry problem.
Lots of ways to solve the entry problem.
I like the active vehicle deterrents some DOD installations have with the wires that rip the engine blocks apart.
CowtownAg06 said:
Natural Gas Liquid is not Liquified Natural Gas and not regular Natural Gas. My guess is Ethane.
Ph.D. chemist with 26 years in petrochemical industry. I have no clue. The molecules actually aren't that hard to say. Methane, ethane, propane, butane, ethylene, acetylene, propylene, vinyl chloride...
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
sts7049 said:they're saying it was an elderly person. when grandma gets confused and panics i can see her mashing the gas instead of the brake, its not that unusual.Mathguy64 said:
It's 100 yards and two fences between that parking lot and the valve. I don't see how you accidentally pull that off. And I don't see someone having a medical emergency staying on the accelerator long enough to be that lucky to make it either.
Did they escape? With the amount of heat coming out of that pipeline..if they didn't get out quickly, that was a bad ending for them.
Also, most bollards are placed around access ways and parking areas. I'm not sure what the approach of this car was, but it sounds like it was out of control and not necessarily coming in the direction of the access way. Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
schmellba99 said:I have a truck and tractor and can buy pipe. Maybe I should do this as a side gig.Dr. Doctor said:
Most safety stuff isn't install at the beginning because we thought it would happen.
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
The bollards go in easier when the ground is wet!
Just to be clear, your first post on this thread was an assumption that the operator caused this problem but now that has been proven false you would like to withhold assumptions until we know all the facts.CDUB98 said:Fully agree that is a possibility as well. We simply don't know. It would take a hell of an accidental detour to get from Spencer over to that valve station.schmellba99 said:The valve station is about 50' off of Spencer Highway with only a chain link fence around it.CDUB98 said:
Finally got Google to let me street view.
Yeah, if some disgruntled former employee or a terrorist ******* wanted to ram a care into the valve station using the matte road, it would be an easy, straight shot.
Could have been an idiot doing 65 and worrying about their instagram and ran off the road or something as simple as that. There isn't anything there that would stop a vehicle that was out of control or whatever.
How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
schmellba99 said:I mean, this is probably the first time I can remember even hearing about a pipeline fire caused by a car running off the road and hitting a pressure monitoring station.maroon barchetta said:CDUB98 said:It would take an especially dumb dumbass to hit that valve OR, as cledus posted, a very determined driver.Texaggie7nine said:Seems like it would be a no brainer to put up car stopping barriers around vulnerable exposed pipes that close to a major road.schmellba99 said:The valve station is about 50' off of Spencer Highway with only a chain link fence around it.CDUB98 said:
Finally got Google to let me street view.
Yeah, if some disgruntled former employee or a terrorist ******* wanted to ram a care into the valve station using the matte road, it would be an easy, straight shot.
Could have been an idiot doing 65 and worrying about their instagram and ran off the road or something as simple as that. There isn't anything there that would stop a vehicle that was out of control or whatever.
It like wasn't even brought up in a risk review due to it's location....but probably should have been.
Don't know why they don't have a big pipe bullpen around it.
They probably will go out and install a ton of bollards now, but until now there didn't seem to be a huge need for it probability wise.
During my time in industry I saw lots of pipe bullpens around valve stations and metering stations, even when they were in a pipeline corridor away from everything.
It depends on the operator and if they want to spend the time and money to prepare for something that might never happen.
AgLiving06 said:sts7049 said:they're saying it was an elderly person. when grandma gets confused and panics i can see her mashing the gas instead of the brake, its not that unusual.Mathguy64 said:
It's 100 yards and two fences between that parking lot and the valve. I don't see how you accidentally pull that off. And I don't see someone having a medical emergency staying on the accelerator long enough to be that lucky to make it either.
