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championships back it up.

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This is why I always say Earl Cureton was a better player than Karl Malone.

Lol @ Malone being better than Duncan.

No. No. No. It's seriously not even a debate. Championships, eye test, skill set. Duncan wins running away.

And Kobe is likely better overall, but if Duncan finds a way to win another its closer than most people think.

my favorite Raptor of all time.

Hakeem was a better player. Duncan has had a better career.

Neither touches Shaq or Kobe

What a piece of **** this prepy guy is

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Jason Collins was setting them fruity screens during that series.

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Jumping in to the BO board's 100th incarnation of this exact thread to point out the underrated post.

How about the 37 and 16 he did against Shaq and Kobe ON THE ROAD to close out the Lakers in '03 and end their 3 Title run? How about the near Quad Double that was a Triple Double and 20/20 to close out the Nets in Game 6?

Duncan played in the greatest period of PF ever in the NBA and towered above them all. Malone was still in his prime at the beginning of Duncan's career and he slammed the door on any chance of the Jazz ever competing again. Garnett was in his prime in Minnesota. Dirk was in his prime in Dallas. He powered through them all. He also won more than a few battles with Shaq and has had the stronger overall career. As mentioned Shaq was a one trick pony, give him the ball inside of 10 feet and he was nearly unstoppable but that was his entire game.

It's also hilarious to see some of the folks looking at stats as the measure of greatness. If you want to look at greatness look at who got the All NBA votes and All Star appearances, especially because Duncan was the "anti superstar" and was from a small market and yet his stats there are ridiculous.

In 14 Seasons he has made the AS Team, the All NBA Team, and the All NBA Defensive Team EVERY SEASON. Hakeem and Shaq can't even come close to these accomplishments. Malone is at least somewhat in the ballpark if you discount the Titles (which you can't).

2X League MVP
14X AS

10X All NBA First Team
3X All NBA Second Team
1X ALL NBA Third Team

8X All NBA Defense First Team
6X All NBA Defense Second Team

4X World Champion

3X Finals MVP

Rookie of the Year

AS MVP

His teams have always won at least 50 games outside of the strike shortened year (when they won the Title). Outside of the '00 year when he was out for the playoffs the Spurs have gone to at least the 2nd Round all but one of the other 12 years Duncan has played.

Duncan has very impressive and consistent stats throughout his career. His stats per minute this season are not noticeably different than they were 5 or 6 years ago. The difference is he has never cared about stats. He has also always been rested when games were in hand or it was late in the season because the prize was always the championships. He has always made everyone on the team better because he doesn't force anything and he doesn't care about personal glory.

Duncan could also play another several years at the level he is at now or close to it if he chooses. He's in fantastic shape but more importantly his game never relied on freakish athleticism. He is all about basketball IQ and perfect fundamentals.

Go ahead and talk about how great Hakeem was if you wish but Duncan put him in the rearview mirror in at least 2007 if not sooner. He surpassed Shaq as well through consistency and longevity. Kobe is a tougher argument, he has a great resume and it's hard to compare a perimeter player to a big man.

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What I will say is that IMO Hakeem and Duncan are the two most complete post players ever. There just wasn't anything either of these guys didn't do well. The amount of different moves that both of these guys could use to consistently score is really unmatched by any other post player. They could shoot jumpers out to the midrange, score with both hands going over either shoulder, they both had really good turn around jumpers. Hakeem used ball fakes better than any other big I've ever watched and Duncan's jumper off the glass is something you just don't see other players doing. They also handle the ball very well for big men and, especially Hakeem, good passers. They're both elite defenders and extremely smart players. You can make arguments for other guys being better players or whatever, but no one was as versatile as these two.

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Well said. Any GM would start a team around either and be thrilled. Duncan's biggest advantage over Hakeem is maturity.

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Duncan or Karl Malone. I could go either way on this one.

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If you would honestly consider Malone over Duncan, you are an idiot.

Rings. Defense. It isn't even remotely close.

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from the eye test, Malone was much better than Duncan

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Then you are blind.

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Malone never won any titles, only won One MVP.

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Malone won two MVPs, but shouldn't have won either.

He won 1997 over Jordan. STFU. Jordan had 69 wins and outscored Malone by 2ppg [Jordan led the league].

Malone won 99 over Duncan and Alonzo. Duncan had the top seed in the league and later won the Finals and Finals MVP. Duncan 22/11/2.5, Malone 24/9/.6, Zo 20/11/3.9.

Simmons said in his book that Malone didn't deserve either one.

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It's funny, the same people who say "robert horry winning 7 rings shouldn't mean anything" will say "duncan has 4 ringzzz!!!!!" when comparing Duncan with other players.

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Rings are relevant if you are the top player on your team. Comparing Andrew Gaze's ring to Tyronn Lue's ring doesn't really do a whole lot for a comparison.

