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at various points in his career he averaged 19 points, 14 rebounds, 3.6 blocks, and 5 assists
Pretty versatile. Kevin Garnett in his prime at 6'11" and 220 is pretty comparable.
Robert Horry settles the Olajuwon v Duncan debate
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Last: 12 yr ago by aggie93
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Pretty versatile. Kevin Garnett in his prime at 6'11" and 220 is pretty comparable.
I agree that rings are overrated to some extent. It's a team sport. It's rare for 1 guy to be able to carry an otherwise mediocre team to a title (it requires a lot of luck). Go back to the late 1980s right after Jordan scored 60 or 70 against the Celtics in a win or go home closeout game that the Bulls lost. Would you have said that he was a choker? No. You say "holy sheet, that guy scored 60+!" That was far more than his share. But at the end of the day, it's a team sport. 1 guy can't do everything. There are some really fantastic players that missed titles because they just never had the right help or they got some unlucky bounces that were completely out of their control.
That said, Malone versus Duncan is laughable. You poll the hundred people with the most basketball knowledge and 95+ say Duncan. Better teammate, better leader, better defender, and about equal on offense. Duncan is just better.
As for whoever said Shaq is better hands down, no contest: really? Duncan is a much better FT shooter (even including his mediocre years), he's a better man to man defender, he's a far better help defender, and he actually has an outside offensive game. I'm pretty sure every > 10' shot Shaq made is in his career highlight reel.
Shaq was an unstoppable force near the basket. Best in history in that regard (and that argument isn't close, except for maybe Wilt, but different ages, so it's more or less pointless to have that discussion). But Shaq had some weaknesses that undoubtedly hurt his team. Duncan really doesn't have any.
Finally:
I'd counter that Duncan can be every bit as dominant. Remember his 2003 finals? He AVERAGED 17 rebounds and more than 5 blocks/game. Yea his 24pts/game was a little south of a Jordan or Kobe-esque 30+, but you can't ignore the rebounding and blocking numbers just because they aren't as sexy as prolific scoring. Likewise, you can't ignore the fact that his presence in the paint has often made teams abandon any attempt at an inside game. Nor can you look past his perfect help defense, which has forced a bazillion bad shots and changed literally hundreds of games. He's been doing all that for 15+ years.
Yea, he's not the prolific scorer that Kobe is, but to say he can't take over a game is not backed up by history. He's been dramatically altering and then ruining opposing teams' gameplans since the day he arrived in the NBA. Also, there really is something to the notion that he's too good a teammate to be a 30 points/game guy night after night. He'd rather win than put up big numbers, especially if in doing so he can build his teammates' confidence. That said, when the rest of the team isn't getting it done and the burden falls on him, he's never had any problems scoring 35+.
That said, Malone versus Duncan is laughable. You poll the hundred people with the most basketball knowledge and 95+ say Duncan. Better teammate, better leader, better defender, and about equal on offense. Duncan is just better.
As for whoever said Shaq is better hands down, no contest: really? Duncan is a much better FT shooter (even including his mediocre years), he's a better man to man defender, he's a far better help defender, and he actually has an outside offensive game. I'm pretty sure every > 10' shot Shaq made is in his career highlight reel.
Shaq was an unstoppable force near the basket. Best in history in that regard (and that argument isn't close, except for maybe Wilt, but different ages, so it's more or less pointless to have that discussion). But Shaq had some weaknesses that undoubtedly hurt his team. Duncan really doesn't have any.
Finally:
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But as a Rockets fan with zero ties to LA or SA, Kobe is the clear winner every time. He is the closest player we've ever seen to Jordan. His ability to take over a game is unmatched by anyone else in his time
I'd counter that Duncan can be every bit as dominant. Remember his 2003 finals? He AVERAGED 17 rebounds and more than 5 blocks/game. Yea his 24pts/game was a little south of a Jordan or Kobe-esque 30+, but you can't ignore the rebounding and blocking numbers just because they aren't as sexy as prolific scoring. Likewise, you can't ignore the fact that his presence in the paint has often made teams abandon any attempt at an inside game. Nor can you look past his perfect help defense, which has forced a bazillion bad shots and changed literally hundreds of games. He's been doing all that for 15+ years.
Yea, he's not the prolific scorer that Kobe is, but to say he can't take over a game is not backed up by history. He's been dramatically altering and then ruining opposing teams' gameplans since the day he arrived in the NBA. Also, there really is something to the notion that he's too good a teammate to be a 30 points/game guy night after night. He'd rather win than put up big numbers, especially if in doing so he can build his teammates' confidence. That said, when the rest of the team isn't getting it done and the burden falls on him, he's never had any problems scoring 35+.