Did they escape? With the amount of heat coming out of that pipeline..if they didn't get out quickly, that was a bad ending for them.
even if they did get out immediately, the amount of heat that close would probably have killed them anyway
well, they lost a ton of money just in lost product burned as we've all seen on television. Plus repairs to the area. Then you know that lawyers will get involved representing the neighbors with damaged homes and the electrical pole owners. The lawyers will argue that this could've been anticipated with a major road and retail center close by and they didn't install any bollards. Whatever the number winds up being, it's larger than the cost of a few bollards.BowSowy said:How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
I'm sure there will also insurance dollars at play.
And, yeah, probably cheaper than a few bollards. But are you suggesting they should have anticipated this incident at this one location? Otherwise, we're talking a few thousand bollards, minimum.
And, yeah, probably cheaper than a few bollards. But are you suggesting they should have anticipated this incident at this one location? Otherwise, we're talking a few thousand bollards, minimum.
Guess that will be up to their insurance company and the insurance company of the driver.BowSowy said:How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
7nine
minimum liability limits won't cover much
if he or she had insurance at all
if he or she had insurance at all
This will be fought out between insurance legal teams. It has and will continue to give ET unwanted attention.
Comeby! said:
It has and will continue to give ET unwanted attention.
Once the fire is put out and the media drops the story it will be forgotten about.
There HAS to be video footage of the incident.BowSowy said:How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
Bumpy_2112 said:There HAS to be video footage of the incident.BowSowy said:How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
Absolutely. There's a lot of homes and businesses in the area. Somebody's got something.
Bumpy_2112 said:There HAS to be video footage of the incident.BowSowy said:How much is Energy Transfer going to have to shell out if it's proven this incident occurred due to no fault of their own?chico said:bollards would be significantly cheaper than what they're going to shell out after this experience.BowSowy said:
Would be pretty uneconomical to place bollards all the way around all of these valve stations in reaction to a freak event like this.
Why?
Yeah, that's my point. Obviously installing some bollards here would've prevented and saved a lot of money, no **** sherlock. How common is this threat and is it worth installing bollards at all these facilities?htxag09 said:
I'm sure there will also insurance dollars at play.
And, yeah, probably cheaper than a few bollards. But are you suggesting they should have anticipated this incident at this one location? Otherwise, we're talking a few thousand bollards, minimum.
"[The driver] caught our eye because the car was moving so slow as we passed it," witness Sherry Richard told Bozarjian. Sherry's husband, Chad Richard, said the driver appeared to be an elderly woman wearing glasses.
"All I can remember is seeing she was wearing glasses, and we circled around to get a parking spot, and as soon as we got a parking spot, the car just veered off," Chard Richard told Bozarjian.
The driver proceeded to plow through low brush and then the fence on the western side of the Wal-Mart. The vehicle accelerated after reaching flat ground, hitting the pipeline valve and flying up into the air. The explosion occurred after the vehicle touched back down, according to witnesses.
"It hits it, and the cars goes up in the air and back down. And once it hits the ground, it's a boom and there is fire everywhere," Sherry Richard told Bozarjian.
https://www.chron.com/news/article/houston-deer-park-pipeline-fire-19768583.php
"All I can remember is seeing she was wearing glasses, and we circled around to get a parking spot, and as soon as we got a parking spot, the car just veered off," Chard Richard told Bozarjian.
The driver proceeded to plow through low brush and then the fence on the western side of the Wal-Mart. The vehicle accelerated after reaching flat ground, hitting the pipeline valve and flying up into the air. The explosion occurred after the vehicle touched back down, according to witnesses.
"It hits it, and the cars goes up in the air and back down. And once it hits the ground, it's a boom and there is fire everywhere," Sherry Richard told Bozarjian.
https://www.chron.com/news/article/houston-deer-park-pipeline-fire-19768583.php
But equipment gets stuck, and augers can drill through dry ground.maroon barchetta said:schmellba99 said:I have a truck and tractor and can buy pipe. Maybe I should do this as a side gig.Dr. Doctor said:
Most safety stuff isn't install at the beginning because we thought it would happen.
