To get back to a serious discussion rather than comically blaming the mayor of Dallas for a car wreck....


TISD board addressed the issue last night and it sounds like a majority would lean toward changing it if it came to a board vote. It also sounds like they will address it in the future but no clarification on when it will be an action item on the agenda. I didn't realize that it's a state law/policy that the board is the only body that can name the school (can't be a community vote).

And I liked Hager's comments about it being compulsory to attend the school in which you're zoned. That does make it different than something like a park or statue. Good comments by the ones whose comments were printed in the article and I hope they give the subject a good amount of insight and thought as they move forward.

Completely agree Josepi

Another good article...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-is-it-like-to-be-a-black-student-at-robert-e-lee-high-school


And my position is to change the name.

Dumpster Fire said:

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Another good article...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-is-it-like-to-be-a-black-student-at-robert-e-lee-high-school

And my position is to change the name.

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That is a good article.

Without defending the circumstances under which it was created and named, we should still be wary of these movements, lest our heroes change again. Lawn mower parents will continue to be lawn mower parents it seems. In a world where one can listen to, engage, and debate opposing ideas these names are not a threat. They do not hamper test scores and renaming the high school will do little for educational achievement which is the purpose of the school itself.

Solicit private donors to fund everything if you opt for the name change at least, don't take it from the education budget.

Names identify who/what you align yourself with.


Just ask your wives about changing names.

Dumpster Fire said:

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Names identify who/what you align yourself with.

Just ask your wives about changing names.

---

Do you really believe that dumpster fire? It's a false equivalence but not unexpected.

Names as they relate to schools and monuments are about power and who has it at a given time. But with the passage of time, and history, they lose the significance they once had. REL is not aligned with any contemporary confederacy or similar white nationalist movement. To read your post it is. That's a silly assertion. Identifying with MLK and Booker T. doesnt seem to be helping poor black kids either.

AGC said:

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Dumpster Fire said:

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Names identify who/what you align yourself with.

Just ask your wives about changing names.

---

Do you really believe that dumpster fire? It's a false equivalence but not unexpected.

Names as they relate to schools and monuments are about power and who has it at a given time. But with the passage of time, and history, they lose the significance they once had. REL is not aligned with any contemporary confederacy or similar white nationalist movement. To read your post it is. That's a silly assertion. Identifying with MLK and Booker T. doesnt seem to be helping poor black kids either.

---

You kind of touch on it in your own reply. The articles I posted lay it out pretty clearly that REL was named at the time because the citizens of Tyler identified with what they saw as a symbol of power and discrimination.

And yes, it has since lost significance and the citizenry (for the most part) is not aligned with the confederacy or similar white nationalist movement that used REL for towards that gain; or shouldn't be. REL (the name) aligns with those movements. Therefore, yes, we should change the name.

I don't see it as a false equivalence. Is it perfectly describing the situation? Of course not, it is an illustration and at some point, all illustrations fail. But to the argument about losing history or forgetting it, no one is losing history because of a name change. Wives do not lose their history or who they are because they change their names.

Dumpster Fire said:

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AGC said:

---

Dumpster Fire said:

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Names identify who/what you align yourself with.

Just ask your wives about changing names.

---

Do you really believe that dumpster fire? It's a false equivalence but not unexpected.

Names as they relate to schools and monuments are about power and who has it at a given time. But with the passage of time, and history, they lose the significance they once had. REL is not aligned with any contemporary confederacy or similar white nationalist movement. To read your post it is. That's a silly assertion. Identifying with MLK and Booker T. doesnt seem to be helping poor black kids either.

---

You kind of touch on it in your own reply. The articles I posted lay it out pretty clearly that REL was named at the time because the citizens of Tyler identified with what they saw as a symbol of power and discrimination.

And yes, it has since lost significance and the citizenry (for the most part) is not aligned with the confederacy or similar white nationalist movement that used REL for towards that gain; or shouldn't be. REL (the name) aligns with those movements. Therefore, yes, we should change the name.

I don't see it as a false equivalence. Is it perfectly describing the situation? Of course not, it is an illustration and at some point, all illustrations fail. But to the argument about losing history or forgetting it, no one is losing history because of a name change. Wives do not lose their history or who they are because they change their names.

---

It aligned with a historical movement that no longer has relevance. At this point it's just a name. It has no impact on the outcomes or daily lives of the students. A symbol without meaning isn't much of a symbol at all. The idea that black parents are worried about their kids saying the boogeyman's name instead of having a discussion about him speaks more to their inability to help their children navigate life and obstacles than it does Lee himself. The man was far more complex than the debate gives him credit for but they don't know that because the school system and parents have done a poor job preparing their children.

As a taxpayer it's a waste of my money with no return on investment. Leave it be. Better to remember the past than repeat it.