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Maybe his horrendous injuries disqualify him, but Bill Walton should probably be in the conversation for most versatile big men. Rightfully never really gets into discussions for great players because he was never able to put together a stretch of full seasons, but at various points in his career he averaged 19 points, 14 rebounds, 3.6 blocks, and 5 assists.
[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 5/30/2013 2:31p).]
Walton was before my time so I can't really comment on it, but those are some very impressive numbers.
quote:quote:
at various points in his career he averaged 19 points, 14 rebounds, 3.6 blocks, and 5 assists
Pretty versatile. Kevin Garnett in his prime at 6'11" and 220 is pretty comparable.
Garnett was an athletic freak in his prime. There wasn't a whole lot he couldn't do on offense. Wasn't ever quite as good of a defender as Duncan, but as a Spurs fan he gave me more than my fair share of headaches.
quote:Duncan was amazing in 2003 but he was being blocked out on those rebounds by Jason Collins. The 03 Eastern Conference may have been the weakest conference ever.
Remember his 2003 finals? He AVERAGED 17 rebounds and more than 5 blocks/game
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That said, Malone versus Duncan is laughable. You poll the hundred people with the most basketball knowledge and 95+ say Duncan. Better teammate, better leader, better defender, and about equal on offense. Duncan is just better.
Per 36 minutes Malone has more ppg, apg, steals per game, and a better FG% FT%...so I'm unclear how, according to you, Duncan is equal offensively and clearly better defensivley when the numbers don't support that...
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Wasn't ever quite as good of a defender as Duncan
Per 36 minutes Garnett had twice as many steals and only .8 blocks per game vs Duncan so I'm not sold on Duncan being the better defender either.
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Duncan was amazing in 2003 but he was being blocked out on those rebounds by Jason Collins.
What are you trying to say bro?
Eddie House or Jason Kapono? I'd go Kapono because he's a deadly shot from 3. House has his moments but not nearly as prolific as Kapono
quote:quote:
Duncan was amazing in 2003 but he was being blocked out on those rebounds by Jason Collins.
What are you trying to say bro?
Was wondering the same thing
Jason Collins was setting them fruity screens during that series.
Really? You want to base defensive ability on steals/game? You are saying that since X had more steals/game than Y, the numbers show that X is a better defender?
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Really? You want to base defensive ability on steals/game? You are saying that since X had more steals/game than Y, the numbers show that X is a better defender?
I'd asy it's not a bad place to start...or is this one of those dicussions that has not empirical evidence other than your opinion on the matter? If so, I wasn't aware of the qualifications so I apologize...
Blocks and steals don't determine who is the best defender. Duncan is the best help defender of the modern era not because he comes out of nowhere for the posterizing block but because the offense never gets anywhere close to the paint. His blocks are icing on the cake... a lot of icing, because he gets a piece of a ridiculously high percentage of the few layups attempted while he is on the court.
Similarly, he doesn't get a bunch of steals because his defense is predicated on being in position. If you jump passing lanes and reach in to swipe the ball, you risk putting yourself out of position or committing a foul.
Larry Sanders blocks a lot of shots, but he's not a great defender. Chris Paul gets a lot of steals, but he gives up tons of layups and open shots. Bruce Bowen, love him or hate him, was one of the best perimeter defenders in the game and averaged less than a steal per game.
Similarly, he doesn't get a bunch of steals because his defense is predicated on being in position. If you jump passing lanes and reach in to swipe the ball, you risk putting yourself out of position or committing a foul.
Larry Sanders blocks a lot of shots, but he's not a great defender. Chris Paul gets a lot of steals, but he gives up tons of layups and open shots. Bruce Bowen, love him or hate him, was one of the best perimeter defenders in the game and averaged less than a steal per game.
As for FG%:
Malone shot .516 for his career during the regular season whereas Duncan is at .507. However, Duncan is at .499 for the playoffs. Malone shot .463. Also, I think Duncan stretches the floor a bit more with his outside shot.
So yea, I'd say it all evens out more or less.
Malone shot .516 for his career during the regular season whereas Duncan is at .507. However, Duncan is at .499 for the playoffs. Malone shot .463. Also, I think Duncan stretches the floor a bit more with his outside shot.
So yea, I'd say it all evens out more or less.
Oops, didn't notice that it was prepy. Wouldn't have wasted my time responding if I had.
quote:
Per 36 minutes Malone has more ppg, apg, steals per game, and a better FG% FT%...so I'm unclear how, according to you, Duncan is equal offensively and clearly better defensivley when the numbers don't support that...
Per 36 minutes Garnett had twice as many steals and only .8 blocks per game vs Duncan so I'm not sold on Duncan being the better defender either.