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Maybe his horrendous injuries disqualify him, but Bill Walton should probably be in the conversation for most versatile big men.

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Makes it tough to judge him there when he didn't play 70 games in a season until his second to last season when he was averaging less than 20 mpg. I know Bill Simmons would rather have his favorite 6th Man be ranked super high based on what he did in a couple broken seasons, but you can't really know what his peak was since he never really played a complete season. A shame too. He was very good.

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But at the end of the day, it's a team sport. 1 guy can't do everything.

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Some guys rise up and do everything they can to make their team win - even if they don't have enough to carry their crappy teammates. Other guys are Karl Malone.

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Shaq was insanely good at the things he was good at but very bad at the things he was not good at. Absolute force of nature in the low block.

The real tragedy of O'Neal is that he left something on the table. Put Duncan's work ethic in Shaq's body and he's the GOAT rather than somewhere in the top 5-10.

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+1. Also add in that the Lakers, Heat, Suns and Cavs couldn't wait to dump his fat ass, and that he constantly showed up out of shape for preseason. He and Kobe could have won several more and for years I thought it was Kobe that ****ed it up, but the general consensus is that Shaq did when Kobe surpassed him in 2003, then started railing little white girls.

As somebody who played with both in their prime, I wonder why Horry says it is 'Hands down' Olajuwon? My guess is he saw what both could do firsthand, and he realizes that Olajuwon was the more complete/dominant player in his prime.

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ask anyone outside of San Antonio and Houston over the age of 35 and they would say Hakeem > Duncan

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+1, Well said....

[This message has been edited by Texas A&M (edited 5/30/2013 11:09p).]

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As somebody who played with both in their prime, I wonder why Horry says it is 'Hands down' Olajuwon? My guess is he saw what both could do firsthand, and he realizes that Olajuwon was the more complete/dominant player in his prime.

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Maybe he believes it, maybe he has some bias because Hakeem helped him get his first ring, maybe he and Hakeem are still tight (both live in Houston) maybe he didn't like Duncan, maybe Parker ****ed his wife. Who knows.

Lol I'm pretty sure he believes it. Still, it's not like y'all are forced to take him at his word (although I certainly will)

Ok, so Hakeem has Robert Horry's opinion. Duncan has the trophy case and pretty much everything else.

I loved Olajuwon as a player all the way back to when he played for UH. Killed me to see them lose those Finals when they couldn't make a FT. It killed me as a Spurs' fan to see him beat up on Robinson (though that series has taken on a life of its own over time, it was still 4-2 and Hakeem had a MUCH stronger supporting cast). At his best, he was amazing and dominant. The problem was, he wasn't always at his best. At times he wasn't close to his best. He had some great talent put around him and only made it work those 2 seasons in the mid 90's. He couldn't get it done with Sampson. He couldn't get it done with Barkley and Pippen. For much of his career he was not the best Center in the NBA. At times Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq were better. I'd say he is close to Shaq but not quite. I'd say he blows away Ewing (though Ewing was better in college to Hakeem's credit) and above Robinson (even though Robinson owned the head to head by a healthy margin).

[This message has been edited by RAB91 (edited 5/30/2013 11:32p).]

Hakeem was great. Better than Robinson.

He doesn't touch Duncan.

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maybe Parker ****ed his wife. Who knows.

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Probably this

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Some All-Time Playoff #s.

Double-Doubles:
1. Magic Johnson: 157
2. Tim Duncan: 144
3. Wilt Chamberlain: 143
4. Shaquille O'Neal: 142
5. Bill Russell: 137
6. Karl Malone: 124
7. Hakeem Olajuwon: 97
8. John Stockton: 87
9. Charles Barkley: 84
10. Kevin Garnett: 80

Scoring:
1.) Micheal Jordan 5,987
2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5,762
3.) Kobe Bryant 5,640
4.) Shaquille O'neal 5,250
5.) Karl Malone 4,761
6.) Julius Erving 4,580
7.) Tim Duncan 4,482
8.) Jerry West 4,457
9.) Larry Bird 3,897
10.) John Havlicek 3,776
11.) Hakeem Olajuwon 3,755

Rebounding:
1.) Bill Russell 4104
2.) Wilt Chamberlain 3913
3.) Shaquille O'Neal 2508
4.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2481
5.) Tim Duncan 2437
6.) Karl Malone 2062
7.) Wes Unseld 1777
8.) Robert Parish 1765
9.) Elgin Baylor 1724
10.) Larry Bird 1683
11.) Dennis Rodman 1676
12.) Hakeem Olajuwon 1621

Blocks:
1. Tim Duncan 506
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 476
3. Hakeem Olajuwon 472
4. Shaquille O'Neal 459
5. David Robinson 312
6. Robert Parish 309
7. Patrick Ewing 303
8. Julius Erving 293
9. Kevin McHale 281
10. Dikembe Mutombo 251

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Olajuwon had 6 seasons during his athletic peak/prime where he finished outside the top 5 in voting..