It is a false equivalence no matter how much you stretch it. Might as well start posting the 'All cities matter' meme from Harvey while you're at it.

Dumpster Fire said:

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And yes, it has since lost significance and the citizenry (for the most part) is not aligned with the confederacy or similar white nationalist movement that used REL for towards that gain; or shouldn't be. REL (the name) aligns with those movements. Therefore, yes, we should change the name.

---

Well, if that's true, and applying the same logic, then the current pro-name change movement aligns with CAIR and SPLC positions.


From CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations)-

"...changes all streets and institutions named after Confederates..."

https://www.cair.com/requesting-the-removal-of-all-confederate-memorials-flags-street-names-and-symbols-from-public-spaces-and-property

The SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center)-

"....
2. There are at least 109 public schools named after prominent Confederates, many with large African-American student populations.

Schools named for Robert E. Lee are the most numerous (52),...."

https://www.splcenter.org/20160421/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy#findings

And sure enough, Tyler's REL High School (and Hubbard JH) is a specific re-examination target (see page 34, pdf link below), along with about 100 more schools, 1500 public symbols, 700 monuments, and a handful of military base names and holidays across the nation.

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/com_whose_heritage.pdf




They'd be swallowing teeth if anyone was brain dead enough to stand within wingspan and accuse me of being aligned with CAIR or the SPLC. Or on the flip side, any white supremacist/nationalist movements.

AGC said:

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Dumpster Fire said:

---

AGC said:

---

Dumpster Fire said:

---

Names identify who/what you align yourself with.

Just ask your wives about changing names.

---

Do you really believe that dumpster fire? It's a false equivalence but not unexpected.

Names as they relate to schools and monuments are about power and who has it at a given time. But with the passage of time, and history, they lose the significance they once had. REL is not aligned with any contemporary confederacy or similar white nationalist movement. To read your post it is. That's a silly assertion. Identifying with MLK and Booker T. doesnt seem to be helping poor black kids either.

---

You kind of touch on it in your own reply. The articles I posted lay it out pretty clearly that REL was named at the time because the citizens of Tyler identified with what they saw as a symbol of power and discrimination.

And yes, it has since lost significance and the citizenry (for the most part) is not aligned with the confederacy or similar white nationalist movement that used REL for towards that gain; or shouldn't be. REL (the name) aligns with those movements. Therefore, yes, we should change the name.

I don't see it as a false equivalence. Is it perfectly describing the situation? Of course not, it is an illustration and at some point, all illustrations fail. But to the argument about losing history or forgetting it, no one is losing history because of a name change. Wives do not lose their history or who they are because they change their names.

---

It aligned with a historical movement that no longer has relevance. At this point it's just a name. It has no impact on the outcomes or daily lives of the students. A symbol without meaning isn't much of a symbol at all. The idea that black parents are worried about their kids saying the boogeyman's name instead of having a discussion about him speaks more to their inability to help their children navigate life and obstacles than it does Lee himself. The man was far more complex than the debate gives him credit for but they don't know that because the school system and parents have done a poor job preparing their children.

As a taxpayer it's a waste of my money with no return on investment. Leave it be. Better to remember the past than repeat it.

It is a false equivalence no matter how much you stretch it. Might as well start posting the 'All cities matter' meme from Harvey while you're at it.

---

Something tells me that if they vote to change the name to Barrack H Obama HS that you wouldn't be using the same logic to justify it and have the same line of thinking.

Stive said:

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AGC said:

---

Dumpster Fire said:

---

AGC said:

---

Dumpster Fire said:

---

Names identify who/what you align yourself with.

Just ask your wives about changing names.

---

Do you really believe that dumpster fire? It's a false equivalence but not unexpected.

Names as they relate to schools and monuments are about power and who has it at a given time. But with the passage of time, and history, they lose the significance they once had. REL is not aligned with any contemporary confederacy or similar white nationalist movement. To read your post it is. That's a silly assertion. Identifying with MLK and Booker T. doesnt seem to be helping poor black kids either.

---

You kind of touch on it in your own reply. The articles I posted lay it out pretty clearly that REL was named at the time because the citizens of Tyler identified with what they saw as a symbol of power and discrimination.

And yes, it has since lost significance and the citizenry (for the most part) is not aligned with the confederacy or similar white nationalist movement that used REL for towards that gain; or shouldn't be. REL (the name) aligns with those movements. Therefore, yes, we should change the name.

I don't see it as a false equivalence. Is it perfectly describing the situation? Of course not, it is an illustration and at some point, all illustrations fail. But to the argument about losing history or forgetting it, no one is losing history because of a name change. Wives do not lose their history or who they are because they change their names.

---

It aligned with a historical movement that no longer has relevance. At this point it's just a name. It has no impact on the outcomes or daily lives of the students. A symbol without meaning isn't much of a symbol at all. The idea that black parents are worried about their kids saying the boogeyman's name instead of having a discussion about him speaks more to their inability to help their children navigate life and obstacles than it does Lee himself. The man was far more complex than the debate gives him credit for but they don't know that because the school system and parents have done a poor job preparing their children.