Per 36 steals blocks
Malone 1.4 0.8
Garnett 1.3 1.5
Duncan 0.8 2.3
So Malone and Garnett average about a half a steal more per 36, but are both almost an entire block less than Duncan, but the numbers suggest that Duncan's an inferior defender to both?!?
quote:
So Malone and Garnett average about a half a steal more per 36, but are both almost an entire block less than Duncan, but the numbers suggest that Duncan's an inferior defender to both?!?
I'm pretty sure I said it's a good place to start...not that it makes Duncan inferior...you apparently have a flare for the dramatic.
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Oops, didn't notice that it was prepy. Wouldn't have wasted my time responding if I had.
I'd have preferred you didn't as well...but there's always 2011 sir.
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I'd asy it's not a bad place to start...or is this one of those dicussions that has not empirical evidence other than your opinion on the matter? If so, I wasn't aware of the qualifications so I apologize...
Actually, steals/game is a horrible place to start, especially when we're only talking about 1-2 steals/game. That's insignificant when a typical game consists of 80-100 possessions/game per team. Great defenders play good, smart defense on 90%+ of possessions, not just 1-2 (which is all steals show).
Also, blocks are the preferred stat for bigmen (which favor Duncan by a mile). That said, blocks are a somewhat flaw stat for the same reason. 2-3 blocks/game don't affect a game all that much when it's 80+ possessions per team.
Overall, steals and blocks are a pleasant bonus, nothing more.
Let's go with defensive teams:
Malone:
3x First Team
1x Second Team
Duncan:
8x First Team
6x Second Team
Again, it isn't close. Duncan is unanimously considered a considerably better defender.
[This message has been edited by Deputy Travis Junior (edited 5/30/2013 3:44p).]
quote:i don't know what you're inferring sir. I'm just pointing out the Nets front court wasn't very good.quote:quote:
Duncan was amazing in 2003 but he was being blocked out on those rebounds by Jason Collins.
What are you trying to say bro?
Was wondering the same thing
ask anyone outside of San Antonio and Houston over the age of 35 and they would say Hakeem > Duncan
Also, if you're into advanced stats, Duncan's defensive rating is second best all time at 95.30. Garnett is 23rd at 98.95. Malone is 59th at 101.05
[This message has been edited by West Texan (edited 5/30/2013 3:50p).]
[This message has been edited by West Texan (edited 5/30/2013 3:50p).]
Stay on topic.... 
'Hakeem Olajuwon Top 10 Career Plays .'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m8OeZWbcOE
'Hakeem Olajuwon Top 10 Career Plays .'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m8OeZWbcOE
quote:haha you just wasted 5 minutes of your life explaining basic basketball to prepyag. The guy who thought that Karl Malone and Moses Malone are the same person.
Oops, didn't notice that it was prepy. Wouldn't have wasted my time responding if I had.
well **** I feel dumb now
Nobody has a thought on Kapono or House?
In the mean time:
Hakeem>Duncan
Shaq>Duncan
Malone>Duncan
In the mean time:
Hakeem>Duncan
Shaq>Duncan
Malone>Duncan
Shaq was insanely good at the things he was good at but very bad at the things he was not good at. He's got that long tail at the end of his career that really brings the numbers down, making it tough to do good statistical comparisons with current players. Absolute force of nature in the low block.
The real tragedy of O'Neal is that he left something on the table. Put Duncan's work ethic in Shaq's body and he's the GOAT rather than somewhere in the top 5-10.
The real tragedy of O'Neal is that he left something on the table. Put Duncan's work ethic in Shaq's body and he's the GOAT rather than somewhere in the top 5-10.
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LMAO @ preppyag. What a moron. Clearly the guy just started watching basketball and decided to root for the Heat since they won the most recent Championship. That's the only explanation
Yep, that's what I did...so my basketball is perfect; the heat win and the mavs suck; and with Cuban running things it should stay that way for a good minute...can't get much better than that
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haha you just wasted 5 minutes of your life explaining basic basketball to prepyag. The guy who thought that Karl Malone and Moses Malone are the same person.
It must be fun to be a mavs fan...you can make things up like this, or that the 2011 title run is the best in NBA history, or that Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams are coming to Dallas, Dirk is a top 10 player all time and actually believe it enough to post it on a public forum. How very "texas tech" of you sir...
I don't think you're arguing with any Mavs fans.
^
Let him go, man. He's on a roll
Let him go, man. He's on a roll
Yea Prepy you're arguing with a bunch of non Mavs. You're just so used to it, it comes natural. So try again
quote:
^
Let him go, man. He's on a roll
Your on a roll fajjot
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