Rookie season: 12th in MVP voting, behind such players as Terry Cummings, Sidney Moncrief, Calvin Natt, Alex English and his own teammate Ralph Sampson..

1987: 7th in MVP voting, behind McHale, Wilkins and Barkley..

1988: 7th in MVP voting, behind Barkley, Drexler and Wilkins, just ahead of Malone..

1990: 7th in MVP voting, behind Malone, Ewing and Robinson..

1991: 18th in MVP voting..this one was due to an injury where he only played around 60 games, but he finished behind his own teammate Kenny Smith..

1992: Didn't receive any votes at all..




Duncan had 2 seasons where he finished outside of the top 5..

2006: 8th in MVP, injuries(battling PF all year)..

2008: 7th in MVP, probably the last season where you could say he was in his prime..

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Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 14× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011,2013)
# 10× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007,2013)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 6× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010,2013)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)

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Robinson vs Hakeem h2h stats for career.

Would Duncan win a championship during the prime MJ era?

That is the question.

Great player comparison though.

Hakeem's '94 title, Duncan's '03 title and Dirk's '11 title are three of the most impressive title runs in the history of the NBA when you consider their supporting casts. (Dirk's run being #1 of course when you considering everything else.)

[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 5/31/2013 1:36a).]

[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 5/31/2013 1:37a).]

[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 5/31/2013 1:38a).]

Allen Iverson is the STEALS champion.

GOAT DEFENSIVE PLAYER

Duncan has had the better career, but if I'm picking a player to build a team around, I'm picking Olajuwon over Duncan. Rings aren't the end all be all. Otherwise Emmitt Smith is a better running back than Barry Sanders. Duncan has played on much better teams, but he also wasnt dealing with Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics and Jordan's Bulls. Tim Duncan and the same Spurs teams have zero championships if they played in the same era as Olajuwon. I think Ojajuwon averages 30 points a game if he was in his prime right now.

Olajuwon was an awesome player. No doubt about it but his peak was only for like 2 or 3 seasons and people act like he did that his whole career.

His legacy is extremely inflated today.

He averaged 23 points, 3.5 blocks and 12 rebounds his 2nd season. That ain't sucking.

The whole "Jordan era" argument is pretty flawed itself.

On the sunrise of the Jordan era, Bird and Magic were both on the cusp of retirement and their teams were pretty much irrelevant at that point.

The Kobe + Shaq Lakers teams were better than any team that Jordan had to go through to win a championship. The Kobe-Shaq Lakers were better than the Payton-Kemp, Barkley-Johnson teams and the only thing that comes close is the Malone-Stockton combo but I would still argue that the Kobe-Shaq Lakers were better than any teams Utah put out in the 90s.

Duncan also had to go through the most dominant big man of the past 40 years from 99-04 and came away with 2 titles doing it.

I wasn't really talking about stats wise. Obviously if you go strictly by numbers he had a lot of excellent seasons. But he wasn't leading his team to deep into the playoffs every season.

His teams were getting bounced in the first round virtually every season after his sophomore year. Knocked out in the first round like 5 out of 6 seasons after that. That doesn't seem that dominant to me. Just MO.

But Hakeem came into the NBA in the middle of the Magic / Bird era and hit his prime in the Jordan era. I'd put all three of those teams ahead of any team in the last 15 years.

You can't really fault him on those early playoff exits when he played on some really bad Rockets teams. He carried them to the finals his 2nd season and then Sampson was done after that and the Rockets have nobody. It would be like Duncan playing without Parker or Ginobli. How many rings does he have?

Yeah I was responding to the person who just said the "Jordan Era".

I wasn't talking about the Magic and Bird era. Obviously that is a different story.

He still wasn't getting bounced out by Bird, Jordan and Magic every first round. He was also losing to teams like Seattle and Dallas and even missing the playoffs completely in 92.

I get the bad team argument but still. Your role players are only as good as the superstar at times and Duncan has made some guys look a lot better than they really are over the years.

But Tony Parker is the best PG in the NBA and has a finals MVP and obviously has nothing to do with the fact that he plays with Tim Duncan, the greatest PF of all time.

[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 5/31/2013 3:05a).]

Parker in 03 or 05 was no where near where he is now. Was a middle of the road PG at that point. Manu in 03 was a rookie and had a small role. Robinson was pretty much done and sticking a needle in his back before every game in 03 as well.

Duncan was also two plays away from leading the Spurs to 5 straight championships. (Fisher .4 in 04 and Manu and 1 foul in 06).

Duncan has won 70% of his games in his career. Has never won less than 50 games in a season. Has gotten out of the first round of the playoffs all but twice in his entire career.

Duncan got owned by Diop in OT in that game. FYI.

And the Mavs were up that entire game so don't act like it was that close.