As a taxpayer it's a waste of my money with no return on investment. Leave it be. Better to remember the past than repeat it.

It is a false equivalence no matter how much you stretch it. Might as well start posting the 'All cities matter' meme from Harvey while you're at it.

---

Something tells me that if they vote to change the name to Barrack H Obama HS that you wouldn't be using the same logic to justify it and have the same line of thinking.

---

It's almost like I said passage of time in my response for a reason, since that changes the meaning of things.

Fair enough: Martin Luther King Jr HS, Thurgood Marshall HS, Malcolm X HS.


Does your stance remain the same?

Stive said:

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Fair enough: Martin Luther King Jr HS, Thurgood Marshall HS, Malcolm X HS.


Does your stance remain the same?

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I'm not leading the charge for any of those to change. Again, a discussion of the complexity of the human is pertinent to any hero. Hopefully they're telling their kids that MLK was a terrible husband and pastor who was recorded telling a prostitute he was "f***ing for Jesus" in addition to what he did for civil rights.

I never said you were. But I assume, based on your statements in the previous post that if the name were changed to one of those you'd be fine with it since having a name that has complexities and and some negative connotations is no problem and should simply be overcome by good parenting commentary.

Stive said:

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I never said you were. But I assume, based on your statements in the previous post that if the name were changed to one of those you'd be fine with it since having a name that has complexities and and some negative connotations is no problem and should simply be overcome by good parenting commentary.

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I understand why some would want it but I'm not sure it's appropriate, much like naming it REL in the 1950s was for a bad reason. We don't move past race by continuing to emphasize it. School names should not be political statements governed by passions of the moment. Right now I'm more disposed to Tyler High School #1 so that there are no winners or losers.

I could get behind that.

well john tyler can't be number #2 or else it would bring a new meaning to "Flush that John"... AMIRITE?!

Am I the only one that thinks that this was done tongue in cheek... like this can't be serious right?



That last interior image has me reeling...

Aggiebrewer said:

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I just don't understand why we need Ivy League rated buildings for public schools. It's a waste of money.

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Yeah, dromo07! Wtf? Can't you guys just design some ****ty portables or trailers for JT?

I was expecting uncle tom to come out and ask if we wanted sweet tea while a rebel flag was draped over the guardrail for the Robert E Lee video.

JT is not going to be Ivy League bruh its going to be modern just like your mom!

I was talking about dumpsters mom

dumpsters mom

FWIW, the flagpole incident morning of the riots. The biggest bada$$ senior, well known for not backing down, did start the impromptu singing around the pole. (They had just closed Emmett Scott, the TISD had a plan to integrate which is the model now but the Feds wouldn't let them, and the students didn't want to lose their heritage either). An ex-Marine teacher (great man) whips off his belt and starts swinging it at both sides, buckle on the swinging end. Don't know if or how many ppl it hit but it stopped it all right then and there! Think it was that afternoon that everyone "swarmed" out of the gym.

A year later, said senior is at A&M in the corp (Vietnam is still going.) Being the type of guy he is, he is not going to take the freshman hazing. After a few days of it, he and a friend who reluctantly stood by him, start at one end of their dorm hallway confronting and/or fighting their senior officers. There is a very good chance he did some damage. Not long after, he is told by his officer to lay on his back and cover his face and dont' breathe until it's over. You guessed it, he is quadded in the worst way, human feces and no telling what else, falling from the rooftop. Corp can't have that happening!

The names of Robert E. Lee and John Tyler high schools will NOT be changed! Yeeehaaah The Tyler ISD Board just withdrew the request that 2 of the members had put forth. Congratulations to Tyler, of all places, for taking a stand. I have to admire Rev. Orenthia Mason, one of the two, who decided to put education above all else and obviously give it some deep consideration.

I know this is tangential but I have a few thoughts floating around in my head from Santa Fe, the food coming and going thread, and this.

What are thoughts on a small school movement (micro schools )?

Some on the politics board debated whether school size is a factor in creating conditions for kids to slip through the cracks. Certainly public schools don't exist to cultivate character and have no overarching morality to impart to children. Small schools would allow teachers to be more involved and older kids could interact with younger ones more regularly.

We happen to have a ton of vacant real estate all over town. Near stein mart, Brookshire's east of town across from planet fitness, the macy's Building, downtown, etc. Why not diffuse the students into smaller environments with the vacant real estate and save the large facilities for cross-disciplinary activities or opportunities, like sports and fine arts? Get rid of diversity and admin positions and hire teachers instead.

Rename the schools after parts of town instead of people and be done with naming controversy.

Ok, that's all I've got. Tear it apart now.