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
The bollards go in easier when the ground is wet!
So back to not needing 300" of rain FTW!!!!
schmellba99 said:But equipment gets stuck, and augers can drill through dry ground.maroon barchetta said:schmellba99 said:I have a truck and tractor and can buy pipe. Maybe I should do this as a side gig.Dr. Doctor said:
Most safety stuff isn't install at the beginning because we thought it would happen.
It is usually installed after something blew up or someone got killed.
But someone is going to make some money on 'upgrading' all the valve and pressure monitoring stations near parking lots and roads now.
~egon
The bollards go in easier when the ground is wet!
So back to not needing 300" of rain FTW!!!!
Even a few thousand bollards is far cheaper than what they will fork out, right or wrong, here. And if they don't and another incident happens - they will be royally fooked because in that event the lawyers will get to talk about willful ignorance on Energy Transfer's part.htxag09 said:
I'm sure there will also insurance dollars at play.
And, yeah, probably cheaper than a few bollards. But are you suggesting they should have anticipated this incident at this one location? Otherwise, we're talking a few thousand bollards, minimum.
Just for grins, take this valve station. Dimensions are approximately 50' x 30'. You typically place bollards every 4' so vehicles can't squeeze through.
That station would have ~50 bollards. Each one is 8' of 6" Sch. 40 pipe. I'm not calculating the actual amount of concrete, so call it a full truck (10 yards) to make it easy, have 6 of them be removable so you can access the gates.
Pipe - $300 per, so $15k
Concrete - $1200
Labor @ 1/3 material cost - $5500
P&OH @ 15% - $3500
Total - $25k
I guarantee you that is a ton cheaper than even the lawyers fees they will fork out just to begin to deal with this. And this station is on the larger side. But even then, assume $25k for each one and you have say 100 of them you assess as high priority. That's only $2.5 MM. Which is still probably less than the lawyer's fees they are going to fork out, much less all of the other ways they are going to get dinged. Their insurance premium will go up by that much because of this incident alone.
*these are back of the napkin numbers and not to be taken as some type of 100% accurate estimate
Cheaper option than bollards and much easier to install:
highway dividers. Pre-cast, bolt together. Can remove with crane (install with crane).
Put that around the fence, either inside or out. They can stop most vehicles as well.
~egon
highway dividers. Pre-cast, bolt together. Can remove with crane (install with crane).
Put that around the fence, either inside or out. They can stop most vehicles as well.
~egon
You aren't stopping an intentional sabotage. If you put these in and someone wants to damage this type of site (and they apparently don't care about dying), they'll find a way. If it was accidental, these could help. I'm not at Energy Transfer or any midstream company, but I am in the upstream industry.
Here are a couple of screen grabs from Google. One an overhead view and one a street view.
Both of these locations are in southern Brazoria County.
The location in the overhead view is nowhere close to a road. The bullpen around those stations might be nothing more than a way to keep cattle from coming in and rubbing up in the valves or any smaller instrument tubing. It would probably stop a tractor that wasn't going too fast if one was mowing the right-of-way and the operator had a medical episode or jumped off from hitting nest of ground hornets or something.
The street view location shows more substantial deterrent from vehicular damage. Someone could still crash the gate and the chain link fence inside, but it's otherwise pretty well protected.
Both of these locations are in southern Brazoria County.
The location in the overhead view is nowhere close to a road. The bullpen around those stations might be nothing more than a way to keep cattle from coming in and rubbing up in the valves or any smaller instrument tubing. It would probably stop a tractor that wasn't going too fast if one was mowing the right-of-way and the operator had a medical episode or jumped off from hitting nest of ground hornets or something.
The street view location shows more substantial deterrent from vehicular damage. Someone could still crash the gate and the chain link fence inside, but it's otherwise pretty well protected.